- Thursday, 28 May 2009

jdev@conference.jabber.org

Thursday, 28 May 2009< ^ >

dwd has set the subject to: Jabber/XMPP Development | Logs: http://logs.jabber.org/jdev@conference.jabber.org/

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[01:26:42] <HanzZ> hi, what shoud transport do to receive user moods? It seems it's not enough to show feature in caps...
[01:28:56] <HanzZ> oh :) I think I got it http://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0060.html#subscriber-subscribe
[01:33:39] <Fritzy> hm... you shouldn't have to manually subscribe.
[01:33:51] <Fritzy> caps of the particular namespaces you want should be enough
[01:34:13] <Fritzy> off to bed though, sorry
[01:34:19] <HanzZ> ok, let me check it :)
[01:34:24] <HanzZ> good night :)
[01:34:28] <Fritzy> good luck. :)
[01:35:05] <HanzZ> got it :) I have activity there, not mood :)
[01:35:10] <HanzZ> :(
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[08:04:17] <Florob> HanzZ, hi. May I ask what gloox version you are compiling your work against?
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[08:06:27] <HanzZ> Florob: It would be better if you ask tomorrow, I will write INSTALL there
[08:06:34] <HanzZ> :)
[08:06:38] <Florob> HanzZ, okay
[08:07:02] <HanzZ> I have my patched version, but lot of patches are in the svn gloox
[08:07:31] <HanzZ> I'm thinking about switching to beta version of gloox
[08:07:38] <Florob> HanzZ, actually you really confused the hell out of me. SVN and devel doesn't have some headers you use any longer and stable has different parameters for some functions you overload ;)
[08:08:49] <HanzZ> yes, gloox is not created to be a library for components :)
[08:09:30] <MattJ> eh? I've used it as such
[08:09:34] <MattJ> It supports XEP-0114
[08:10:01] <HanzZ> for example FT code presumes that you are sending files from JID which the component uses (icq.jabber.cz for example), but you can't send file from uin@icq.jabber.cz
[08:10:32] <HanzZ> there are the same "bugs/features" for adhoc commands for example
[08:10:40] <MattJ> Right :)
[08:11:06] <HanzZ> I wanted to speak with Js yesterday, but he wasn't online... :)
[08:11:50] <HanzZ> Just now i don't know if I will use old patched version of gloox, or If I try to rewrite the patches for gloox-devel
[08:12:21] <HanzZ> I have to speak about it with JS
[08:12:38] <MattJ> He's hardly ever online at the moment
[08:13:20] <HanzZ> well :) He is not online at the moment :) I wrote him yesterday, but he didn't answer
[08:14:30] <HanzZ> and today I had to go to my school for paper with my marks from leaving exam (don't know how to translate it :) )
[08:14:46] <HanzZ> so I didn't have time :)
[08:15:18] <Kev> 'results'
[08:15:24] <Kev> or 'exam results'
[08:15:26] <HanzZ> thanks :)
[08:15:30] <Kev> np.
[08:16:02] <HanzZ> I'm not good at english
[08:17:38] HanzZ is going to eat something
[08:18:10] <Kev> I wouldn't have said that.
[08:18:14] <Kev> Enjoy :)
[08:19:01] <HanzZ> Kev: btw, I think you translated my enrollment for summer of code :) so thanks :)
[08:19:19] <HanzZ> I asked Spike and I think he asked you :)
[08:19:21] <Kev> Did I? Ok.
[08:19:22] <Kev> Ah, right.
[08:19:24] <Kev> YW.
[08:19:31] <HanzZ> :)
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[11:37:22] <bear> """The Google Wave Federation Protocol is an open extension to XMPP core [RFC3920] protocol to allow near real-time communication between two wave servers."""
[11:37:36] <bear> http://www.waveprotocol.org/
[11:38:20] <stpeter> hmm
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[11:38:59] <bear> trying to read the spec to see if it's muc or pubsub based
[11:39:02] <bear> or ???
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[11:48:04] <MattJ> http://www.waveprotocol.org/draft-protocol-spec
[11:48:11] <MattJ> Section 2.4 looks so familiar :)
[11:48:38] <stpeter> xmlns='urn:xmpp:wave:requests' is a bit uncool
[11:48:54] <johnny> don't you have an IN with the google guys.. :(
[11:48:56] <bjc> everything google does is cool
[11:49:01] <bjc> didn't you know?
[11:49:09] <bjc> they're not being evil!
[11:49:09] <bear> you think they would ask for some xmpp guru peer review
[11:49:26] <stpeter> heh
[11:51:02] <MattJ> I don't think we can complain too much, they didn't have to go with XMPP at all :)
[11:51:10] <stpeter> well sure
[11:51:17] <MattJ> Only 7 people here, /me rejoins
[11:51:19] <stpeter> anyway I'm initiating contact
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[11:51:35] <MattJ> Beter
[11:51:37] <MattJ> *tter
[11:52:15] <bjc> i'm not sure what other choice google had
[11:52:26] <bjc> it was either xmpp or buy out aol, imho
[11:52:50] <Fritzy> Well, Google is abusing the namespace registrar to just assume.
[11:53:06] <bjc> they abuse whomever they want whenever they want
[11:53:08] <bjc> but it's ok
[11:53:15] <bjc> they're not evil. they tell you all the time
[11:53:19] <Fritzy> :)
[11:53:59] <stpeter> I'm IMing with the document editor :)
[11:54:21] <MattJ> :)
[11:54:23] <bear> stpeter: ah - I was just about ready to send an email to kevinmarks - i'll wait now
[11:54:45] <MattJ> bjc, they could have *easily* made their own protocol up, or not federated at all (most companies their size wouldn't)
[11:55:23] <ermine> wtf wave servers?
[11:55:27] <FloT> I wonder what they plan in the long run.
[11:55:33] <bjc> it would have been stupid to invent their own protocol, and when you're competing against aol or msn it's also stupid to not federate
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[11:55:47] <bear> flot - taht's easy - to make it that all real time comm goes thru their xmpp servers
[11:55:48] <Tobias> MattJ: but google doesn't want to be like most companies
[11:55:51] <bjc> as big as google is, they can't dominate the im market w/o federation
[11:56:07] <bear> because who else will have "authorized" wave servers I wonder
[11:56:08] <MattJ> Tobias, right, which I appreciate :)
[11:56:35] <MattJ> even if they move with the grace of a giant bulldozer
[11:56:46] <MattJ> and disregard namespacing rules :)
[11:56:55] <bjc> and domain ownership
[11:57:00] <bjc> <-- still really bitter
[11:57:02] <MattJ> and domain ownership :)
[11:58:31] <Tobias> i really wonder why they don't operate one of the root DNS yet :D
[11:58:59] <MattJ> stpeter, note they use RelaxNG for the schema :)
[11:59:06] <stpeter> I've often wondered why they don't run their own CA
[11:59:13] <stpeter> MattJ: yeah I need to make that change
[11:59:31] HanzZ is still waiting for Js
[11:59:47] <Tobias> stpeter: maybe because they think nobody trusts them ;)
[12:00:05] <FloT> A google CA would make my day.
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[12:00:16] <Tobias> with is kinda a K.O. criteria for a CA :)
[12:00:35] <HanzZ> anyway, to receive user moods, it should be enough to add ...../mood+notify feature to caps?
[12:00:38] <MattJ> Google DNS, Google CA...
[12:00:39] <ermine> it seems it is not important what 'wave' means
[12:00:43] <MattJ> HanzZ, yes
[12:00:58] <MattJ> HanzZ, and /mood, possibly
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[12:01:10] <HanzZ> hm, I will try to add /mood too
[12:01:13] <HanzZ> I have only mood+notify
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[12:01:29] <Tobias> ermine: yeah...that annoys me most...just a fancy name and not describing in anywhere...just words based on wava
[12:01:30] <Tobias> *wave
[12:01:44] <ephraim> a Google Earth is already there
[12:01:46] <ephraim> :)
[12:03:53] <stpeter> reload, he changed it to xmlns='urn:google:wave:requests'
[12:04:07] <bear> :)
[12:04:34] <ermine> stpeter: do you know wtf wave?
[12:04:40] <MattJ> and urn:google is registered? :)
[12:04:51] <stpeter> MattJ: not yet
[12:05:09] <stpeter> MattJ: better to use an unregistered URN branch than to stomp on an existing, registered branch
[12:05:15] <MattJ> Agreed :)
[12:06:24] <ermine> jealous men
[12:06:44] <ermine> *jelous
[12:07:26] <ermine> ah, first variant is right
[12:13:14] <Tobias> Is that wave stuff already patented?
[12:14:22] <HanzZ> just one question, what's this "wave" thing?
[12:15:08] <Tobias> yeah bear, you seem to get what they mean :)
[12:15:08] <ermine> only google knows
[12:15:21] <HanzZ> :D
[12:17:42] <ermine> even wikipedia does not know
[12:18:03] <bjc> it's multi-party real-time document editing
[12:18:20] <bjc> if you're familiar with SubEthaEdit, it's like that on steroids
[12:18:45] ermine remembers old MUTE
[12:18:57] <bear> well, we need to see how they store the content of a domain/wave/wavelet
[12:19:03] <bear> if it's like pubsub or muc or something new
[12:19:27] <bjc> i'm still going through the spec, but i doubt storage is defined
[12:19:33] <bear> because it was mentioned that you can embed a wavelet in another wavelet - so is that a copy or a reference
[12:19:41] <bjc> reference
[12:19:41] <bear> it's not defined
[12:19:52] <bear> if by reference then it's more like pubsub
[12:20:07] <bjc> yeah, i bet it's using pubsub under the hood
[12:20:07] <bear> so they must have implemented a custom component to their xmpp servers
[12:20:34] <bjc> i dunno. so far i don't see anything that won't fit into existing xeps
[12:20:36] <Tobias> bjc: what do you mean on steroids? i mean do they extend it further than to text editing?
[12:20:45] <bjc> right, and it's federated
[12:22:22] <ermine> strange name for such feature
[12:22:38] <bjc> it makes sense to me, actually
[12:22:55] <bjc> basically the deltas move across the federation in waves
[12:23:29] <ermine> awful
[12:24:45] <stpeter> ermine: it would be better if they used ASN.1 :P
[12:24:51] <bear> so they are using xmpp to do what NNTP does
[12:24:56] <stpeter> http://radar.oreilly.com/2009/05/google-wave-what-might-email-l.html
[12:25:03] <bjc> no, NNTP doesn't do deltas, really
[12:25:13] <bjc> and NNTP doesn't have a concept of authority
[12:25:26] <bear> dude - remove your literal glasses for a minute
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[12:25:43] <bear> NNTP was a flood-fill distribution protocol
[12:25:59] <bear> wave is adding to xmpp the same concept - at least that's my impression of the moment
[12:26:12] <bjc> ah, i'm not getting that from it
[12:26:30] <bear> it all depends on what you receive if your added as a participant
[12:26:37] <bear> do you get a pubsub like post of new items?
[12:26:40] <bear> or what
[12:26:40] <ralphm> anyway, since this is an early draft, anything could still go
[12:26:51] <ralphm> right?
[12:26:54] <ermine> stpeter: there are no plans for SoC to develop something for replacing of xsd?
[12:27:49] <stpeter> ralphm: yes
[12:28:11] <stpeter> the spec editor told me "the spec is a very very very early draft"
[12:29:06] <stpeter> http://www.webmonkey.com/blog/Google_Waves_Goodbye_to_E-Mail__Welcomes_Real-Time_Communication too
[12:29:06] <MattJ> If only it was on some kind of system where we could subscribe to changes
[12:29:16] <stpeter> I sense a coordinated marketing campaign :)
[12:29:31] <ralphm> I'm not sure if the pubsub protocol would be a proper fit, though
[12:29:57] <bear> ralphm - it maps if they consider waveid to be a collection and waveletid to be nodes
[12:30:02] stpeter is still in a meeting so hasn't read the spec closely
[12:30:05] <ralphm> I mean, sure, they use custom protocol for the same thing
[12:30:17] <stpeter> ermine: I'm planning on Relax NG
[12:30:19] <ralphm> but collections are under-specified as-is (really!)
[12:30:25] <bjc> they are
[12:30:26] <stpeter> ralphm: er yes
[12:30:26] <bear> :)
[12:30:34] <bjc> but they can be made to do this stuff
[12:30:37] <ralphm> so it is no wonder they didn't use that
[12:30:40] <bjc> especially coupled with auth nodes
[12:30:42] <ralphm> bjc: sure
[12:31:03] <ralphm> you can build everything on top of pubsub
[12:31:42] <HanzZ> hm :) pubsub is still in mnesia in ejabberd, isnt' it?
[12:31:46] <ralphm> what I am saying is that the protocol we defined has so many bells and whistles, that if you want to pour it into that, you need to do quite a few things
[12:31:57] <ralphm> nevertheless, I need to read up on it more
[12:32:00] <bjc> well, i mean collections and auth nodes give you the ability to share sections of node trees in a many-to-many fashion, efficiently, coupled with privace from auth
[12:32:12] <bjc> HanzZ: yes, but that's changing for 2.1
[12:32:32] <HanzZ> good to know :)
[12:32:38] <bjc> at least parts of it. i'm told that nodetrees are mnesia, but nodes will be odbc. nfc how they're going to manage that, but that's what i'm told
[12:32:52] <ralphm> also, they seem to use iq's exclusively
[12:33:03] <bjc> yeah, but that's to be expected in any pubsub system
[12:33:13] <ralphm> which makes it a bit easier to check if stuff came through
[12:33:16] <bjc> you've gotta catch up on state before you can handle deltas
[12:33:29] <ralphm> bjc: xep-0060 uses message stanza's for the notifications
[12:33:48] <bjc> that's great until you're offline for too long and you miss intermediate deltas
[12:34:05] <bjc> if you're gonna handle that case you need to fetch the items on the node via iq, then handle the message deltas
[12:34:14] <ralphm> bjc: naturally
[12:34:30] <ralphm> I was just pointing out that this protocol does not use one-off messages
[12:34:45] <bjc> really? i thought that was how the deltas get propagated?
[12:34:53] <bjc> i'm still not done reading this thing yet
[12:35:01] <ralphm> maybe I am missing something
[12:35:34] <bear> ralphm: but but but... *everything* can be implemented on pubsub!
[12:35:57] <ralphm> so, section 6.3.3 has an example of a delta being sent around in an iq
[12:36:20] <ralphm> this differs from XEP-0060 in that it does not use one-off message, but apparently uses/needs the ack
[12:36:39] <bjc> well, if that's client perspective it maps to an "item publish"
[12:36:50] <bjc> and, indeed, it appears to be client side
[12:37:04] <ralphm> bjc: so you wouldn't have notifications, only publishes
[12:37:08] <ralphm> hah
[12:37:13] <ralphm> sure that works
[12:37:35] <ralphm> bear: of course
[12:40:28] <stpeter> ok, meeting finished
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[12:43:08] <johnny> so google is doing chess now too...
[12:43:20] <stpeter> heh
[12:43:25] <stpeter> identica joiners :)
[12:43:41] <Tobias> yeah...they'll soon acquire chesspark :)
[12:43:57] <stpeter> heh
[12:44:01] <ralphm> anyway, my point was that since the acks are required, there is no actual separation of concerns as in the observer-with-service model. 'publishers' need to be aware of the 'notifications'
[12:44:15] <ralphm> so that strikes me as not quite fitting the xmpp pubsub model
[12:44:27] <bjc> yeah, it doesn't
[12:44:36] <bjc> and i didn't see any message events
[12:44:40] <bjc> so it's probably not pubsub
[12:46:05] <ralphm> of course you can make it use the xmpp pubsub protocol. But then you, for example, need to describe how the 'pubsub service' verifies that a notification was delivered or resend
[12:46:18] <bjc> i don't think that's really feasible
[12:46:30] <bjc> the iq set/get/result semantics work better
[12:47:13] <bjc> i'm guessing the protocol requires acks, and given what they're doing that would make sense
[12:47:19] <bjc> messages don't work very well for that
[12:47:31] <ralphm> that was my point entirely
[12:47:37] <ralphm> gotta go drumming now
[12:47:48] <stpeter> ralphm: enjoy!
[12:47:54] stpeter heats up some lunch
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[12:48:02] <bjc> lunch. there's a plan
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[12:50:15] <stpeter> bjc: :)
[12:50:20] <stpeter> bjc: where are you located?
[12:50:28] <stpeter> hi remko!
[12:51:14] <stpeter> ok, the jabber.org/xmpp.org mail server is back online
[12:51:23] <stpeter> now I can catch up with various tasks :)
[12:51:23] <remko> hi stpeter!
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[13:09:19] <Sylvain Hellegouarch> Reading the log on the topic of the Wave protocol
[13:09:31] <Sylvain Hellegouarch> First off, what a poor choice of a name :/
[13:09:52] <Sylvain Hellegouarch> then, my first reaction was "why?"
[13:10:46] <stpeter> Sylvain Hellegouarch: I'm not sure yet :)
[13:10:53] <stpeter> I haven't really had a chance to look at it
[13:11:12] <Sylvain Hellegouarch> I'm being careful with Google
[13:11:18] <Sylvain Hellegouarch> they announce so much stuff all the time
[13:11:24] <Sylvain Hellegouarch> and yet do so little with most of them
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[13:12:10] <stpeter> hi kobit!
[13:12:16] <kobit> hi :-)
[13:12:21] <stpeter> Sylvain Hellegouarch: yes they have a bit of a scattershot approach to things
[13:14:04] <Jean-Marc Liotier> On Identi.ca, stpeter mentioned Jingle to point out that Google's proper participation in a standardization process is not a given. So Wave's theoretical federation must be anticipated with much prudence.
[13:15:01] <Sylvain Hellegouarch> I find quite strange they didn't go through the OpenSocial road for Wave. Seems like a natural partner
[13:15:14] <stpeter> Jean-Marc Liotier: you misunderstood my point about Jingle
[13:15:19] <Jean-Marc Liotier> Ooops.
[13:15:34] <stpeter> Jean-Marc Liotier: that has taken a long time, I grant you, but Google has definitively cooperated
[13:16:00] <Jean-Marc Liotier> Okay, but what about the Google library being the de-facto standard instead of the foundations's specification ?
[13:16:23] <stpeter> we get great input from Justin Uberti on the talk team and earlier contributors
[13:16:34] <stpeter> Jean-Marc Liotier: that will change soon because Google will upgrade to the XSF spec
[13:16:40] <Jean-Marc Liotier> Okay !
[13:16:44] <Jean-Marc Liotier> I'll correct that then !
[13:16:54] <stpeter> Jean-Marc Liotier: no worries
[13:17:04] <stpeter> Jean-Marc Liotier: unfortunately, standardization can take time
[13:17:35] <stpeter> and in the case of Jingle I think we needed to have some independent implementations before we could find and fix the protocol design issues
[13:17:41] <stpeter> which we have now
[13:17:47] <stpeter> but didn't have 2-3 years ago
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[13:18:59] <Jean-Marc Liotier> Indeed, interop events have often done a lot to enable practical interoperability
[13:20:15] <Jean-Marc Liotier> The OOXML struggle with Microsoft developing close to the spec with no regards for interoperability is another example showing that tests between different implementations are necessary to stabilize things
[13:20:35] <stpeter> yes
[13:20:52] <stpeter> that's why we are starting to work on interoperability testing in a big way
[13:21:06] <stpeter> naturally, it's a bit easier for us because we have a working network
[13:21:17] <stpeter> if something is broken, we discover it rather quickly
[13:21:23] <stpeter> it's different with documents
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[13:26:48] <Jean-Marc Liotier> At least the specifications are updated after a while to eventually match the living world of implementations... In the corporate world, given enough time the specifications often bear no relation to reality whatsoever...
[13:29:53] <stpeter> heh
[13:29:54] <stpeter> true
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[14:25:17] HanzZ is going to try to compile his transport with the newest gloox
[14:30:12] <darkrain42> Gloox 1 is fairly incompatible with 0.9 (just a warning)
[14:30:45] <HanzZ> I know
[14:31:34] <HanzZ> but I don't want to backport more features from gloox devel to my branch
[14:34:14] <HanzZ> and I think I would have to do it in future anyway
[14:37:01] <Tobias> HanzZ: so what do you think about gloox? :)
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[14:37:59] <HanzZ> there is no better library for C++ :)
[14:38:47] <MattJ> Agreed there :)
[14:38:48] <Tobias> HanzZ: have you even tried iris?
[14:38:50] <Tobias> :)
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[14:39:45] <HanzZ> hm, I was affraid because of Qt dependency
[14:39:56] <HanzZ> so I choose Gloox
[14:40:22] <Tobias> HanzZ: understandable :)
[14:40:52] <HanzZ> and from my point of view gloox has also better liscensing
[14:41:09] <bjc> i thought it was gpl?
[14:41:28] <bjc> we have a consultant using it, but that's about all i know
[14:41:41] <HanzZ> yes, but you can buy closed source license
[14:41:50] <bjc> ah
[14:42:02] <bjc> doesn't matter much to us. we're gonna give our stuff away, so gpl is fine
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[14:45:33] <HanzZ> for my transport gpl is also fine, but I don't like libraries which can restrict me in future (is "restrict me" proper way how to say it?)
[14:45:37] <HanzZ> this is why I
[14:45:48] <HanzZ> I'm using gloox :)
[14:46:01] <bjc> gpl does, indeed, restrict you
[14:47:50] <HanzZ> I agree with gpl, but I don't understand why some developers don't want to sell their work :) in my opinion double-licensing is the best
[14:48:10] <bjc> the copyright holder can do whatever they want
[14:48:21] <bjc> it's just the people who use their work that have limitations
[14:48:32] <HanzZ> yes, this is what I wanted to say
[14:48:55] <MattJ> We decided to go with MIT, saves all the hassle :)
[14:49:03] <Tobias> HanzZ: but you didn't really have a choice on the other hand? i mean libpurple is already GPL, so you are trapped
[14:49:05] <Tobias> MattJ: ;)
[14:49:14] <HanzZ> Tobias: true
[14:49:16] <bjc> i'm going public domain these days. there's nothing more hassle-free =)
[14:50:11] <HanzZ> but for example I can decide to not release transport and keep it only for jabbim.cz...
[14:51:11] <Tobias> HanzZ: since you are coding under GSoC, you can't IIRC :)
[14:51:21] <darkrain42> Right :)
[14:51:31] <HanzZ> I know I can't now :-P
[14:52:14] <Tobias> HanzZ: i understand you...quite heavy restrictions google is putting on you by having you to publish the open source code :P
[14:52:16] <Tobias> ;)
[14:53:39] <HanzZ> It's not problem for me :) It's my decision to release it under gpl :)
[14:54:14] <Tobias> HanzZ: as far as project idea was your decision, right :)
[14:54:44] <Tobias> i mean from the point you decided to go with either libpurple or gloox you have also decided to release as gpl :)
[14:54:46] <HanzZ> well :) i also like dolars.. that's true
[14:54:54] <Tobias> HanzZ: who doesn't :)
[14:55:05] <bjc> i'm not a big fan
[14:55:06] <bjc> =P
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[14:55:26] <Tobias> HanzZ: and it's imo nothing bad in getting paid by a company to write open source code
[14:55:28] <HanzZ> I wanted to switch from JIT to something what works
[14:56:03] <HanzZ> and I had to do it fast
[14:56:18] <HanzZ> and libpurple is one of the best libraries :)
[15:00:07] <HanzZ> Tobias: it's good to be paid for open source... for me it's great experience. :)
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[15:06:20] HanzZ has just executed "make" with new gloox and found out that this will be long night
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[15:06:58] <Tobias> HanzZ: have fun bug hunting :)
[15:07:30] <HanzZ> I hope Js will be online tomorrow :)
[15:07:46] <js> hm?
[15:07:47] <js> I'm online
[15:08:44] <Tobias> js: he meant the other js
[15:08:52] <Tobias> but his nick is usually kolp
[15:08:55] <HanzZ> heh :) I mean Jakob Schroeter
[15:09:02] <js> the other js? I'm the only js here, that nick's registered :P
[15:09:21] TuX leaves the room
[15:09:22] <HanzZ> but nice to meet you anyway :-P
[15:09:36] <js> Tobias, i guess initials are just to ambiguous :/
[15:09:39] <js> *too
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[15:09:58] <Tobias> js: yeah
[15:10:23] <HanzZ> well :) his jid starts with js... so I started to call him so
[15:10:39] <js> HanzZ, uhm, no, his JID starts with admin@
[15:10:42] <js> and is followed by his domain
[15:10:57] <HanzZ> I have js@ in roster
[15:11:02] Tobias too
[15:11:08] <js> Offline since Thu May 28 00:13:27 2009
[15:11:10] <js> hmm
[15:11:18] <js> that is today
[15:11:21] Tobias like initial jids
[15:11:23] <js> so it seems he still uses the admin@ JID
[15:11:44] <HanzZ> he uses jd@ too
[15:11:48] <HanzZ> *js
[15:12:07] <js> hmm, I should write a script that registers js@ as soon as a new server appears on the list :D
[15:12:26] <darkrain42> HanzZ: Do you know what's up with his bug tracker/svn repository?
[15:12:39] <Tobias> js: those kind of scripts aren't well received in the community...i've tested it ;)
[15:12:58] <Tobias> darkrain42: what's wrong with it?
[15:13:18] <darkrain42> http://bugs.camaya.net/ (just look)
[15:13:34] <darkrain42> and svn returns, I believe, a blank page
[15:13:35] <Tobias> i guess that's just broken
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[15:13:49] <Tobias> svn checkout via client works though
[15:13:55] <HanzZ> well, I was using this url: https://mail.camaya.net/horde/whups/search.php
[15:13:59] <HanzZ> some months ago
[15:14:21] <darkrain42> ooo, a new Firefox security warning
[15:14:55] <darkrain42> oh, it loads! Thanks!
[15:15:02] <js> darkrain42, security warning as in "there's some new security problem, please update"?
[15:15:13] <HanzZ> darkrain42: np
[15:17:24] <darkrain42> FF 3.5 has a new "This site has an expired certificate" dialog, I think
[15:17:47] <js> darkrain42, ah, ok. thought I have to update my firefox _AGAIN_.
[15:17:57] <js> (it feels like there's a new version every week lately)
[15:18:44] <HanzZ> hm... I should probably create blog.
[15:19:19] <darkrain42> heh, but open source software is secure!
[15:23:08] <bjc> i dunno if you're kidding or not, but i believe it's a better methodology for building secure software than the closed source model
[15:23:10] <bjc> linus' law, and all
[15:23:34] <js> bjc, opensource is not secure per se
[15:23:46] <bjc> i didn't call it secure
[15:23:47] <darkrain42> Right, I was half-joking.
[15:24:07] <bjc> i did call it a better method of generating secure software
[15:31:22] <remko> HanzZ, Tobias: soon, you'll be able to try Swiften, the Swift C++ library ;-)
[15:31:53] <darkrain42> remko: Have you decided on a license?
[15:33:15] <Tobias> remko: omg ;)
[15:33:31] <HanzZ> remko: anyway, I would like to help with swift in the future
[15:33:44] <remko> darkrain42: lord, no :)
[15:33:51] <HanzZ> I mean with developing :)
[15:33:56] <remko> darkrain42: important things first, code ;-)
[15:34:48] <darkrain42> Hahaha, well, the last I read, you hadn't decided on whether to open source it or not.
[15:35:45] <Tobias> darkrain42: lol
[15:36:21] <remko> darkrain42: not going open source would make it a lot less useful
[15:39:10] HanzZ hopes that's the last time he rewrites it to new gloox
[15:39:33] <darkrain42> HanzZ: That's right, next time you'll be rewriting to swiften :-P
[15:40:16] <remko> swiften's pretty neat
[15:40:40] <HanzZ> darkrain42: :/
[15:41:02] <Tobias> remko: how about getting it released?
[15:41:11] <darkrain42> remko: All this talk, maybe it's going to be Duke Nukem Forever?
[15:41:12] darkrain42 runs away
[15:41:20] <remko> darkrain42: it's certainly starting to look that way, isn't it :)
[15:41:29] <stpeter> :P
[15:41:38] <darkrain42> You have a few more years before that insult will stick.
[15:41:43] <HanzZ> remko: release it :) maybe you save my work :)
[15:42:02] <HanzZ> :-P
[15:42:29] <Tobias> remko: it's usual when you promote first then advertise it everywhere and as last step create the actual product :D
[15:42:44] <Tobias> i mean what did you expect :)
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[15:43:14] <remko> Tobias: well, swiften hasn't changed much since the announcement
[15:43:42] <Tobias> and that what timespan? half a year?
[15:43:45] <remko> Tobias: the backend was created in only a few weeks. It's the UI that takes up most of the time.
[15:45:01] <remko> Tobias: who knows. We're trying to work as fast as we can.
[15:45:35] <Tobias> remko: that's what 3drealms said too while developing duke nukem forever ;)
[15:46:17] <remko> Tobias: 3rdrealms wasn't consisting of a team that had long dayjobs and of which half of it was knee-deep in planning big events ;-)
[15:48:48] <Tobias> to what big events are you referring?
[15:49:11] <remko> the biggest one
[15:49:27] <remko> well, most important one at least
[15:52:44] <stpeter> http://jabbermania.blogspot.com/2009/05/google-took-api-step.html
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[16:08:36] <HanzZ> yeah, main.cpp is compiled :-P
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[16:27:05] <stpeter> wow, harsh: http://gigaom.com/2009/05/28/google-climbs-to-new-heights-of-arrogance-with-wave/
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[16:30:16] <cbas> Pretty interesting this Wave stuff. Anyone have access yet?
[16:30:49] <stpeter> hi cbas!
[16:30:54] <cbas> hey Peter
[16:31:40] <remko> hey cbas
[16:31:41] cbas wishes his new product wasn't *that* similar to Wave... though the imitation is flattering? ;)
[16:31:49] <stpeter> haha
[16:32:33] <bjc> i take that as a good sign - i mean, wave is gonna be in beta for *years*
[16:32:50] <bjc> if google came out with what we're doing, i'd be pretty excited
[16:32:55] <remko> stpeter: it seems it's google bashing time again ;-)
[16:33:03] <stpeter> yep
[16:33:22] <stpeter> everyone's gotta have someone to bash
[16:33:29] <stpeter> and Google is a convenient target
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[16:33:52] <bjc> well they're so damn easy to hit!
[16:34:22] <stpeter> yep
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[16:36:07] <remko> stpeter: damn google and their high income. I think i'll bash them a bit too!
[16:37:14] <cbas> last week I met someone in a similar situation... he was building a feedback widget at a startup but Uservoice launched 2 weeks before them so now he's looking for a job :-s
[16:37:50] <remko> well, i find it hard to believe that releasing a service 2 weeks before another means you're out of a job
[16:37:59] <cbas> I'm not really that worried though :) it's cool to see Wave doing some heavy lifting in terms of protocol design
[16:38:00] <remko> you'll have to differentiate anyway, and the best will win
[16:38:24] <remko> well, not necessarily the best, but not the first either
[16:38:55] <cbas> remko: I'm sure it was more complex than that too, but being first to market can make a big difference
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[16:39:15] <remko> cbas: true, but 2 weeks? Anyway, could be.
[16:39:49] <remko> look at ICQ
[16:39:59] <remko> they had a monopoly on IM AFAIK.
[16:40:03] <bjc> hey, icq was really popular for a couple years there
[16:40:19] <bjc> probably woulda stayed that way but for the 129381398712938713 user ids
[16:40:27] <remko> bjc: you said it, was. They were the first, the only, the best, and still lost their position
[16:40:42] <cbas> ICQ99b and its bloatware is the reason I started building my own IM client... with blackjack, and hookers
[16:40:42] <remko> anyway, those were different times
[16:40:48] <remko> cbas: in fact
[16:40:59] <remko> cbas: forget about the blackjack and the IM client
[16:41:01] <bjc> well, monopoly position for even a short amount of time is pretty enviable
[16:41:07] <cbas> remko: :D
[16:42:43] <Jean-Marc Liotier> I wonder why no one built an ICQ look-alike IRC client at that time.
[16:45:47] <bjc> because irc clients already had universally terrible user interfaces?
[16:46:07] <MattJ> Jean-Marc Liotier, Miranda? there was a cross-platform one too, which I think supported IRC
[16:47:02] <Kev> bjc: I've still not found an xmpp client with a UI that I find as usable as irssi
[16:47:10] <bjc> bitlbee!
[16:47:11] <bjc> =)
[16:47:20] <bjc> actually, i'm a huge fan of adium
[16:47:34] <bjc> it's the only decent im client
[16:47:51] <remko> Kev: this is your chance to create your own one, also with hookers, and blackjack!
[16:47:52] <Kev> bitlbee does a good job, but it doesn't quite manage to munge xmpp into irc
[16:47:55] <bjc> apologies to psi/tkabber/swift devs present
[16:48:02] <Jean-Marc Liotier> "Miranda IM was first started by Roland Rabien (figbug) on February 2, 2000. At that time, it was a minimalist ICQ clone and officially called Miranda ICQ." From Wikipedia
[16:48:09] <Kev> Do we need blackjack?
[16:50:19] <Kev> And yes, btw, I think Adium gets a good number of things right.
[16:50:42] <Jean-Marc Liotier> But IRC in Miranda appeared only in June 2003 - and at that time we were already using Jabber...
[16:51:07] <johnny> i'm happy enough with gajim and the one window interface.. ..
[16:51:20] <johnny> altho i still want a good console one.. and bitlbee and irssi doesn't cut it
[16:51:38] <bjc> emacs probably has an xmpp-mode! =)
[16:51:44] <Kev> It has.
[16:52:17] <johnny> adium... that's some mac osx only thing huh
[16:52:22] <johnny> too bad
[16:52:40] <bjc> putting it on windows would be pearls before swine
[16:52:43] bjc ducks
[16:53:09] <johnny> windows.. i'm not a windows guy
[16:53:21] <bjc> everything else is even worse~
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[16:53:40] <johnny> i'm happy enough right now :)
[16:53:43] <stpeter> bjc: :)
[16:54:45] <bjc> there's something wrong with you people. i say incendiary things so i can have some fun at the end of the day, and there's not even one taker
[16:55:11] <Kev> bjc: so's your face.
[16:55:17] <bjc> thank you!
[16:55:19] <bjc> time to drink
[16:55:22] bjc waves
[16:55:24] bjc leaves the room
[16:55:48] <Jean-Marc Liotier> Among Linux people, a Mac vs. Windows troll is not going to have much success...
[16:56:00] <stpeter> I like bjc, he's fun :)
[16:56:03] <darkrain42> OS/2!
[16:56:03] <johnny> i don't need to prove some OS machine nonsense
[16:56:10] <Kev> Oh, I think there are a good number of Mac users in here.
[16:56:13] <johnny> err macho .. weird correction
[16:56:21] <remko> obviously
[16:56:23] <stpeter> and bjc has given me lots of good feedback on XEP-0060 so I like him :)
[16:56:26] cbas uses Win7 ...
[16:56:27] <remko> everybody knows mac is the best one
[16:56:30] <remko> even i know that
[16:56:38] <johnny> bjc is helpful for all ejabberd folks...
[16:56:46] <Kev> remko: and you were one of the authors on a great XMPP book, so you must be right? :)
[16:56:51] <johnny> hehe
[16:56:57] <stpeter> heh
[16:57:03] <stpeter> does HAL know about the book?
[16:57:06] <stpeter> !book
[16:57:08] <xepbot> XMPP: The Definitive Guide - http://oreilly.com/catalog/9780596157197/
[16:57:10] <stpeter> yay!
[16:57:15] <cbas> lol
[16:57:35] <stpeter> I wonder how many copies we've sold so far -- are we into triple digits yet? ;-)
[16:57:40] <remko> man, font sellers are gangsters
[16:57:47] <stpeter> remko: yeah
[16:57:47] <cbas> which reminds me I need to order a dozen or so copies
[16:57:53] <remko> 268$ for a font family? wtf
[16:57:54] <stpeter> cbas: we love you
[16:58:06] <stpeter> cbas: hey, I need to ping you about some domain names
[16:58:11] stpeter fires up a PM
[16:58:19] <Tobias> remko: well...i think there aren't a lot good font designers around the world
[16:58:33] <cbas> I'm getting the Indian printed edition so it'll cost only as much as two or three US/EU books
[16:58:47] <remko> Tobias: i agree
[16:59:06] <remko> Tobias: but there aren't a lot of people paying for fonts either, and i'm starting to understand why
[16:59:29] <Tobias> well..mostly designers and so i think... :)
[16:59:56] <Tobias> remko: and hight quality OpenType fonts are even rarer
[16:59:57] <Tobias> :)
[17:00:18] darkrain42 leaves the room
[17:00:23] <remko> Tobias: i just want a good serif, sans, and mono font for my .pdf documents
[17:00:33] darkrain42 joins the room
[17:00:50] <remko> inconsolata's ok, but it's not exactly what i wanted either
[17:01:08] <Tobias> "good" has 30 different interpretations in this room i guess
[17:01:08] <Tobias> :D
[17:01:20] <waqas> remko: See the latest post at http://diveintomark.org/ ^^
[17:01:29] <remko> Tobias: kick-ass?
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[17:04:12] <remko> waqas: ha no, i didn't
[17:04:37] <Tobias> well..gn8
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[17:07:43] <remko> waqas: hehe
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[17:39:58] <nolan> Hey, is there anything new and exciting happening in the world of transports? Specifically, for YIM?
[17:40:16] <nolan> Just discovered today that my cobbled-together py-yimt install died.
[17:40:28] <stpeter> nolan: I doubt it -- transports are so 1999 :P
[17:40:51] nolan sighs, was afraid of that.
[17:42:12] <MattJ> What about the GSoC project to create libpurple transports?
[17:42:33] <nolan> Not finding much on Thrasher other than the repo and an out-of-date webpage, and while Kraken's site claims that it does/will work with other servers, I can't see how that might be at the moment.
[17:42:45] nolan nods, saw a link to that, but all I can find ATM is a description.
[17:43:11] <MattJ> Keep an eye out for HanzZ, he was in here just earlier
[17:43:28] <nolan> Cool, will do, thanks.
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