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[01:23:18] <singpolyma> For service discovery (XEP0030) can my client safely always reply without presence leaks? That is, is the server expected to handle that part?
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[01:44:52] <Lance> singpolyma, the server is supposed to not allow delivery if there is no presence subscription (see security considerations)
[01:45:17] <Lance> but you'd be best to test that, because i'm not sure how well that is implemented in practice
[01:46:36] <Lance> oh, wait, no
[01:46:39] <Lance> that's just bare jids
[01:47:02] <Lance> singpolyma, so you will need to check yourself if you don't want to create a presence leak
[01:48:32] <singpolyma> ok
[01:48:39] <singpolyma> usually the security considerations section says that
[01:48:42] <singpolyma> but it doesn't on that XEP
[01:48:44] <singpolyma> so I was unsure
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[13:23:07] <fippo> humm... comparing the sec considerations xep 0030 and 0054 (vcard-temp) the latter is much more lax... likely because applying the sec considerations from 0030 would break muc avatars, right?
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[13:37:06] <aman7> hello
[13:37:21] <aman7> may i create applicaiton use matrix with asp.net?
[13:37:37] <aman7> using*
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[13:43:47] <aman7> ?
[13:50:19] <ermine> MattJ: do you know why BIND is a part of XMPP Core?
[13:50:42] <MattJ> BIND being the DNS server?
[13:51:31] <ermine> stream feature
[13:51:51] <MattJ> Resource binding?
[13:51:59] <ermine> yeah
[13:52:07] <ermine> not a part of XMPP IM
[13:52:08] <MattJ> Without resource binding there would be no full JIDs, and you wouldn't be able to route stanzas to clients
[13:52:17] <MattJ> or from clients
[13:52:44] <Zash> It's a core part of XMPP. You need it even if you aren't doing IM.
[13:52:49] <ermine> so server can bind resours too?
[13:53:17] <Zash> In theory
[13:53:27] <Zash> But no server does that
[13:54:00] <vorner> ermine: But you also have non-IM clients. These need a resource as well, but not, for example, roster.
[13:55:06] <Zash> It's like the DHCP of XMPP :)
[13:55:32] <ermine> weird
[13:56:05] <MattJ> Weird to give clients an identity? :)
[13:56:27] <Zash> binding instead of dialback would be neat for XMPP 2.0
[13:56:28] <Zash> or something
[13:57:19] <vorner> Isn't there some XEP to be able to live without dialback?
[13:57:34] <Zash> Why?
[13:57:46] <Zash> TLS certificates and SASL EXTERNAL is in XMPP-Core
[13:57:53] <vorner> I don't know. I think I saw one.
[13:58:21] <vorner> You could, for example, just resolve the domain name the server claims to be and see if the IP address it is coming from is one of the ones you found.
[13:58:22] <Zash> There's an informal XEP about that
[13:58:30] <Kev> Dialback itself is a XEP, if you just do -CORE, you don't need it.
[13:59:02] <Zash> vorner: That's pretty much equivalent to dialback
[13:59:16] <vorner> Yes, but with much less work to do on both sides.
[14:00:04] <ermine> namespace jabber:server requirs TO and FROM fields in stanzas, binding resource looks like usual IQ stanza but requirs to not use FROM and TO fields
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[14:02:35] <Zash> If you have performed resource binding, to and from have implied values if they are missing.
[14:02:54] <Zash> And the uppercase isn't required.
[14:03:11] <vorner> That's on jabber:client AFAIK, not jabber:server, is it?
[14:04:11] <Zash> resource binding looking like an iq stanza is just a legacy thing
[14:04:20] <Zash> Pretend it's a non-stanza :)
[14:05:24] <Kev> I don't like that.
[14:05:25] <Kev> :p
[14:05:34] <Kev> And why would you ever want to resource bind over S2S?
[14:06:01] <Kev> Resource binding provides a client with a full JID it is permitted to use, and the server then enforces that it doesn't use others.
[14:06:21] <vorner> Zash: It's normal iq stanza for the server, at least on c2s. The fact that you use implicit to and from does not matter (even if you don't know your from)
[14:06:25] <Kev> Servers don't need to ask permission to send stuff from domain/resource, if they want to, as they control the JID.
[14:06:28] <Zash> Kev: For explicit stream multiplexing
[14:09:53] <vorner> Wouldn't it be better to just add some new feature that'd allow you to authenticate as yet another domain, and then just keep sending stanzas with from of different domains there?
[14:09:57] <Kev> Zash: Which means, practically?
[14:10:09] <Kev> vorner: Yes, you can do that already.
[14:10:30] <vorner> /me didn't read all the XEPs, to be sure. Not enough time :-|
[14:11:58] <Zash> Kev: The Dialback protocol confuses me every time I look at it. The names are all backwards. I'd like something that wasn't dialback for explicit multiplexing. That's all.
[14:21:41] <fippo> zash: as long as you don't think "what madman wrote this xep" everytime you read 0220... ;-)
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[14:22:58] <Kev> He knows which madmen wrote that XEP.
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[14:26:56] <fippo> but heh, instead of discussing it you might review it -- it's in LC and this time I don't have this bad feeling that it needs a rewrite
[14:27:18] <Kev> Yeah. It was my intention to spend today catching up on my XSF stuff. That really went well.
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[14:30:23] <ermine> Kev: initially the question was why resource binding is a part of xmpp core
[14:30:44] <Kev> ermine: Yes, but I think MattJ answered that one - it's part of the core addressing and nothing works without it.
[14:32:24] <ermine> ok
[14:34:21] <fippo> unless your server does legacy auth (0078) at least
[14:34:45] <Kev> fippo: Right, unless you have some other method of binding a full JID.
[14:36:01] <ermine> using legacy auth with putting version="1.0" into stream header?
[14:36:24] <MattJ> Oh, 220 LC, I knew I'd forgotten something
[14:37:07] <ermine> LC?
[14:37:30] <ermine> seems jdev's abbrev
[14:38:08] <Zash> <abbr title="Last Call">LC</SPAN>
[14:38:36] <ermine> thx :)
[14:38:45] <MattJ> Now you can put a "Valid HTML5!" badge on your message, Zash
[14:38:56] <Zash> \o/
[14:39:15] <fippo> zash: \oXoXo/
[14:39:32] <ermine> xhtml? nonono
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[14:44:21] <Florob> I know I'm late, but can I point out that resource binding provides the client with its JID, even bare. The simple user name need not be the nodepart
[14:44:49] <Florob> *localpart
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[14:52:57] <ermine> next silly question: why clieht should put from into stream ehader?
[14:55:31] <vorner> It does not have to, but it can
[14:56:16] <ermine> there was used 'SHOULD'
[14:56:50] <ermine> interesting which any reasons
[14:57:23] <vorner> Does the spec say 'SHOULD'? Hmm.
[14:57:36] <vorner> Maybe to show it knows who it is. I don't see any other reason.
[14:58:21] <Florob> The spec says SHOULD, with two restrictions. a) If it know it's identity, b) after a security layer was set up. I still maintain that a) is never true, but somehow people in the WG disagreed.
[14:58:31] <ermine> yeah, spec says if you know who are you, you should say about it :)
[15:00:23] <Zash> But as Florob said, as a client, you don't know for sure until resource binding.
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[15:03:08] <fippo> well, it might enable a server to enforce certain auth mechanisms depending on who the user is
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[15:09:47] <louiz’> If it knows its identity* ;(
[15:11:06] <Florob> :( and I did so well correcting that on "its JID"
[15:11:39] <ermine> it is not easy that resourse binding must be used with content namespace of stream
[15:13:42] <ermine> so it is stanza
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[15:13:52] <ermine> not stream feature
[15:19:28] <Florob> Well, it is a mandatory to negotiate stream feature that resembles a stanza a lot, for historic reasons™.
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[15:22:03] <ermine> Florob: and what best practices for id value in such "stream feature"? :)
[15:22:59] <ermine> in rfc it uses "random" value (probably for high security)
[15:27:43] <Zash> Many use a fixed value.
[15:27:57] <Zash> id="bind" or somesuch
[15:29:35] <Zash> For iq in general, UUID, incrementing number etc should be fine
[15:31:32] <ermine> yeah, iq in general...
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[16:00:56] <Anuj> hi guys, I have read the definitive guide. I am looking for making a pubsub system but can't even think how to start.
[16:02:48] <ermine> just write helloworld
[16:04:24] <Lloyd> client or server?
[16:04:42] <louiz’> also why is it called “definitive”, since we know that many XEP will extend the protocol, and even the existing protocol is subject to changes?
[16:05:37] <Anuj> that's the thing, I have read the code for the desktop client using agsxmpp but that is just simple, because the server is already setup and the rosters are also present. but i can't seem to be going anywhere when I think of starting from scracth.
[16:06:10] <Anuj> the XMPP: the definitive guide book by kevin smith.
[16:08:10] <ermine> thick book?
[16:08:47] <Anuj> http://shop.oreilly.com/product/9780596521271.do this one
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[16:10:11] <ermine> pages 310, oh
[16:10:55] <Anuj> the books has all xml, it is hard to interpret what would be in the code.
[16:11:22] <Zash> I remember there being python examples
[16:12:10] <Anuj> yeah. but i am .net beginner, you can probably understand the situation :|
[16:12:21] <Anuj> .NET*
[16:12:46] <Zash> Maybe you should get a book on .NET then?
[16:15:30] <Anuj> http://xmpp.org/resources/books/ i guess there aren't any books on that.
[16:16:48] <mathieui> non on xmpp.org, indeed
[16:17:06] <mathieui> not on xmpp.org, indeed
[16:18:34] <Anuj> do you know of any such book?
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[16:19:36] <mathieui> search it on the oreilly website
[16:22:27] <Anuj> i am sorry but i could'nt find any other, except the JAVA and JS + Jquery one
[16:23:15] <Zash> I actually meant something like a generic book on .NET, possibly geared towards building network servers or something
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[16:25:05] <Anuj> i want to build a web client.
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[16:25:45] <Zash> Anuj: Then get http://professionalxmpp.com/
[16:26:24] <ermine> is jingle actual still?
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[16:27:40] <Zash> ermine: yes
[16:29:03] <ermine> Zash: and is developing still?
[16:29:30] <ermine> or there exists something better
[16:29:31] <Zash> It's used by various clients.
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[16:30:35] <Anuj> a web client that would be contacting to the server, storing user names, profiles, etc. like a member based website with pubsub functionality, I can't get the theory correct. When two people with their id registerd under different domains, say gmail and yahoo, how will they connect with each other on my site?
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