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[18:58:25] <sprite> hey
[18:58:35] <stpeter> hi
[18:59:11] <sprite> Sorry was just testing. Working my way through professional xmmp by jack moffit. Seems like everything is working so far :)
[18:59:33] <stpeter> excellent :)
[18:59:43] <stpeter> let us know if we can help at all
[18:59:49] <sprite> Thanks, will do.
[19:00:06] <stpeter> this room is pretty friendly -- when it's awake ;-)
[19:00:47] <sprite> Awesome. I will probably need some help in the future. Plan on doing some XMPP related stuff for mobile, just trying to learn the basics of the protocol first :)
[19:00:54] <stpeter> yep
[19:00:56] <stpeter> good plan
[19:01:57] <Zash> :D
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[21:17:21] <deryni> Is there a way for a client to reject a stanza='' attribute value they don't like in IBB that the other client is supposed to understand? I don't see anything obvious in [xep 47] for it.
[21:17:22] <Kanchil> deryni: XEP-0047: In-Band Bytestreams is Standards Track (Draft, 2009-03-17) See: http://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0047.html
[21:18:53] <deryni> Also in [xep 261] wouldn't the MUST talking about block-size in the layered IBB <open> be a problem? Or is the idea there that the responder is supposed to respond with resource-constraint and have the initiator try again?
[21:18:53] <Kanchil> deryni: XEP-0261: Jingle In-Band Bytestreams Transport Method is Standards Track (Experimental, 2010-04-14) See: http://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0261.html
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[21:20:04] <stpeter> heh
[21:20:07] <stpeter> hi deryni
[21:20:20] <deryni> Hi.
[21:20:35] <stpeter> /me switches context
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[21:21:09] <deryni> These aren't exactly pressing questions so feel free to ignore me for now. =)
[21:21:43] <stpeter> I will confess that I have a number of things to fix in that suite of specs
[21:22:43] <stpeter> regarding 261, the point is that the values could be different at the different layers?
[21:23:02] <stpeter> i.e., "MUST also send the <open/> element, with the same 'block-size' and 'sid' values as for the Jingle <transport/> element"
[21:24:31] <deryni> Does any data actually go across anything other than the IBB layer? The text for example three talks about the responder lowering the value (I don't know if/how increasing it would work). But then the IBB layer initiation uses the bigger value thus forcing a renegotiation again, no?
[21:24:54] <deryni> This is the first I'm looking at either of these XEPs for the record, and I know basically nothing about jingle to boot. =)
[21:25:13] <stpeter> heh
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[21:26:24] <deryni> We had a bug filed that IBB from miranda to pidgin was failing. miranda uses stanza=message and we don't support that but we also don't fail the open. Hence the first question. The jingle one was just me reading the related XEP.
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[21:31:41] <stpeter> sorry, interruption in progress :)
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[21:52:01] <stpeter> yes, we seem to have a layering problem here
[21:52:40] <stpeter> in IBB there is no way to reject or renegotiate the stanza value -- it's more of an FYI, I suppose
[21:53:43] <stpeter> in Jingle-IBB, the intent is that you negotiate the parameters via Jingle and the <open/> is included only so that you can pass it directly to an IBB "engine" if needed
[21:53:49] <stpeter> at least, so it seems :)
[21:55:21] <deryni> Right, but the IBB engine is presumably going to balk at the value the same way the jingle engine did. If it doesn't then the jingle balking is pointless (right?) and if it does then the MUST just forces the extra round-trip for no reason.
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[21:56:23] <deryni> I'm fine with the stanza value not being cleanly rejectable, it doesn't matter much I hope. I hope clients that use message at this point let you pick or fall back automatically.
[21:58:20] <stpeter> well we either need to say that clients MUST support both <message/> and <iq/> or provide a way to clearly specify why the negotiation is being rejected
[21:59:16] <deryni> Oh sure, this is something that should be fixed. It just isn't among the more pressing issues you have on your todo list. =)
[22:00:07] <stpeter> yeah I need to finish the darn RFC revisions this week and next, plus draft-saintandre-tls-server-id-check
[22:00:14] <MattJ> Talking of fixing specs...
[22:00:19] <stpeter> but file transfer fixes are near the top of my list for January
[22:00:23] <stpeter> uh-oh...
[22:00:29] <MattJ> Heh
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[22:01:03] <MattJ> waqas posted a mail to standards a while back about some inconsistencies in the IBR XEP, but today someone reported an interop issue down to it for the first time :)
[22:01:23] <stpeter> excellent
[22:01:42] <deryni> That looks like a good cue for me to head home. =) Back later. Bye.
[22:01:45] <MattJ> in that Psi users can't change their password on Prosody 0.8, due to different interpretations of what the "to" address should be
[22:02:00] <MattJ> deryni, I need your opinion as a client dev too ;)
[22:02:08] <stpeter> hmm
[22:02:24] <stpeter> the 'to' on the stanza used to change the password?
[22:02:44] <MattJ> Exactly
[22:02:46] <MattJ> http://mail.jabber.org/pipermail/standards/2010-June/023564.html
[22:02:50] <MattJ> waqas sums it up well
[22:03:23] <stpeter> heh, that message is still in my inbox :)
[22:03:40] <MattJ> That's bad, it's from June :D
[22:03:48] <stpeter> I know :(
[22:04:22] <MattJ> I'm going to start 2011 with 0 messages in my inbox
[22:04:22] <MattJ> perhaps
[22:04:46] <Kev> I could do that, but only by deleting ones I haven't dealt with.
[22:05:11] <stpeter> only in my dreams
[22:05:11] <stpeter> heh
[22:05:11] <stpeter> waqas is right
[22:05:12] <Kev> 112 threads atm, for my home account.
[22:05:37] <MattJ> Deal with them!
[22:05:49] <stpeter> XEP-0077 is such a mess
[22:05:49] <stpeter> sigh
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[22:06:15] <stpeter> sometimes I feel like we just need to start over...
[22:06:15] <stpeter> hmm, laggy
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[22:06:36] <Kev> And the best thing with that is that it isn't easier said than done.
[22:06:36] <Kev> Let's see.
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[22:06:48] <Kev> Server's not under load.
[22:06:53] <Zash> And XEP 4 is quite unclear on how you should treat empty/missing field, value elements in forms
[22:06:56] <Zash> !ping
[22:06:57] <Kanchil> Zash: pong
[22:09:00] <stpeter> well, one disastrous spec at a time
[22:09:05] <MattJ> :)
[22:09:14] <stpeter> RFC 3920 was horrible, too
[22:09:22] <stpeter> it's only taken me 4 years to clean it up :P
[22:09:44] <stpeter> I'm horrified at how much was unspecified or underspecified in 3920
[22:09:49] <MattJ> Indeed, I was just about to say - a lot of things we take for granted today as best practice in XMPP protocol design weren't established back then
[22:09:51] <Zash> Then, let's start over from scratch and do XMPP 2.0 \o/
[22:10:02] <stpeter> Zash: I'm sorely tempted, believe me
[22:10:03] <MattJ> Zash, stpeter's worst nightmare :)
[22:10:07] <Zash> !
[22:10:19] <stpeter> except I think it would be Jabber 2.0 -- who needs all this XML garbage? :)
[22:10:25] <Kev> retroshare?
[22:10:38] <MattJ> stpeter, ooh, you're brave :)
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[22:10:55] <stpeter> if this discussion continues I'll need to be sipping on something stronger than green tea :)
[22:11:03] <Zash> :D
[22:11:32] <stpeter> /me goes back to checking draft-ietf-xmpp-address for consistency
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[22:13:54] <Kev> !ping
[22:13:54] <Kanchil> Kev: pong
[22:13:58] <Kev> Sped up now.
[22:13:58] <MattJ> Congratulations on the id-check LC - I need to review that
[22:14:03] <MattJ> Kev, how did you manage it?
[22:14:11] <Kev> Couldn't see anything particular on the server.
[22:14:51] <stpeter> yeah, lots of crazy feedback about id-check -- it might even be worse than 3920bis, but it mercifully shorter :)
[22:14:57] <Kev> I'm wondering if it was network - M-Link wasn't under load, the machine wasn't under load, the machine wasn't swapping...
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[22:17:46] <deryni> Everything in waqas's email sounds sane to me. My only comment is about whether the clarification he asks for in the last sentence is necessary given the bis drafts? Since no to attribute and to='<users bare jid>' mean the same thing for this purpose.
[22:17:58] <stpeter> right
[22:18:05] <stpeter> possibly that's no longer needed, yeah
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[22:43:02] <MattJ> Does anyone (plan to?) implement [xep 13]?
[22:43:03] <Kanchil> MattJ: XEP-0013: Flexible Offline Message Retrieval is Standards Track (Draft, 2005-07-14) See: http://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0013.html
[22:44:06] <stpeter> there must be a better way :)
[22:44:11] <MattJ> :)
[22:44:27] <MattJ> it's no IMAP (before dwd reappears)
[22:44:29] <MattJ> *not
[22:44:42] <Kev> MattJ: You could use message archiving bis, though.
[22:44:52] <stpeter> brb
[22:45:00] <MattJ> Still need a way to indicate "Don't send me the offline message flood"
[22:45:17] <MattJ> but XEP-0013 does that via whether you sent a disco request, ick
[22:45:26] <MattJ> priority -2? :)
[22:45:31] <MattJ> Hmm, no, of course not
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[22:45:40] <MattJ> bis effects wouldn't be nice :)
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[22:45:55] <Zash> openfire supposedly does
[22:45:58] <Zash> ... xep 13
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[22:47:23] <Zash> http://www.igniterealtime.org/builds/openfire/docs/latest/documentation/protocol-support.html
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