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[03:34:43] <darkrain> !ding
[03:35:07] <MattJ> dong
[03:35:34] <darkrain> Hmm, so the room is up. Where's the bot?
[03:35:47] <MattJ> Which one? :)
[03:35:55] <MattJ> xepbot hasn't been here for weeks/months
[03:36:05] <darkrain> Like me
[03:36:07] <MattJ> Kanchil is Kev's domain
[03:36:43] <darkrain> Kanchil is riddim, right?
[03:36:58] <MattJ> Yes
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[12:41:16] <Lord BlackFox> hi
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[12:46:26] <ivucica> XEP-0045 doesn't make any significant differentiation between received non-MUC presences, and the MUC presences. How is one supposed to figure out that a presence is not just a directed presence, and that it's in fact a room-originating presence, in case that client has not explicitly requested joining the room (and thus being aware that a JID is a room's bare JID)?
[12:47:33] <louiz’> How could a client not be aware it is in a room?
[12:47:46] <ivucica> As I said, it has not explicitly requested to join the room
[12:48:09] <ivucica> Or, the client author could be too lazy to remember that a JID is a room JID :)
[12:48:23] <louiz’> In this case, it is just not in the room, is it?
[12:48:29] <Kev_> If your client didn't request the room join, it's not in a room.
[12:48:37] <ivucica> I may want to enforce a client joining the room
[12:48:38] <Kev_> If your client requested the room join and then forgot, it's a bug.
[12:48:50] <ivucica> Or is that use case not covered?
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[12:48:56] <louiz’> Well, I already asked this question, and the answer was “If it's comming from a room you're in, it's coming from the room, else it's a directed presence”
[12:49:19] <ivucica> And there is no way to force a client to join a room?
[12:49:26] <louiz’> no
[12:49:34] <ivucica> Neat.
[12:49:36] <louiz’> There are invitations, but the client knows about it
[12:50:00] <Kev_> ivucica: You can, in a controlled environment, do something very similar.
[12:50:19] <ivucica> I was trying to avoid shared rosters, as per a very good suggestion that my use case may be better covered by MUC.
[12:50:24] <Kev_> e.g. the server can inject an autojoin bookmark into the user's store, but this isn't "force" so much as "encourage"
[12:50:47] <ivucica> However, I'd like to enforce all clients, not just my custom client, to automatically join the "room".
[12:51:07] <ivucica> I'll consider this further -- thanks!
[12:51:43] <ivucica> It might be a nice thing to consider updating XEP-0045 to support enforced joins; I'll see how I can send XEP-related comments.
[12:52:03] <Kev_> Well, that would be adding a new XEP rather than updating 45, if I had anything to do with it, but this isn't an unreasonable use case.
[12:53:22] <ivucica> Kev_: It could be a new XEP :) On the other hand, all that needs to be done is telling the client that a bare JID is a room JID, hence it might fit well in XEP-0045
[12:54:00] <Kev_> That makes it a very short and pleasant XEP :)
[12:54:05] <ivucica> For example, a room might send a presence to the client, upon which the client could send a disco info request.
[12:54:06] <Kev_> I like short XEPs ;)
[12:54:23] <ivucica> Hm! Perhaps I could write something.
[12:54:44] <ivucica> Interesting, interesting, the way this discussion is proceeding :) I like it.
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[12:55:23] <Kev_> It's not clear, mind, that this isn't already covered by invitations.
[12:56:08] <Kev_> And that all that's needed is some client logic that says "If you get an invite from your own bare JID, you should join it."
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