Logs for jdev

Show join/part/nick changes:

[00:07:43] * Tobias_ joined the chat.
[00:13:15] * Tobias left the chat.
[00:26:01] * bear left the chat.
[00:28:33] * Lance left the chat.
[01:15:02] * darkrain_ left the chat.
[01:17:14] * Neustradamus left the chat.
[01:31:16] * jcea left the chat.
[02:00:35] * bear joined the chat.
[03:06:41] * Lance joined the chat.
[04:22:01] * deryni left the chat.
[04:40:49] * bear left the chat.
[05:06:30] * jabberjocke left the chat.
[06:05:59] * Asterix joined the chat.
[06:07:40] * Tobias_ left the chat.
[06:07:42] * Tobias joined the chat.
[06:07:53] * Flow joined the chat.
[06:17:32] * jabberjocke joined the chat.
[06:30:03] * Asterix left the chat.
[06:37:09] * Alex joined the chat.
[06:38:31] * vorner joined the chat.
[06:44:15] * ermine joined the chat.
[06:44:35] * Neustradamus joined the chat.
[06:59:48] * Neustradamus left the chat.
[06:59:56] * Tobias left the chat.
[07:01:52] * Schnouki joined the chat.
[07:20:47] * 0xAFFE joined the chat.
[07:31:16] * jabberjocke left the chat.
[07:44:57] * Tobias joined the chat.
[07:48:20] * Guus joined the chat.
[07:49:28] * bear joined the chat.
[07:49:37] * Schnouki left the chat.
[07:49:47] * Schnouki joined the chat.
[08:12:40] * luca tagliaferri joined the chat.
[08:30:01] * Steven Lloyd Watkin joined the chat.
[09:11:22] * Tobias left the chat.
[09:12:06] * Tobias joined the chat.
[09:14:10] * vorner left the chat.
[09:18:07] * vorner joined the chat.
[09:53:09] * bear left the chat.
[10:01:43] * Lance left the chat.
[10:02:10] * Guus left the chat.
[10:11:06] * Guus joined the chat.
[10:13:53] * Tobias left the chat.
[10:16:47] * Tobias joined the chat.
[10:24:13] * Tobias left the chat.
[10:24:38] * Link Mauve left the chat.
[10:24:38] * Link Mauve joined the chat.
[10:33:04] * Tobias joined the chat.
[10:40:05] * Tobias left the chat.
[10:40:08] * Tobias joined the chat.
[11:23:29] * Flow left the chat.
[11:40:48] * MattJ joined the chat.
[12:00:29] * luca tagliaferri left the chat.
[12:26:58] * Tobias left the chat.
[12:32:59] * test234 joined the chat.
[12:33:37] * test234 left the chat.
[12:42:50] * Tobias joined the chat.
[12:56:03] * Alex left the chat.
[13:03:12] * naw joined the chat.
[13:23:36] * naw left the chat.
[13:36:36] * jabberjocke joined the chat.
[13:37:04] * jcea joined the chat.
[13:39:15] * Tobias_ joined the chat.
[13:39:39] * Tobias left the chat.
[13:50:22] * luca tagliaferri joined the chat.
[14:07:08] * Tobias_ left the chat.
[14:07:12] * Tobias joined the chat.
[14:16:00] * Guus left the chat.
[14:21:33] * Flow joined the chat.
[14:45:10] * darkrain_ joined the chat.
[15:00:39] * Tobias left the chat.
[15:05:24] * deryni joined the chat.
[15:16:35] * vorner left the chat.
[15:32:02] * Schnouki left the chat.
[15:49:57] * Tobias joined the chat.
[15:51:45] * Schnouki joined the chat.
[15:56:41] * Tobias_ joined the chat.
[15:56:44] * vorner joined the chat.
[15:59:24] * Flow left the chat.
[16:00:53] * Tobias left the chat.
[16:10:28] * Schnouki left the chat.
[16:13:59] * luca tagliaferri left the chat.
[16:18:21] * Lance joined the chat.
[16:47:53] * luca tagliaferri joined the chat.
[16:47:58] * Steven Lloyd Watkin left the chat.
[16:47:58] * Steven Lloyd Watkin joined the chat.
[16:53:20] * Flow joined the chat.
[17:01:53] * Tobias_ left the chat.
[17:20:15] * luca tagliaferri left the chat.
[17:27:28] * Neustradamus joined the chat.
[17:37:25] * Schnouki joined the chat.
[17:52:39] * jmedev joined the chat.
[17:55:32] * jabberjocke left the chat.
[17:56:06] * Asterix joined the chat.
[18:04:23] * 0xAFFE left the chat.
[18:09:45] * binsys joined the chat.
[18:09:50] * binsys left the chat.
[18:28:42] * ermine left the chat.
[18:40:55] * Flow left the chat.
[18:52:02] * Steven Lloyd Watkin left the chat.
[18:58:59] * jmedev left the chat.
[19:02:15] * Flow joined the chat.
[19:09:06] * Schnouki left the chat.
[19:12:06] * Flow left the chat.
[19:15:12] * Alex joined the chat.
[19:15:12] * Alex left the chat.
[19:30:35] * Alex joined the chat.
[19:42:27] * naw joined the chat.
[19:49:06] * Flow joined the chat.
[19:57:24] * Lance_ joined the chat.
[19:58:14] * Lance_ left the chat.
[20:01:23] * boothj5 joined the chat.
[20:07:34] <boothj5> Would this be a good place to discuss XMPP's place in web development, its popularity and its future, or should I really be somewhere else?
[20:09:51] <Lance> boothj5: yep
[20:10:34] * luca tagliaferri joined the chat.
[20:10:57] <boothj5> I've written my own opensource client which a few people use, but more recently have started using XMPP at work (strophe.js)
[20:11:14] <boothj5> Our clients at work are literally amazed as whats now possible
[20:11:34] <boothj5> But there just doesn't seem to be much "buzz" for want of a better word
[20:12:26] <boothj5> Its not something everyone is talking about, but I kinda feel they should be
[20:13:01] <Lance> Very true. There used to be quite some buzz, but that's waned in the last few years
[20:13:02] <boothj5> I guess I was just after peoples opinion on the reasons
[20:13:06] * Flow left the chat.
[20:13:36] <boothj5> I noticed a backbone.js plugin for pubsub which looks impressive and I'm going to try out at work
[20:13:57] <boothj5> Given the buzz around single pages apps etc in js, it might add some momentum
[20:14:27] <boothj5> Do you have any ideas why not many people are talking about it?
[20:14:30] <Lance> Right now things like socket.io have the marketing momentum behind them
[20:14:51] <boothj5> apologies for my ignorance but whats socket.io?
[20:14:52] <Lance> just because its simple and works
[20:15:12] <Lance> http://socket.io/
[20:15:15] <Kanchil> Lance: http://socket.io/: Socket.IO: the cross-browser WebSocket for realtime apps.
[20:15:16] <boothj5> re: its simple, I agree on that one, its amazed me how easy it is to get things up and running
[20:15:43] * Flow joined the chat.
[20:16:07] <Lance> boothj5: So did you just now get started with XMPP in web development?
[20:16:30] <boothj5> yes I spent a good year on my personal project, but thats written in C
[20:16:39] <boothj5> Been doing the web side for about a month
[20:17:10] <Lance> ah, ok. so you've already had xmpp experience before this
[20:17:40] <Lance> the main things I've found regarding lack of buzz, is simply the presumption that xmpp is just for chat
[20:17:42] <boothj5> ah yes, quite a lot!
[20:18:31] <boothj5> indeed, once I showed the possibilities of pubsub, my managers were hooked
[20:18:36] <Lance> and so it gets overlooked by new devs, because they don't know what it really can do
[20:19:00] <boothj5> so socket.io is completely independent of XMPP? Using websockets?
[20:19:06] <Lance> plus the xml part scares some people away. the stigma of the browser dom apis
[20:19:21] <Lance> yeah, and that's what a lot of people choose to use instead
[20:19:26] <boothj5> yes, althought you get to use Jquery which has a lot of buzz
[20:19:58] <boothj5> I've had a brief look, but I assume there's not much in the way of standards with socket.io?
[20:20:06] <Lance> oh no
[20:20:20] <Lance> no real standardization there. just code
[20:20:24] <boothj5> yep
[20:20:44] <boothj5> The reason I (and my colleagues) are attracted to XMPP is its open standards
[20:20:51] <boothj5> Using different devices etc
[20:22:12] <boothj5> One other things I heard mentioned a lot, purely word of mouth, is the performance when scaling XMPP
[20:22:23] <boothj5> but I have no evidence for that
[20:22:41] <Lance> evidence for?
[20:22:48] <Lance> good scaling/bad scaling?
[20:22:52] <boothj5> sorry, not evidence that it doesn't scale
[20:22:56] <boothj5> *no
[20:23:03] <boothj5> exactly
[20:23:45] <Lance> yeah lots of preconceived notions on how it should perform, because its xml and not binary
[20:24:22] <Lance> i've found it performs best as the external api to your systems
[20:24:22] <boothj5> yes, perhaps it just a matter of being intelligent with the infrastructure
[20:24:50] <Lance> not necessarily doing all of your internal data logic, etc over xmpp itself
[20:25:45] <boothj5> oh yes, the approach im currently taking, is to use our application code to do all the hard work/logic, and essentually just use XMPP to get information out quick
[20:26:00] <boothj5> kinda like what your saying i think
[20:27:11] <Lance> any other experiences you've had working with xmpp in the browser?
[20:27:26] <Lance> good/bad/annoyances?
[20:27:26] <boothj5> This is the first in the browser
[20:27:35] <boothj5> So far, only good
[20:27:46] <boothj5> A lot of that it down to strophe.js I think
[20:27:51] <boothj5> *is
[20:28:26] <boothj5> In fact to get simple chat working, took me about 2 days
[20:28:39] <boothj5> It was the UI code that took me forever!
[20:29:09] <boothj5> I'm about to prototype some pubsub functionality so that should be interesting
[20:29:09] <Kev> Lance: socket.io won't do xmpp-im stuff, I take it?
[20:29:41] <Kev> stanza.io, rather
[20:29:44] <Lance> Kev: nope. Although Lloyd has gotten pretty far on his xmpp-ftw project, proxying socket.io to xmpp
[20:29:53] <Kev> Or which was the name of yours?
[20:29:54] <Lance> oh, stanza.io
[20:30:04] * kevin left the chat.
[20:30:23] <Lance> I'm still working on that one. I have js stanza objects like sleek's working now
[20:30:58] <Kev> Once upon a time, Python->JS compilers existed, didn't they?
[20:31:04] <Lance> probably
[20:31:15] <Lance> but it was actually pretty simple to just do it by hand
[20:31:40] <boothj5> stanza.io is XMPP under socket.io? Just looking on github
[20:31:52] <boothj5> if "under" is the right word
[20:32:09] <Lance> for now, yes. browser speaks socket.io, which then gets proxied as an xmpp connection
[20:32:28] <Lance> there is a xmpp-ftw project that does the same thing, but is much more advanced now
[20:32:29] <Kev> Oh, it's proxying to the server, not XMPP in the client?
[20:32:50] <Lance> so I'm going back and making stanza.io do xmpp in the browser itself, over websockets
[20:34:31] <Lance> Kev: it still exposes JSON objects instead of XML to the developer, but it'll do the conversion in the browser
[20:34:44] <Lance> same as how sleek does it
[20:37:15] <Kev> No fallback to BOSH?
[20:38:01] <Lance> maybe later. im more interested with implementing the websocket side for experience for the rfc work
[20:38:27] <Kev> I was expecting that answer.
[20:38:32] <Kev> What's the license?
[20:38:41] <Lance> MIT
[20:38:46] <Lance> js and gpl don't mix
[20:38:57] <Kev> In what way?
[20:39:40] <Lance> my understanding is just that it gets very messy on what gets forced to be gpl'd afterward by users
[20:39:53] <Lance> maybe lgpl would be good
[20:39:59] <Kev> GPL always gets messy on what has to be GPLd.
[20:40:29] <Kev> That's why I like it for things I want to be dual-license, and dislike it for things that are really free.
[20:40:29] * Asterix left the chat.
[20:41:42] <Kev> (I'm not sure that stance would make Stallmanites happy, really)
[20:42:23] <Kev> (Although he's happy with dual licensing, so maybe it would)
[20:42:27] * Beanow left the chat.
[20:44:28] <boothj5> Have to admit Im a bit of a stallmanite... but then I work for a company producing proprietary software, have facebook and google accounts, and an android tablet
[20:44:34] <boothj5> I dont think he would be impressed
[20:50:32] <boothj5> The only other thing I was wondering, is what I can do for the xmpp community
[20:50:43] <boothj5> but I dont think theres a simple answer to that one
[20:51:18] <Lance> build cool stuff
[20:51:32] <boothj5> :)
[20:51:46] <boothj5> Hopefully some people think my client is cool
[20:52:01] <Lance> if you're able to do press releases/blog posts about the tech your product uses, mention xmpp
[20:52:23] <boothj5> Oh XMPP is right up there on the web page title
[20:54:39] <boothj5> Unfortuntely my work stuff isn't for a public facing website
[20:54:53] <boothj5> otherwise I would be promoting it there too
[20:55:39] <boothj5> but my colleagues/managers now think xmpp is "magic", in a good way
[20:55:52] <Lance> nice
[20:59:36] * luca tagliaferri left the chat.
[21:06:39] * deryni left the chat.
[21:14:47] * Flow left the chat.
[21:46:36] * boothj5 left the chat.
[22:01:19] * naw left the chat.
[22:10:12] * Tobias joined the chat.
[22:10:13] * Alex left the chat.
[22:31:53] * mody joined the chat.
[22:34:49] * vorner left the chat.
[22:38:27] * mody left the chat.
[22:53:41] * deryni joined the chat.