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jdev@conference.jabber.org
Thursday, 5 March 2009< ^ >
MattJ has set the subject to: Jabber Development (in English) | Happy 10th Birthday Jabber! http://ur1.ca/0n8y | http://www.xmpp.org/ | Logs: http://logs.jabber.org/jdev@conference.jabber.org/
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[00:06:55] <KonD> Hello there is somebody that speaks Spanish?
[00:08:54] <KonD> is there some woman that wants to speak with some Cuban?
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[02:43:10] <uzix> Hi
[02:43:57] <uzix> Why pubsub service on jabber.org was deleted?
[02:45:16] <Asterix> I think it's because of memory consumption
[02:45:24] <Asterix> there are bugs in ejabberd about that
[02:46:24] <uzix> :( bad...
[02:47:14] <mcepl> talking about pubsub ... is there any howto for making my blog published through pubsub (and ejabberd)?
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[02:54:34] <jonas> Psi's whiteboarding, do they build upon http://xmpp.org/extensions/inbox/sxe.html ?
[02:55:16] <Kev> jonas: yes.
[02:55:59] <jonas> in that extension, i cannot find any way to create an element that looks like <prefix:name ... > can I?
[02:56:23] <Kev> that's a namespace.
[02:57:40] <jonas> yes i know, but a <new type='element' ns='NAMESPACE' .../> the NAMESPACE is not the prefix, it's the urn
[02:58:01] <remko> eh?
[02:58:31] <jonas> how would you use <new .../> to create <foo:bar/> ?
[02:59:26] <remko> ah right, i think i know where you're getting at. AFAIK, you cannot create non-tiny-SVG elements, no
[03:00:26] <jonas> not specifically talking about SVG, just SXE as a general XML editor method
[03:01:01] <jonas> anyone working on updating sxe?
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[03:12:17] <remko> jonas: do you need prefixes?
[03:12:32] <jonas> no
[03:12:48] <jonas> I'm talking barely theoretically about the xep here
[03:18:18] <remko> nobody's actively working on it i think, the guy to contact is joonas
[03:18:32] <remko> or standards@ if you have comments
[03:20:55] <jonas> ok. saw the close-to-the-end slide of the presentation saying whiteboarding was being worked on. i quetly assumed that ment SXE
[03:27:05] <remko> right, there is work being done, but the focus is currently on other things
[03:28:10] <remko> so work is going slowly there. If you have concrete suggestions or questions, you will get response on standards@ though
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[04:55:48] <Mazzachre> I am about to implement jabber (Tigase XMPP server) as transport agent in our system (via xmlrpc and XEP-0244)... There are several components in the system... I was wondering if you would recommend we write these as components or clients (or a combination) and what libraries are good? (We are java developers)
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[04:56:38] <Kev> Mazzachre: I would always start with clients, until there's a clear need for components.
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[05:09:10] <paulson> http://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0045.html example 17 seems to have a wrong headline (same as 16)
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[05:51:09] <Mazzachre> Kev: The problem I have, is, I don't have a clear library to implement a client... I want some library that can handle login, security (ssl/tls), and with stubs to handle incomming messages and sending with...
[05:51:35] <Mazzachre> I am also interested in using pubsub
[05:51:45] <paulson> haha, pubsub, haha
[05:51:49] <Kev> I think people use Smack, but I've never done so.
[05:52:06] <Mazzachre> paulson: Huh? Why haha pubsub?
[05:52:12] <paulson> Mazzachre: there should be one for java, for ruby xmpp4r seems to do its job, has callbacks, etc
[05:52:17] <Alex> Mazzachre: the Tigase guys have also some libs, but have not tried them myself
[05:54:09] <Mazzachre> Alex: Ya, Artur have some, but they are GUI oriented... And I am not looking to implement a client... I am looking to implement this into some other system modules...
[05:56:09] <Mazzachre> paulson: There are some libraries... But I don't know which ones are good... or even which ones are still supported... Smack should be?
[05:56:21] <Mazzachre> paulson: And what is wrong with pubsub.
[05:56:43] <paulson> nothing, its great, but its still not getting used at all
[05:57:43] <paulson> for libraries you might want to check yourself or see what others use
[05:59:29] <Mazzachre> paulson: Ya.. what I want is to use it to announce stuff... Like "new customer" and all the components that have cached customer lists will then update... etc...
[05:59:31] <Kev> paulson: I think you're mistaken about it not being used.
[05:59:52] <Kev> paulson: I know of some pretty large deployments - they just don't always announce what they're doing.
[06:00:08] <paulson> theres no client support
[06:00:39] <Kev> I think most clients support specs that use pubsub now.
[06:00:40] <paulson> at least not in major opensource/free clients, i actually dont care if $corp uses it;)
[06:00:46] <Kev> Psi does, Gajim does, Pidgin does even, I think.
[06:01:26] <Mazzachre> Kev: We are going to do alot of the testing work using Psi :D
[06:01:40] <paulson> Kev: they have some support, but nothing which makes pubsub usable
[06:01:56] <paulson> yes, you can browse items in service discovery
[06:02:44] <remko> paulson: 'usable pubsub' ?
[06:02:51] <remko> paulson: it uses pubsub to do the things it needs to do
[06:02:55] <remko> paulson: which is what protocols are about
[06:03:56] <paulson> you mean pep, usertune?
[06:04:00] <remko> yes
[06:04:19] <remko> Psi is not a PubSub administration tool
[06:04:26] <remko> if that's what you mean with 'make pubsub usable'
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[06:04:47] <paulson> thats probably true
[06:05:13] <Kev> 'supporting pubsub' isn't really a concept in its own right, any more than 'supporting files' or 'supporting the internet'
[06:05:36] <Kev> you only support usages of pubsub, and there are lots of people already using pubsub in their clients.
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[06:06:48] <Mazzachre> We support the internet :)
[06:06:55] <paulson> true, i mean: "clients do only very booooring stuff with pubsub"
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[06:08:05] <Mazzachre> paulson: We need more clients that can use pubsub to announce amogst some teenage girl and her friends that she have desided on a new nail polish color...
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[06:15:32] <remko> we call that presence
[06:15:47] <remko> but yes, microblogging over pubsub is being looked at
[06:16:48] <paulson> thats what i want;)
[06:16:53] <remko> http://xmpp.org/internet-drafts/draft-saintandre-atompub-notify-07.html
[06:17:26] <paulson> nearly exactly a year old;)
[06:17:41] <paulson> oh, its already expired
[06:18:33] <Mazzachre> Ya... microblogging... (Look girls I found this new color, exotic blue from designer "Pierre"... aint that cool! <picture>)
[06:18:40] <remko> http://metajack.im/2008/09/15/an_xmpp_microblogging_stack/
[06:20:13] <Mazzachre> Anyways... My question is, how much of the work am I supposed to do? :D I don't want to code yet another SSL/TLS stack and login and all that for each component/system/client/blob if there is a nice library that handles all that for me...
[06:20:48] <remko> Mazzachre: use Smack. In the worst case, you'll need to implement the PubSub bits, but that's extremely limited
[06:20:54] <remko> Mazzachre: if you're using PEP, that's not much code
[06:21:04] <Mazzachre> I want more to be able to extend an object and write handler for incoming packets and use a "send(packet)" function...
[06:21:10] <remko> Mazzachre: i don't know much about Java libraries, but Smack is one of them
[06:21:10] <Mazzachre> ok... Smack is the thing?
[06:21:16] <remko> well, 'the thing'
[06:21:25] <remko> i think it's the most used Java XMPP lib, yes
[06:21:52] <Mazzachre> ok
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[06:30:10] <Mazzachre> Anyone who have actual experience with Smack? :D
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[06:43:14] <SpYkEs> evening all
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[06:58:03] <Mazzachre> Is there a Smack developer/support conference?
[07:01:09] <Alex> there a devroom at conference.jivesoftware.com and the forums at ingite realtime
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[07:39:06] <elmex> how should a client detect that some conference service crashed?
[07:39:29] <elmex> i sometimes end up with being in a room without being in it anymore
[07:42:47] <Alex> elmex: you should get timeouts on requests and pings
[07:43:06] <elmex> pings? hmm, does it support xmpp pings?
[07:43:20] <elmex> but pings don't help much
[07:43:21] <Alex> interesting question
[07:43:36] <elmex> i mean, if it crashes and is up fast enough no ping might get lost
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[07:44:01] <Mazzachre> if it is up fast enough, there should not be a problem?
[07:44:07] <elmex> with IRC it wasn't a big problem usually, the server went down, and i with it
[07:44:29] <elmex> Mazzachre: there is, becuase my client doesn't know that it restarted and that i'm not in the conference anymore
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[07:45:02] <elmex> of course the participant information _should_ be something that the conference should store in a database... but the database might fail anyway
[07:45:52] <pavlix> elmex, failures are always possible :D
[07:46:04] <elmex> yes
[07:46:37] <elmex> but it still is annoying and brittle
[07:46:48] <pavlix> yep :D
[07:46:54] <pavlix> possibly
[07:47:35] <elmex> some mechanism of synchronizing would help a lot
[07:47:56] <pavlix> elmex, synchronization of what?
[07:47:59] <elmex> like receiving a session id from the MUC upon joining and asking the MUC "is my session still active" a
[07:48:25] <deryni> You'd still need to know to ask it, and if you are going to probe it simply sending it presence is as useful.
[07:48:42] <pavlix> elmex, why would you implement such things?
[07:48:46] <pavlix> elmex, any real purpose?
[07:48:46] <elmex> also the large timeouts for s2s messages often leave much to be desired w.r.t. user experience
[07:48:58] <Kev> elmex: there is one way of telling with a ping
[07:49:10] <Kev> elmex: if you ping yourself, in the muc, you'll get an error if you're not in it anymore
[07:49:21] <elmex> Kev: thats a good idea
[07:49:34] <Kev> That's what I do in sleek.
[07:49:45] <elmex> good idea
[07:50:19] <Alex> Kev: is this possible with all configurations?
[07:50:28] <Kev> Alex: should be.
[07:50:28] <deryni> What's the point of this ping? Over simply sending presence to the room?
[07:50:28] <elmex> hmm
[07:50:35] <Alex> or do mesages and iqs count as provate messages in MUC?
[07:50:49] <Alex> even if they are directed to yourself
[07:50:53] <elmex> right, do IQs work for private MUC chatter?
[07:50:53] <Alex> but I like the idea
[07:50:56] <Kev> deryni: if you send the presence to yourself, and you're not in the muc anymore, the muc will give you an error for sending to a participant when you're not a participant.
[07:51:03] <pavlix> deryni, what's the point of sending presence? over simply pinging? :D
[07:51:10] <Kev> Alex: If you're not in the muc, you're not sending it to yourself.
[07:51:20] <Kev> Alex: because you're not in the muc for it to be yourself ;)
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[07:51:58] <deryni> I mean sending presence to the room, not to yourself in the room. And the point would be that if pinging is just to check if you are still in the room, presumably to rejoin it if you aren't, why not just skip the ping and send the presence, that will either join the room or just re-broadcast your presence.
[07:52:02] <Alex> Kev: correct, and even if they are not allowed I get a error response and know that the server is alive
[07:52:27] <pavlix> deryni, it's two things that have different consequences
[07:52:44] <pavlix> deryni, why not to choose the one that suits better your needs? :D
[07:52:44] <Alex> deryni: the presence is a broadcast and causes lots of traffic
[07:53:21] <deryni> Do MUC rooms need to rebroadcast presence that is identical to what they last received from you? If not then a server could simply do nothing with it.
[07:53:27] <Kev> deryni: because if you're not in the room, you need to clear your state of the room.
[07:53:45] <deryni> If you aren't in the room you'll get back room occupants and history, if you are you won't.
[07:54:30] <Kev> Well, you may get room occupants at any time
[07:54:39] <deryni> Not in a chunk ending with your own presence.
[07:54:57] <Kev> That's not even true - you could have logged in from elsewhere ;)
[07:55:11] <deryni> Not sure I followed that.
[07:55:19] <Kev> I think, in fact, that if you were precise with the status codes you're receiving that you'll be ok.
[07:55:57] <Kev> But just logging in blindly will give you strange state (you can see this in Psi if the component restarts, and you send a presence change as you normally would.
[07:56:24] <deryni> I certainly imagine clients don't handle this correctly at the moment, but I'm not convinced they can't.
[07:56:36] <deryni> I think we have enough stuff in place for this to work.
[07:56:54] <Kev> It depends if you're interested in knowing when you've left
[07:57:00] <Kev> or just rejoining when that's viable.
[07:57:14] <deryni> Right, hence why I started by asking what the point of the ping was.
[07:57:22] <Kev> *nod
[07:57:28] <deryni> If automatic rejoining isn't the only reason for it then it is fine.
[07:57:37] <deryni> If it is then I think it is likely unnecessary.
[07:58:07] <deryni> There's nothing wrong with pinging to see if the connection is still alive to mark the room as dead.
[08:00:30] <elmex> it still is nice to inform the users that something went wrong, and that some messages might not get to him
[08:05:36] <pavlix> Gajim also behave strangely
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[12:20:14] <SteveG_> !uptime jabber.org
[12:20:15] <xepbot> jabber.org has been running for 2 days, 13 hours and 7 minutes
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[16:05:39] <nolan> Is anyone here familiar with how xpath handles namespaces? I'm playing with babylon, which matches up incoming stanzas via xpath to determine where to route them, and google is incredibly unhelpful at how to match <query xmlns:xmlns="http://jabber.org/protocol/disco#info"/>u
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[17:30:10] <nolan> If I'm running a component at my.component.net, can I route messages to/do service discovery for subdomainof.my.component.net too?
[17:31:30] <stpeter> hmm
[17:31:40] <stpeter> I've never seen that
[17:31:49] <stpeter> it might depend on the xmpp software you're running
[17:31:55] <stpeter> but I kind of doubt it
[17:32:35] <nolan> Hmm. I've seen it a couple times, mainly in transports that offer both IM and MUC connectivity.
[17:32:42] <MattJ> Prosody would allow it, not sure if that's correct
[17:33:09] <stpeter> MattJ: it's not disallowed, just creative
[17:33:12] <MattJ> Prosody would treat it as a different destination than my.component.net
[17:33:26] <stpeter> MattJ: that feels right to me
[17:33:38] <nolan> But I wasn't sure if they did that via two separate components, or just by answering #items discovery requests.u
[17:34:21] <stpeter> ok, time to catch the train, bbl via email :)
[17:34:37] <MattJ> See you stpeter :)
[17:34:40] <stpeter> ciao
[17:35:03] stpeter directs MattJ's attention to the message he sent on the infrastructure team list :)
[17:35:17] <stpeter> more on that later, probably this weekend :)
[17:35:20] MattJ looks
[17:35:26] <stpeter> ciao!
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