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[06:28:00] <nathanadored> so, any idea why it is that sometimes the Jabber chat brings ghost users? Users that show as being in the channel but are long gone, and the real user keeps getting a 409 Conflict on trying to connect?
[06:29:44] <nathanadored> and will that be fixed with the next update to the server software?
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[07:07:57] <Kev> nathanadored: No, I'd need more information.
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[09:03:14] <nathanadored> Kev: well, nomadofnorad there is stuck in 409 Conflict limbo at the moment. is it possible to look at him at the moment to see what's up with that?
[09:04:12] <Kev> Oh, gmail.
[09:04:27] <Kev> I'm aware that gmail has bugs that stop it working properly with MUC.
[09:04:38] <Kev> Can you reproduce this with a non-Google account?
[09:05:24] <nathanadored> Dunno, it just spontaneously happens sometimes without me having any idea why.
[09:11:31] <nathanadored> I think it happens if I lose my internet connection and then get it back, tho.
[09:13:03] <nathanadored> thing is, usually it happens with THIS account, not that one, and on someone else's chatroom, and I usually have to have them kick ghost-me from the channel to get back in.
[09:13:16] <Kev> Ah.
[09:13:22] <Kev> And let me guess, this is a chatroom on another server.
[09:13:26] <Kev> So, this is a pair of issues.
[09:13:27] <nathanadored> yeah
[09:14:08] <nathanadored> this is on a server someone on their own machine.
[09:14:15] <Kev> 1) Their server doesn't support MUC nick-sharing (which all modern ones do!) 2) jabber.org needs to be upgraded to support the routing rules in the new RFC, which helps detect ghosts and lets MUCs get rid of them.
[09:14:16] <nathanadored> +is running
[09:15:05] <Kev> (2) is going to happen, although we've not been as quick with it as we'd like.
[09:23:44] <nathanadored> any idea when (2) will happen?
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[09:26:47] <Kev> Other than "as soon as I can make it happen", no.
[09:27:53] <nathanadored> :)
[09:29:28] <nathanadored> well, I need to head to bed,,,
[09:29:32] <nathanadored> /me waves
[09:30:39] <Kev> GN.
[09:31:16] <nathanadored> ty
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[15:38:23] <vilius> I always get a "default" date "(01/01/70 03:00:00)" for topic on entrance into rooms on conference.jabber.org. Doesn't do any harm, curious though: I don't expect my client (pidgin) to treat topic timestamp differently from timestamps for other messages, which are correct, but getting a timestamp from server doesn't sound logical either
[15:38:53] <Kev> The version of the software running on jabber.org doesn't remember the time subjects are set.
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[17:50:55] <m4x> is there a possibility to add groupchats permanently to the contact list?
[17:53:31] <Kev> Yes, you don't add them directly to the contact list, you add them to a 'bookmark'. Most clients support this.
[17:53:47] <Kev> (And you can tell your bookmarks to autojoin when you log in)
[17:54:23] <m4x> but when i add this bookmark, it is not stored on the server is it?
[17:54:51] <Kev> It is.
[17:56:16] <m4x> but when i added a chat room in pidgin, i wasn't able to see it using different clients on android
[17:58:42] <Kev> That suggests that either Pidgin or (more likely) the Android clients don't support bookmarking.
[17:59:20] <m4x> can you recommand an android app that possibly supports bookmarking?
[17:59:29] <Kev> I know nothing about Android, sorry.
[17:59:56] <Alex> my favorite android client is xabber
[18:00:19] <Alex> it supports bookmarks
[18:00:36] <m4x> really?
[18:00:44] <Alex> only think I dislike in this client is that it does not show the participant list in mucs
[18:00:49] <m4x> ok then i did something wrong because i already tried xabber
[18:01:17] <m4x> jes i noticed this too
[18:01:56] <Alex> On the Desktop I use Psi and Swift. I see the chatroom bookmarks in all clients
[18:02:34] <m4x> ok thanks a lot, i will try this
[18:02:41] <Kev> I wonder if it's possible that Pidgin doesn't do bookmarks, then?
[18:02:50] <Kev> Someone should know in here, I think.
[18:03:59] <m4x> when i re-login to pidgin it remembered the chatrooms but i cannot see them on xabber
[18:04:18] <Alex> m4x: lemme check again, maybe I'm wrong
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[18:06:53] <Alex> ok. I was wrong. It adds the conferences you joined once to the contact list
[18:07:21] <Alex> so all the conferences are on the list because I joined them once manual with the tablet
[18:07:35] <m4x> ok
[18:08:14] <Alex> most other clients did not work very well for me
[18:08:24] <Alex> So if you have another good tip let me know
[18:08:58] <m4x> unfortunately not
[18:09:29] <m4x> i liked beem a lot, but the muc-support is really bad
[18:15:01] <m4x> so all in all the groupchat funktions in jabber are not how i expected.. i was hoping to convince my friends to use jabber instead of whatsapp but it is not that developed it seems
[18:15:42] <Kev> Isn't whatsapp just a hacked up XMPP?
[18:15:57] <Alex> Kev: yes it is
[18:17:13] <Alex> but they also use Push, because on iOS for example you cannot keep a socket open when your app is in background
[18:17:24] <Kev> Yes, you can.
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[18:17:47] <Kev> There are restrictions on it, but you can do it.
[18:18:02] <Alex> only when you mark your app as a voice app
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[18:18:25] <Alex> if you do this and you are not a voice app then certification will probably fail
[18:18:32] <Kev> Yes, voice or GPS apps can run sockets indefinitely. Anyone can run a socket for 10 minutes (which is irritating).
[18:18:42] <Alex> Windows Phone has the same restrictions
[18:18:50] <ThurahT> Pidgin treats Bookmarks as Contacts you can just join or auto join or what ever
[18:23:32] <m4x> do you think it is possible to implement an app than can be used like whatsapp? i thought about that many times but i am not that experienced in android programming. or perhaps a better question should be: is this very difficult and do you see an advantage of such an app?
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[18:31:31] <glenn_bulb> hi
[18:32:49] <Kev> m4x: Yes, whatsapp is just another XMPP (jabber) application, as far as I know. Although they've changed things a little bit, like adding security vulnerabilities to the auth mechanism :D
[18:33:58] <ThurahT> haha : )
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[18:35:19] <Alex> your phone number is your username and your emei with some crypto added the password
[18:35:30] <Kev> (That /was/ whatsapp, wasn't it? Using the device id as the password?)
[18:35:39] <Kev> Heh, yes, that.
[18:36:00] <Alex> I use it all day and have no problem with it. It just works
[18:36:30] <Kev> They used to not crypto the password, as I understand it.
[18:36:33] <Alex> of course we don't use it for sensitive data. Its very popular here in germany
[18:36:53] <Kev> So finding people's uname/password was fairly easy.
[18:37:20] <Alex> its still if you get the emei of a pone I guess
[18:37:38] <Alex> they made some updated to make it harder
[18:38:23] <Kev> Thankfully security-by-obscurity is a known-good technique :D
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[18:41:25] <Alex> I have soem whats app chatrooms with friends. We really don't care who is reading teh junk we publish to these rooms ;-)
[18:41:43] <Alex> so the questions is if security really matters for everything
[18:41:59] <xgang> Hi 2 all
[18:42:07] <Kev> Well, the question is whether you care if someone else can send messages to your friends claiming to be you.
[18:42:13] <xgang> M new user here
[18:42:21] <ThurahT> I'd mind and care.. : )
[18:42:49] <vilius> right, I was going to go back to the essential features of TLS :)
[18:43:05] <Kev> vilius: TLS doesn't help here.
[18:43:11] <Alex> Kev: yes I do, but normally nobody can get my Emei without having full accedd to the phone
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[18:43:36] <Kev> Alex: Right, so that's the author of any application you've got installed on your phone :)
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[18:44:20] <vilius> Kev: not sure how it works with chats, but I meant authenticity, which TLS does ensure. Maybe client side certs would be needed in this scenario
[18:45:12] <Kev> vilius: Using client side certs would work, but so would just using passwords normally.
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[18:47:26] <vilius> Kev: sure, that's a much bigger problem, where TLS won't help at all. I only meant to stress the importance of key features of TLS in electronic communication, not that it would be the only way to do it.
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[19:17:41] <ThurahT> jeesus.. windows 8 is really a PITA.. All I want her to do is to copy a folder to AppData folder.. Good luck..
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[19:21:00] <m4x> there is one thing about whatsapp that bothers me more than the lack of authenticity: the fact that there is no possibility for end-to-end encryption and that all communication runs over one central server offers the possibility to analyse what people write or am i wrong?
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[19:23:06] <Alex> for XMPP you need always a centeral server, you can of course run the server on your own
[19:30:30] <m4x> of course you need a server
[19:30:46] <m4x> but on whatsapp you cannot choose a server can you?
[19:31:12] <Alex> no you can't
[19:31:25] <m4x> and you can not use OTR
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