Logs for jdev

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[07:33:28] <fippo> kev: you dare not care about protocol aesthetics? :-)
[07:50:32] <Lance> fippo: any news on jingle/webrtc integration?
[07:51:07] <Lance> i'm at the point of having to write a sdp parser, and not liking it
[07:51:37] <fippo> lance: shall I ask my C*O for permission to release mine?
[07:51:47] <fippo> including the sdp<->jingle mapping
[07:52:09] <Lance> I just need sdp<->json, but yes please
[07:52:37] <Lance> what would the license be?
[07:52:50] <fippo> I'd go for MIT
[07:52:54] <Lance> excellent
[07:53:05] <Lance> I'm going with MIT for stanza.io so that works perfectly
[07:53:14] <fippo> in the meantime you might want to look at the mapping phono has
[07:53:29] <fippo> s/mapping/sdp parser/
[07:53:37] <fippo> https://github.com/phono/PhonoSDK/blob/master/modules/phono-js/src/main/js/phono.sdp.js
[07:53:54] <fippo> the jingle mapping is less elaborate than mine, but it has a javascript model for the sdp which I don't have
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[07:56:53] <Lance> hopefully i can get jingle working properly in stanza.io soon then. our plan is to convert conversat.io into an xmpp video/chat client
[07:57:13] <Lance> instead of using socket.io
[07:57:44] <fippo> yeah, I thought "why doesn't it use jingle and muc" when I initially saw it
[07:58:39] <Lance> because our guy that made it didnt want to deal with strophe
[07:59:12] <Lance> but, i've got a nice websocket xmpp library that exposes the data via json, so we're converting
[07:59:38] <fippo> ah... yes, dealing with strophe was the ugly part of that (-:
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[08:04:41] <Lance> basically, we've committed to building the version of hangouts that google didn't make :)
[08:06:11] <fippo> had a long discussion with simon about that
[08:06:21] <fippo> multiparty is still very hard in webrtc
[08:06:27] <fippo> and even google has not solved that yet
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[08:07:08] <Lance> as in multiplexing video sources instead of n^2 video connections?
[08:07:14] <fippo> yeah
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[08:08:18] <Lance> yeah, we're stuck on that one too. hence the low occupant limits
[08:09:20] <vorner> Will that be done on the server or the clients?
[08:10:07] <fippo> vorner: you either need an dedicated mcu/bridge (i looked into lynckia.com) or one client acts as one
[08:10:15] <fippo> chrome is not up to that yet however
[08:12:07] <vorner> It would be nice to get support into all the jingle-capable fat clients too (for conferencing). So it would be nice if there was a free MUC-like component capable of mixing sound and video too.
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[08:12:42] <fippo> yes. and more clients (swift @ kev) should do jingle -- google has given us a great tool with the webrtc lib
[08:13:07] <fippo> basically solving the problem that libjingle had
[08:13:53] <vorner> Yes, that's all cool for the masses that prefer to have everything in the browser. But I prefer my gajim, which (AFAIK) doesn't use webrtc.
[08:14:21] <fippo> gajim could have python bindings for webrtc.org
[08:14:24] <vorner> Isn't webrtc just javascript API to send stream of UDP packets forming some kind of sound/video stream?
[08:14:42] <vorner> Gajim has native jingle support
[08:14:50] <fippo> it is also the name for the c++ lib google released
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[09:22:19] <fippo> lance: did you point simon to the log? :-)
[09:24:19] <fippo> I should stop talking to people who aren't in the room...
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[10:22:44] <Florob> I wonder whether IPv6 multicast could be leveraged for multi-party WebRTC...
[10:23:57] <Link Mauve> It works over non-local links?
[10:24:10] <Zash> In theory ...?
[10:24:23] <Link Mauve> Last time I checked, it wasn’t (at least with my ISP).
[10:24:34] <Link Mauve> Last time I checked, it didn’t (at least with my ISP).
[10:24:57] <Link Mauve> Huh? Last Message Correction is disabled here?
[10:25:24] <mathieui> hu ?
[10:25:29] <mathieui> is it?
[10:25:31] <mathieui> right
[10:25:36] <louiz’> right
[10:25:48] <louiz’> it doesn’t seem to work on any room of this server
[10:25:55] <louiz’> that’s strange
[10:25:58] <mathieui> seems like the server filters out the subelements it doesn’t understand
[10:26:07] <louiz’> does the server filter things it doesn’t know about?
[10:26:41] <Zash> Lorem
[10:26:43] <Zash> Ipsum
[10:26:51] <Zash> Worksforme?
[10:27:00] <mathieui> doesnt correct
[10:29:56] <Zash> Does it filter unknown namespaces?
[10:32:00] <Link Mauve> mathieui, do we expose last message correction in our caps?
[10:33:46] <mathieui> iirc yes
[10:34:51] <Link Mauve> Maybe it’s Swift correcting the message before receiving the message back from the MUC.
[10:35:31] <mathieui> probably
[10:35:34] <mathieui> shouldn’t, though
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[10:41:59] <fippo> florob: i doubt this works because webrtc doesn't use raw rtp anymore...
[10:42:13] <Zash> wait what
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[11:05:45] <Florob> fippo, you mean the security layers would prevent that, or is there another notion of "raw" rtp I'm not aware of?
[11:06:41] <fippo> florob: yes. i don't think stun bindings and the consent stuff work on mcast
[11:12:51] <Florob> So, for peer-to-peer encrypted data we're pretty much stuck with 𝒪(n²) connections...
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[12:04:08] <fippo> yes. see http://bloggeek.me/multipoint-webrtc-intro/ for musings on that
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[13:23:56] <vorner> What happens to email sent to standards@xmpp.net from address not subscribed to the list? I didn't seem to get to the list yet (after several minutes) nor I did get a bounce.
[13:24:26] <0xAFFE> vorner, maybe moderation queue?
[13:25:02] <vorner> Hmm. Shouldn't I get back the „Your message is held for moderation, you may cancel it here“ message back, at least?
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[17:48:40] <Lloyd> URL for tonight's xmppuk broadcast, hope quality is ok (getting a better microphone asap) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RroA2NzzX64&feature=youtu.be
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[18:04:20] <psa> Lloyd: ok thanks!
[18:08:06] <Lloyd> about to get started but there's a good delay on the youtube broadcast. Hope microphone is ok!
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[18:11:46] <Asterix> sound's really strange for me for the moment
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[18:33:54] <Florob> inxeption
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[19:11:35] <Tobias> Lloyd, why is the sound soooo horrible?
[19:15:10] <MattJ> .
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[19:19:25] <Zash_> They must have made the codec for american english or something
[19:19:28] <psa> audio fine here
[19:19:45] <psa> heehee
[19:21:10] <Tobias> Zash_, yeah..i guess that's it
[19:21:10] <Tobias> it just gets confused by british
[19:22:07] <Link Mauve> I get a “no match: url_encoded_fmt_stream_map” error from quvi, is there something specific with that video?
[19:23:25] <MattJ> Link Mauve, maybe because it's live?
[19:23:46] <Link Mauve> Oh.
[19:24:17] <Link Mauve> I should download Firefox, then.
[19:24:27] <Link Mauve> Does it work without flash?
[19:25:22] <MattJ> No idea
[19:25:57] <psa> heh, Gary Burd, eh?
[19:26:22] <psa> Gary was one of the original Google Talk developers ;-)
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[19:45:41] <psa> unicorns and magic!
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[19:54:34] <mathieui> I just had an awesome idea
[19:54:46] <mathieui> a request-correction XEP
[19:55:55] <mathieui> to tell people to correct their messages without polluting a conversation
[19:57:27] <Lloyd> :)
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[19:58:09] <psa> I'm not sure that is awesome -- could you explain a bit more?
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[20:02:08] <mathieui> well, when someone makes a mistake in its message, people often correct it for him “fixed*” leading to non-useful messages
[20:02:21] <mathieui> but I meant “awesome” in a funny way :)
[20:05:38] <Lance> mathieui: muc auto correction. make the room correct common spelling errors automatically
[20:06:18] <mathieui> mod_skynet
[20:13:27] <psa> mathieui: s/its message/their message/ :P
[20:13:42] <psa> brb
[20:14:23] <Tobias> psa, so how is posh coming along?
[20:20:47] <psa> Matt and I are working to generalize it a bit so that it is not XMPP-specific
[20:21:59] <Tobias> great...happy to review your changes :)
[20:23:01] <psa> https://github.com/linuxwolf/xmpp-fed/blob/master/draft-miller-xmpp-posh-prooftype.txt is the latest
[20:23:15] <psa> we plan to chat about it in person before the end of the week
[20:25:38] <Tobias> psa, what was the reason to not just download a PEM cert via HTTPS?
[20:25:57] <Tobias> maybe i'm confusing something
[20:26:24] <psa> heh, I asked that of Matt the other day :-)
[20:26:27] <psa> on the phone, brb
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[20:34:09] <Lance> Tobias my guess is this way it integrates with the JOSE stuff more cleanly
[20:35:47] <Tobias> Lance, yeah...would make sense...
[20:36:11] <psa> and there are issues with certificate rollover, but I don't recall the details
[20:37:02] <Tobias> ah..ok...
[20:37:35] <psa> plus yeah the whole ASN.1 madness for browser-based clients :-)
[20:37:46] <Tobias> psa, what turns rfc xml in that nice html, like here http://tools.ietf.org/id/draft-miller-xmpp-dnssec-prooftype-04.html
[20:39:38] <Tobias> so browser can't do ASN.1 or their JS environment?
[20:39:40] <psa> that's probably the new xml2rfc code
[20:39:58] <psa> there are no ASN.1 parsers in browsers or in JS
[20:40:48] <psa> AFAIK
[20:41:09] <psa> I haven't used the new Python xml2rfc tool to output HTML, only txt (for submission purposes)
[20:41:19] <Tobias> psa, aren't TLS supporting browsers kind of required to parse ASN.1 or one of its encodings (DER)?
[20:41:46] <psa> I don't think that applications have access to those APIs
[20:41:55] <Tobias> right.
[20:42:02] <psa> so JS apps are out of luck
[20:42:20] <psa> thus the need for a web crypto API
[20:42:50] <psa> brb
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[20:43:30] <Tobias> yup...POSH is used by DNA...but browsers hardly implement xmpp s2s...or is that what you meant to make it less XMPP-specific
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[20:46:23] <psa> well, POSH is for client-server too
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[20:47:36] <Tobias> ah...right...you don't want flosoft to have your private key to serve c2s for you...but then that would need integration in our XMPP RFCs right?
[20:47:53] <psa> that's a really big screen they have at the xmppuk meetup
[20:48:49] <psa> Tobias: yes indeed, although I think we're just adding prooftypes
[20:48:59] <psa> so RFC 6120 defines the PKI prooftype
[20:49:11] <psa> and some DANE WG spec will define the DNSSEC prooftype
[20:49:27] <psa> and maybe a POSH WG will define the POSH prooftype
[20:49:32] <psa> if we can get organized :-)
[20:49:35] <Tobias> other word for prooftype? :) can't find it in 6120
[20:50:03] <psa> :P
[20:50:25] <psa> we could, of course, update 6120
[20:50:30] <psa> which we might do anyway, to fold in the updated i1n stuff
[20:50:49] <psa> although at that point people might not care about XMPP anymore, y'know :P
[20:51:15] <Tobias> yeah...we really need to get rid of those angle brackets....people will get hurt otherwise
[20:51:23] <psa> heehee
[20:51:26] <psa> ouch!
[20:51:49] <Tobias> XMPP evolves way too fast...i mean how long did it take for HTTP to get from 1.0 to 1.1 and now 2.0
[20:52:04] <psa> however, with stanza.io you might never see an angle bracket, eh?
[20:52:11] <Lance> yep
[20:52:13] <Tobias> but it probably just matches its real-time nature
[20:52:27] <Lance> unless you like looking at raw websocket traffic for some reason
[20:52:43] <Tobias> Lance, wireshark running all the time ;)
[20:53:09] <psa> Tobias: the problem is that the specs evolve faster than the implementations, or that implementations advance at different rates (and the most popular clients at least are pretty slow at updating or focus only on the minimal feature set that applies across all systems)
[20:53:37] <psa> fewer specs, more code -- I try not to work on many specs these days :P
[20:53:39] <Lance> client.sendMessage({to: 'jdev@conference.jabber.org/psa', body: 'this is so much better, right?', requestReceipt: true, chatState: 'active'})
[20:53:46] <psa> not that the code I'm writing is of much use
[20:53:53] <Tobias> right...XMPP implemntation land is quite diverse
[20:54:20] <psa> yes
[20:54:22] <Tobias> psa, true...that's why we finally need to give this DNA stuff a real-life try
[20:54:28] <psa> yep
[20:55:16] <Tobias> maybe we should wip up some page on the wiki what's required for that, infrastructure wise, so all that's left is the code that implements it...
[20:56:25] <Tobias> so we can test DNA + its simplest prooftype
[20:57:09] <psa> good idea
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