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jdev@conference.jabber.org
Monday, March 26, 2007< ^ >
Alex has set the subject to: Jabber/XMPP development (english spoken room)
Room Configuration

GMT-5
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[00:25:53] Ankit Singhal joins the room
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[00:47:04] <iono> Come on down, you're only going to hurt yourself.
[01:06:41] Alex joins the room
[01:10:04] <iono> WaCHOO *sniff*
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[02:06:55] <iono> only with wizwoz
[02:14:06] <iono> KazOO.
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[03:08:37] <Cruise> hello people
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[03:11:19] <Alex> hey Cruise
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[04:55:06] <iono> Zut alors.
[05:12:23] queltos joins the room
[05:15:37] <Kev> hrmm, anyone know where the VCS for XEPs is these days?
[05:15:42] <iono> the answer lies in the stars
[05:15:44] <iono> bugger off there and find it
[05:15:53] <Kev> 'thanks', iono
[05:15:59] reaxer_p joins the room
[05:18:10] <reaxer_p> Does anybody know why JID is not a XID?
[05:32:45] <Alex> Jid = Jabber Id
[05:33:03] <queltos> hehe
[05:33:09] <reaxer_p> I know, but the JEPs are now XEPs, right?
[05:33:20] <Alex> we can't change the RFCs because we changed the name of the foundation, and we don't want to
[05:33:52] <reaxer_p> ok, Alex, i don't mind, just wondering ;-)
[05:34:29] <Alex> there were some dicussions on the mailing lists about that
[05:34:51] <Alex> XMPP ID doesnt sound as good as Jabber ID
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[07:00:06] <iono> Mon dieu! Il y an une hache dans ma tete.
[07:00:42] lynx asks: iono: comme en delikatessen?
[07:00:59] <legoscia> iono: do you need help to remove it?
[07:01:02] <iono> always ~rarr~. precious
[07:03:36] <lynx> try burek avec aspirine ou cocaine
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[08:17:47] <lynx> xmpp id.. jid.. IM addresses in url syntax are the right thing to do.. no my-system-only-addresses like jids
[08:18:55] <TobiasFar> you don't say www:// either. you explicit set your protocol
[08:21:16] lynx asks: yes? you set manually when you want to access ftp: or mailto: from your webbrowser?
[08:21:34] lynx asks: you click on it, then a popup comes and asks which method.. yes?
[08:22:04] <TobiasFar> lynx: no, no
[08:37:35] ric.harvey joins the room
[08:37:54] <ric.harvey> hi room
[08:38:11] <ric.harvey> can anyone point me to some good resources for web based jabber clients
[08:38:16] <ric.harvey> pleaseeeeeeeeeee?
[08:38:29] <legoscia> that would be jwchat and jeti, i guess
[08:38:35] <ric.harvey> ok
[08:38:38] ric.harvey googles
[08:39:38] <ric.harvey> thx legoscia
[08:40:01] <ric.harvey> is there any work being done on making jingle work via a web browser / java client
[08:40:53] <legoscia> the Jive people are, i believe
[08:41:00] <legoscia> at least they have proposed an XEP for it ☺
[08:41:33] <ric.harvey> thats pretty cool
[08:41:56] <ric.harvey> i'm looking for a decent open source model to work on
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[09:06:07] <iono> m00se
[09:06:36] <Kev> quite, iono, quite
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[11:31:28] <grzywacz> hi
[11:33:18] <stpeter> hi
[11:34:44] <TobiasFar> hi stpeter
[11:35:04] <queltos> hi
[11:35:18] <stpeter> wow everyone is so friendly here :P
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[11:50:32] <Solarius> Hi stpeter :-D
[11:53:47] <stpeter> :P
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[12:04:24] <jberger> hi, was wondering if someone could step me through the process for ldap authentication (after it makes an ldapsearch call binded as the settings built-in to the c2s.xml, what happens next)?
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[12:26:33] stpeter tries to catch up on email
[12:30:09] <lynx> hi stpeter *grin*
[12:31:23] <stpeter> too much damn email
[12:33:06] <Chris Mullins> Did you ever get a moment to post that XEP I sent ya a week ago... (poke, poke) ?
[12:33:13] <stpeter> heh
[12:33:16] <stpeter> yeah
[12:33:20] <stpeter> I have a bunch of those to process
[12:33:43] <Chris Mullins> I'm trying hard not to press, but it's just against my nature...
[12:34:09] <stpeter> oh I am interrupt driven, I need to be poked
[12:34:31] Chris Mullins creates a PokePeterBot
[12:34:54] <MattJ> Easy
[12:34:55] <Chris Mullins> (Peter Picked a Poke of Pickeled Pokers?)
[12:35:53] <queltos> lol
[12:36:11] <MattJ> !do pokepeter = function () if room.occupants.stpeter then return "/me pokes stpeter" else return "/me is unable to poke people not here" end
[12:36:11] <xepbot> Syntax error: 'end' expected near '<eof>'. Cause: Monitor VLF leakage
[12:36:21] <MattJ> I never get it right :)
[12:43:58] <queltos> hrm..
[12:44:04] queltos hates doing applications
[12:44:32] queltos wants to do some coding \o/
[12:44:39] <grzywacz> :D
[12:44:40] <stpeter> heh
[12:45:14] <grzywacz> What is the xepbot anyway?
[12:45:15] <grzywacz> ;)
[12:46:19] <Kev> ooh, ooh, I know, I know
[12:46:20] <Kev> it's a bot for xeps
[12:46:20] <MattJ> !xep 45
[12:46:22] <xepbot> XEP-0045: Multi-User Chat is Standards Track (Draft, 2006-09-13) See: http://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0045.html
[12:46:27] <stpeter> heh
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[12:46:45] <grzywacz> Nice. ;)
[12:47:11] <xepbot> Would be nothing, had stpeter not kindly made an XML file of the XEPs for me :)
[12:47:29] <stpeter> heh
[12:47:40] <stpeter> xepbot: you rock
[12:47:47] <xepbot> stpeter, you too :)
[12:47:51] <grzywacz> O_o;
[12:47:59] <xepbot> hehe
[12:48:06] <stpeter> it would be nice to generalize xepbot so he could handle RFCs too -- "specbot"?
[12:48:13] <MattJ> !xmpp-core
[12:48:13] <xepbot> http://www.xmpp.org/rfcs/rfc3920.html
[12:48:31] <MattJ> I think there was an RFC command...
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[12:49:35] <TobiasFar> !runtime
[12:50:20] <MattJ_> !uptime-hours
[12:50:20] <xepbot> 68.641388888889
[12:50:45] <MattJ> !rfc 1801
[12:52:06] <TobiasFar> MattJ: it's up for more than 68 hours
[12:52:23] <MattJ_> Is good :)
[12:52:29] <TobiasFar> otherwise the cpu time of 15 minutes would be really bad
[12:52:39] <MattJ_> :D
[12:53:17] <MattJ_> There is actually something I need to do that will make him a little more CPU friendly
[12:54:08] <TobiasFar> has the lua compiler some kind of optimations which you can enable?
[12:54:23] <MattJ_> No... Lua is not compiled :)
[12:54:30] <TobiasFar> it is
[12:54:40] <TobiasFar> it is compiled to lua byte code
[12:54:44] <TobiasFar> and then interpreted
[12:54:48] <MattJ_> ^^
[12:54:50] <MattJ_> Yes
[12:55:00] <MattJ_> But that's done at runtime
[12:55:01] TobiasFar 1 MattJ 0 :P
[12:55:18] <MattJ_> Trust me, it is optimised already :)
[12:55:23] <TobiasFar> MattJ_: afaik you load bytecodes and run them directly
[12:55:58] <MattJ_> Lua uses a VM
[12:56:08] <MattJ_> At runtime you can pass wit whatever you like
[12:56:15] <MattJ_> *it
[13:01:16] <Kev> oh, xepbot's lua?
[13:01:24] <MattJ_> Yes
[13:01:35] <Kev> what an interesting choice
[13:01:46] <MattJ_> How come?
[13:02:08] <Kev> as far as I can tell, lua's usually used for extending programs
[13:02:13] <Kev> as a scripting language
[13:02:22] <Kev> rather than something in which to write programs in their own right
[13:02:38] <MattJ_> The main part is in C++
[13:02:51] <Kev> ah ok
[13:02:53] <MattJ_> Then, use Lua to define responses to events
[13:03:09] <Kev> makes more sense now :)
[13:03:20] <Kev> like eggdrop, only without the filthy tcl :)
[13:03:34] <MattJ_> Heh
[13:03:45] <MattJ_> You don't know that I'm writing a client in Lua :P
[13:04:37] <Kev> I don't, indeed
[13:05:27] <TobiasFar> MattJ_: the dead client? :P
[13:05:36] <MattJ_> Dead?
[13:06:00] <grzywacz> vaporware!
[13:06:00] <grzywacz> ;)
[13:06:13] <xepbot> Saved.
[13:06:18] <TobiasFar> is it already usable?
[13:06:32] <MattJ_> No, I said I'm *writing* one :)
[13:10:15] <MattJ_> !rfc 3251
[13:10:15] <xepbot> http://www.rfc-editor.org/rfc/rfc3251.txt
[13:13:41] <Chris Mullins> I keep wondering how people build all these clients in different languages, given the huge dependency tree that XMPP has.
[13:14:03] <Chris Mullins> For example, to start with you need: SASL, TLS, an XML Parser that can do streams & fragments
[13:14:03] <MattJ_> Heh
[13:14:20] <Chris Mullins> Then you need a stringprep library, and all sorts of other stuff.
[13:14:29] <Chris Mullins> Shortly here you'll need ICE (or something similar)
[13:14:45] <Chris Mullins> What lanaugages actually have this tree in place that can be used?
[13:14:49] <MattJ_> Bang goes the simple client philosophy
[13:14:53] <Chris Mullins> Java, C++ do.
[13:14:58] <MattJ_> C++ has
[13:15:03] <Chris Mullins> C# is pretty close, although we've had to write big pieces of it.
[13:15:08] <Kev> well, you don't need all those things
[13:15:26] <Kev> I mean, you don't need ICE in your client
[13:15:43] <Chris Mullins> Well, not yet. But soon. We'll (hopefully) all be doing file transfer that way soon.
[13:15:48] michael joins the room
[13:15:53] <Chris Mullins> The dependency tree in general is just... big.
[13:16:32] <Kev> I guess when you add it all up, yeah
[13:16:44] <Kev> but then, most languages allow you access to C libraries
[13:16:55] <Kev> and then suddenly you get most of it
[13:17:32] <Chris Mullins> But you then lose all the elegance and safety of your VM. And now you're tied to a compiled library, etc.
[13:18:08] <Chris Mullins> For us, eliminating non-manged (aka: compiled) code has let us be alot more agile.
[13:18:26] <Chris Mullins> ... and I would imagine that trend holds true w/ other langagues (Java, perl, etc)
[13:19:07] <MattJ_> I would rather rely on a compiled library, to be honest :)
[13:20:05] <MattJ_> perl was not intended for Jabber clients
[13:23:25] <TobiasFar> yeah...heh
[13:28:39] <MattJ_> !date %c
[13:28:39] <xepbot> Mon Mar 26 18:28:39 2007
[13:28:49] <MattJ_> doh xD
[13:29:12] <michael> UTC/GMT would be fine… :-)
[13:29:13] <MattJ_> My PC's clock is wrong
[13:30:11] <TobiasFar> that should be UTC MattJ
[13:31:01] <MattJ_> It is
[13:33:56] <Kev> that is UTC
[13:34:02] <iono> That is UTC ... more like at is thUTC, am i rite?
[13:34:25] <MattJ_> ^^
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[14:04:55] <stpeter> yum, lunch good
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[14:21:13] <stpeter> ouch, Psi is using way too much CPU, brb :)
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[14:40:17] <roast> has anyone expressed interest in implementing XEP-0136?
[14:41:44] <jeti> probably every client once there are servers supporting it
[14:41:49] <queltos> roast: yes.. until i came across 174 ;)
[14:42:05] <queltos> !XEP-136
[14:42:12] <queltos> !xep-136
[14:42:13] <jeti> sorry typed 163 :P
[14:42:27] <queltos> !xep-0136
[14:42:56] <Kev> Message archiving?
[14:42:59] <roast> yup.
[14:43:02] <Kev> yes, ejabberd are very keen
[14:43:08] <roast> 174... is...
[14:43:08] <Kev> Psi are quite keen
[14:43:12] <Kev> I don't know about others
[14:43:17] <Kev> 174 is link-local I believe
[14:43:20] <Kev> !xep 174
[14:43:21] <xepbot> XEP-0174: Link-Local Messaging is Standards Track (Proposed, 2007-03-14) See: http://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0174.html
[14:43:23] <roast> yea, it is.
[14:43:38] <jeti> I might implement that, it would be nice for my applet
[14:43:43] <Kev> which?
[14:43:53] <jeti> message archiving
[14:44:07] <Kev> yeah, it'd be nice
[14:44:26] <queltos> !xep 136
[14:44:27] <xepbot> XEP-0136: Message Archiving is Standards Track (Proposed, 2007-01-08) See: http://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0136.html
[14:44:35] <jeti> don't know about applets and link local
[14:45:13] <roast> okay. I was writing a proposal to implement an openid identity provider and service agent into both jabberd14 and jabberd2 but...
[14:45:17] <roast> hrm.
[14:46:49] <roast> so the second part of all this is that I worked on extending then JEP-0136 for gaim, adium and kopete last summer so we could store formatting and, potentially, media (what happens when we have a voice link, etc.)
[14:47:04] <roast> and I just found out that some projects want me to continue my work.
[14:47:23] lynx asks: isnt it easier to have a server on the local machine implement some local discovery, and let all clients work with that rather than bloating each client one by one?
[14:47:37] <Kev> lynx: for 174?
[14:47:40] <Kev> yes, that's the plan
[14:48:23] <roast> we felt that it would've been nice to be able to work on making 0136 a bit more general rather than redefining another standard.
[14:48:26] lynx asks: 174 sounds like something you put into a client.. you don't?
[14:48:35] <roast> and I see that 0136 is at Last Call o.o
[14:49:02] <Kev> lynx: I think most people would be happy with a locally run fake server
[14:49:15] <Kev> which looks like an xmpp server, but does 174 instead of s2s
[14:49:55] lynx asks: oh, so the client still needs to figure out itself when it's regular home server on the internet comes back up?
[14:50:10] <Kev> hmm?
[14:50:43] <queltos> finally...
[14:50:50] <lynx> my suggestion on the olpc wiki was that such a per-laptop server should also serve as the gateway to the internet as it comes available
[14:52:21] <Kev> to what end?
[14:52:50] <Kev> oh, I think I see
[14:53:55] <lynx> it's easier to have just one piece of code coupled tightly with the networking backend of the system.. be it wlan bluetooth or WAN
[14:54:09] <queltos> lynx: yes
[14:56:25] <lynx> i'm not sure if a lan broadcast is even necessary if you can have a list of stations from the wlan backend
[14:56:58] <lynx> detection is faster than polling
[14:57:48] <lynx> maybe.. dont know exactly how wlan operates
[14:59:06] <queltos> hmm.. and i dont know if it would be good to rely on things only available in wlan.. 174 is supposed to work in all kinds of local network isnt it?
[14:59:14] Alex joins the room
[15:00:29] <lynx> yes.. well.. http://wiki.laptop.org/go/Instant_messaging_challenges was the origin of the 'serverless' discussion.. so at least in that case a bonjour-like approach may just be unnecessarily suboptimal
[15:01:01] <lynx> or actually.. http://wiki.laptop.org/go/Talk:Instant_Messaging_Challenges
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[15:02:51] <Cruise> hello people
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[15:04:57] <grzywacz> hello!
[15:11:58] <queltos> lynx: hmm.. i think i don't get it.. what do you want to say?
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[15:13:35] <TobiasFar> hi Alex
[15:14:03] <Alex> hi Tobias
[15:15:53] <lynx> the radio hardware may already know what other stations are in reach.. so why periodically poll for them..? it only slows down your reaction time
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[15:30:47] <grzywacz> bye
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[15:47:49] <queltos> lynx: very interesting idea.. even though i think it is a more very low-level thing.. wouldnt it be more usefull to have a lower-level layer handle that sort of thing? i.e. if .. hrm.. no.. that doesnt work.. wlan would have to be handled special
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[15:54:02] <queltos> i'm off for today.. bye
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[16:41:27] <TobiasFar> gn8
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[17:16:33] <Nomar> hello
[17:17:00] <Nomar> any speak english or espanish
[17:18:23] <Alex Jones> i speak english
[17:18:33] <Nomar> hi alex
[17:18:41] <Nomar> where are you from
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[21:55:24] <Alex Jones> /nick
[21:55:34] <Alex Jones> /name
[21:55:36] <Alex Jones> blaeh!
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[23:30:07] <sturgislefty> Hello
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