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jdev@conference.jabber.org
Thursday, 14 May 2009< ^ >
dwd has set the subject to: Jabber/XMPP Development | Logs: http://logs.jabber.org/jdev@conference.jabber.org/
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[02:33:01] <powerjdm> Yo
[02:33:20] <Mazzachre> Hi
[02:33:54] <powerjdm> How is every one this morning?
[02:35:03] <Mazzachre> If I want to use PEP from a bot to send some performance stats and operational data, how should i go about that? And how to subscribe to that?
[02:37:52] <Mazzachre> powerjdm: Can't answer for everyone, but personally I am fine :D
[02:39:30] <powerjdm> Mazzachre: thats always good, so whats going on in here?
[02:40:15] <Mazzachre> Not much :) Usually questions about how to develop stuff for clients and servers etc :)
[02:41:25] <powerjdm> Any one know anything about the nokia n810?
[02:42:05] <waqas> Mazzachre: The same way you would go about doing UserTune, etc.
[02:42:17] <waqas> Mazzachre: Example of publishing an item: http://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0163.html#example-1
[02:42:47] <Mazzachre> waqas: Simply send the namespace with a +notify in the presence?
[02:43:06] <powerjdm> I really am a noob to all of this.
[02:43:29] <waqas> No, add the namespace+notify in your disco response, and add caps to your presence (of the subscriber)
[02:44:14] <waqas> powerjdm: The nokia device I have is a phone, not a tablet :)
[02:45:27] <waqas> Mazzachre: The publisher doesn't need to do caps and presence, only the subscriber does. And the subscriber also needs to have a subscription to the publisher (added as a contact).
[02:46:03] <waqas> powerjdm: Though I wish I had a tablet. I'm reading a book on my phone at the moment.
[02:48:02] <powerjdm> Oh. I whave the tablet, got it 2 weeks ago and i feel like im not using it to its full power
[02:48:11] <Mazzachre> waqas: Ya, I am using the roster for access control in my system...
[02:48:20] <powerjdm> See, i wanna do that!
[02:48:57] <powerjdm> I DL the book reader and dont know how to get the books
[02:49:51] <waqas> Which reader do you have? Or more importantly, what formats does it support?
[02:50:27] <Alex> powerjdm: I use mine only for webbrowsing, the display is great, but IMHO to small for reading. YOu can't compare it with real ebook devices
[02:51:38] <Alex> but its a nice toy ;-)
[02:51:40] <powerjdm> Waqas: fbreader.
[02:52:25] <powerjdm> Yeah i love it. Thats actually what im on rite now!
[02:53:33] <powerjdm> Well i dont want do DL the lord of the rings book set, just a book here or there ya know!?
[02:55:04] waqas is reading Sunborn - The Chaos Chronicles IV
[02:55:14] <waqas> Not something I'd recommened though
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[02:56:43] <powerjdm> Oh well. I guess i have to go buy anothe little toy! :P
[02:58:17] waqas hasn't had a new toy to play with in a while
[02:58:49] <Kev> My newest toyish thing was an American Strat, with which I'm very happy. Before that it was an eee
[02:59:47] <powerjdm> Well i just had a baby boy 2 weeks ago so who know when the new toy will be in my reach. But i can window shop! Eh
[02:59:50] <remko> waqas: tablets aren't that ideal for reeading. I much more prefer a proper eBook reader.
[03:01:13] <waqas> remko: Yeah, I have been meaning to get a proper reader for a while.
[03:01:23] <powerjdm> I was gonna get an eee but i just like the size of the n810 and what all it can do for the price
[03:01:57] <Kev> My eee would probably be more useful if I could use my mobile as a modem for it.
[03:02:00] <Kev> But I can't :/
[03:02:05] <powerjdm> and beside, every one is always like wow thats nice
[03:02:30] <powerjdm> Hot Spots!
[03:06:13] <Alex> powerjdm: an eee isnt good for reading as well. ebooks have a totally different displays. ebooks like irex have crystal clear displays, much easier to read on them. And much better for your eyes if you read for several hours.
[03:08:55] <Kev> Yes, I wouldn't use my eee for reading PDFs for very long.
[03:09:01] <powerjdm> Sorry i should have been clearon what i was talking about, i was looking a small device the i can check my email with and keep notes and music, not a ereader. Its only till now that i have the nokia that im looking into readers!
[03:10:49] <powerjdm> I do alot of auto work and being able to check a wiring diagram with out having to carry around a laptop is nice
[03:12:43] <Alex> ya, its a nice device. Same here. When I am sitting on the couch in the evening its nice to check emails, or surf on teh web without strating the laptop. And the browser on the Nokia is really great
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[03:15:11] <powerjdm> Yeah, for what the specs are on this thing its nice and fast. One thing i dont like is the freezing. And some apps only work when they want.
[03:15:38] <powerjdm> Any one know where else i can get apps?
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[03:25:58] <powerjdm> Not all at once! You guys will freez my device
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[05:40:24] <cstar> hi all
[05:50:54] <Sylvain Hellegouarch> hi cstar
[05:51:22] <cstar> Hey sylvain !
[05:52:48] <Sylvain Hellegouarch> how are things?
[05:53:06] <Sylvain Hellegouarch> how are the ejabberd modules coming?
[05:53:16] <Sylvain Hellegouarch> I'm really interested in the AWS support
[05:53:33] <cstar> quite fine. I'll be pushing them to github within a few minutes :)
[05:53:54] <Sylvain Hellegouarch> sweet
[05:54:12] <Sylvain Hellegouarch> I was wondering about performances though since you add some extra latency with those HTTP requests
[05:54:25] <cstar> It depends on what modules
[05:54:36] <cstar> auth and mod_muc are fine
[05:54:47] <cstar> cause there's only one call over to AWS
[05:54:58] <cstar> for pubsub, there's a lot of latency added
[05:55:15] <Sylvain Hellegouarch> right
[05:55:35] <Sylvain Hellegouarch> I suppose that's okay mind you as long as the ejabberd nodes don't timeout
[05:55:38] <cstar> from my laptop to AWS (on mod_pubsub preoptimization) I had around 20 seconds of latency
[05:55:43] <Sylvain Hellegouarch> ouch
[05:55:50] <cstar> on EC2, it's fine though
[05:55:56] <Sylvain Hellegouarch> a memcached support in between might help?
[05:56:06] <cstar> but erlsdb and and erls3 have memcached support
[05:56:21] <cstar> yes it's back to instant ;)
[05:56:42] <cstar> but I haven't benched the latest optimizations
[05:57:12] <Sylvain Hellegouarch> right
[05:57:17] <cstar> Christophe Romain told me that there are fewer queries now on the node_* and nodetree_*
[05:57:19] <Sylvain Hellegouarch> this is really cool
[05:57:27] <Sylvain Hellegouarch> yeah there are, mostly because of us :p
[05:57:36] <cstar> thnks (and for that too ;)
[05:58:24] <Sylvain Hellegouarch> I'm working on some stuff to help load testing of XMPP servers
[05:58:35] <Sylvain Hellegouarch> nothing usable yet but it's coming along nicely
[05:59:01] <cstar> based on tsung or homegrown (w/ python of course ;) ) ?
[05:59:11] <Sylvain Hellegouarch> homegrown
[05:59:15] <Sylvain Hellegouarch> and yeap python :)
[05:59:24] <Sylvain Hellegouarch> with a Qt4 frontend
[05:59:58] <Sylvain Hellegouarch> I will then add support for unit testing based on how Tigase designed unit tests
[06:00:58] <cstar> sounds great !
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[06:02:43] <Sylvain Hellegouarch> well should be fun if it works out :p
[06:04:41] <cstar> and quite necessary for ejabberd ;)
[06:05:13] <Sylvain Hellegouarch> :)
[06:05:46] <cstar> Ok, pushed the CloudEnabled ejabberd here http://github.com/cstar/ejabberd/tree/master [http://github.com/cstar/ejabberd/tree/master]
[06:05:56] <Sylvain Hellegouarch> ejabberd is fast and scalable for most basic services, we only had trouble with pubsub but I can understand it's more difficult
[06:06:36] <cstar> yeah I do feel the pain for C. Romain. That XEP is tough.
[06:08:30] <cstar> thanks for the tweet!
[06:08:50] <Sylvain Hellegouarch> np :)
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[06:34:51] <Lawouach> cstar: what's the coverage of pubsub in CloudEnabled?
[06:35:31] <cstar> same as ejabberd trunk
[06:35:38] <cstar> merged yesterday
[06:35:53] <Lawouach> right
[06:35:56] <Lawouach> very nice
[06:37:00] <cstar> bjc updates every hour his ejabberd github, my own is based on a fork from his, so it's just git everyday magic happening ;)
[06:37:22] <Lawouach> eh eh nice
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[06:40:05] <crypto36> :)
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[08:30:18] <Mazzachre> What is supposed to happen if you connect 2 identical JIDs to a server? (same resource)...
[08:37:32] <MattJ> Mazzachre, either the new one is denied, or the old one is disconnected
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[08:39:21] <cstar> server can choose - configurable in OpenFire, if I recall well
[08:40:00] <MattJ> Indeed, configurable in Prosody also
[08:40:28] <MattJ> Oh yes, and we have a third option... which appends to the new resource a number
[08:40:42] <cstar> and I think ejabberd denies the new one with a conflict error
[08:40:44] <MattJ> because the server isn't obliged to give the client the resource it requests
[08:40:50] <cstar> true
[08:40:54] <MattJ> ejabberd kicks the old one without question
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[09:13:43] <Mazzachre> ok thx
[09:13:54] <Mazzachre> good
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[09:22:47] <dfkitest> hi
[09:22:55] <MattJ> Hi
[09:23:36] <dfkitest> I'm having some troubles with smack... is this chatroom okay to ask something about it? :)
[09:23:45] <MattJ> Sure
[09:23:52] <MattJ> Though I'm not sure how many smack users are here
[09:24:04] <MattJ> but no harm in asking :)
[09:30:07] <dfkitest> well... actually it's a general jabber issue: when I send a message to my client BEFORE i have sent a message from the client to my test messanger (which is pidgin), there is a new chat created with every single message...
[09:30:13] <dfkitest> what is the reason fo that?
[09:30:28] <dfkitest> what do I get wrong about jabber?
[09:30:55] <dfkitest> I thought chats are only created once
[09:31:06] <cstar> do you set the message id ?
[09:31:24] <MattJ> I've heard this one before with smack
[09:31:46] <MattJ> It creates a new <thread/> for every message, or something odd
[09:31:49] <dfkitest> cstar: I guess not, because I don't know what a message id is :)
[09:31:58] <MattJ> You aren't the first person to come here with this problem
[09:32:38] <dfkitest> MattJ: oh yes.. that is exactly what I get here... heeps of new chat threads...
[09:33:51] <MattJ> dfkitest, http://logs.jabber.org/jdev@conference.jabber.org/2008-09-10.html#15:35:57
[09:33:52] <xepbot> Prosody issue 15: s2s sessions &amp; vhosts can get mixed up, assigned to MattJ with status: Fixed
[09:34:01] <MattJ> o-O
[09:34:05] <deryni> Haha.
[09:34:21] MattJ uncomments a condition he commented while debugging
[09:35:08] <MattJ> !reload
[09:35:09] <xepbot> Reloaded ok
[09:35:11] <MattJ> #15
[09:35:13] <MattJ> Better
[09:35:41] MattJ also fixes &amp; while it's on his mind
[09:36:26] <deryni> Is that painful? I'd imagine the little tail thing would dig in something fierce.
[09:36:57] <MattJ> :)
[09:42:26] <dfkitest> MattJ: thanks found a patch for smack... works fine :)
[09:47:52] <dfkitest> I love jabber... it is so easy :D
[09:48:29] <MattJ> :)
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[10:24:42] <Gosia> lo
[10:24:42] <Gosia> lkgh
[10:24:42] <Gosia> h
[10:24:43] <Gosia> gh
[10:24:47] <Gosia> jkOOcham
[10:24:48] <Gosia> was
[10:24:53] <Gosia> POprOstu
[10:24:55] <Gosia> SEX
x
[10:24:59] <Gosia> SEXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX
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[10:32:05] <MattJ> Hmm
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[10:36:45] stpeter can't make head nor tails of all the chatter in his identi.ca feed so stops trying
[10:38:35] <MattJ> stpeter, mostly dwd giving history lessons :)
[10:38:46] <stpeter> so it seemed
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[10:39:09] <johnny> i still don't have identica account because i don't think i'd be able to handle that influx
[10:39:27] <johnny> then i can imagine i tie that into facebook and myspace feeds.. sounds like a recipe for disaster..
[10:39:33] <johnny> and twitter
[10:39:42] <stpeter> I don't think that you can productive discuss history or philosophy or somesuch in 140 characters
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[10:40:07] <stpeter> I think it's interesting to try, though :)
[10:40:14] <johnny> stpeter, isn't that a matter of client display ?
[10:40:17] <stpeter> 140 characters is a real mental challenge
[10:40:26] <stpeter> and that challenge can be invigorating
[10:40:32] <stpeter> johnny: no
[10:40:34] <johnny> skype client and ichat default would make it look like all one thing
[10:40:56] <johnny> how they put it all in conversation bubbles by user
[10:42:34] <stpeter> ah
[10:42:35] <stpeter> sure
[10:42:41] <stpeter> but that would be weird
[10:43:13] <stpeter> what if I type 21 words totally 145 characters -- will the 21st word be sent in a separate message?
[10:43:22] <stpeter> that wouldn't work well in microblogging
[10:44:52] <johnny> i don't get teh 140 character limit in general tho ..
[10:44:57] <johnny> stpeter, you're weird
[10:45:15] <johnny> hehe
[10:45:28] <stpeter> everyone is weird, it's just a question of exactly how
[10:46:02] <stpeter> that would make a good microblog :)
[10:46:09] stpeter posts it on identi.ca :P
[10:46:31] <Kev> Except me, who's perfectly normal.
[10:46:51] <stpeter> natch
[10:47:07] <stpeter> oneself is always the apparent exception :)
[10:48:44] <Kev> Oh, yes, I know everyone perceives that.
[10:48:49] <Kev> But for me, it's actually true :)
[10:49:47] <Florob> Kev, no, you are weird, because you are the only one who's normal :P
[10:50:58] <deryni> Kev the Sane?
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[11:14:43] <Tobias> stpeter: any news on server OS update? :) or shall i ask back next year ;)
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[13:20:52] <notKev> testing...
[13:21:33] <motоr> Kev: notKev: :-D
[13:22:02] <Tobias> stpeter: ping
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[13:27:36] <stpeter> Tobias: pong
[13:27:47] <stpeter> (sorry, eating lunch and doing 6 other things)
[13:28:02] <motоr> :-D
[13:28:21] <FloT> Is one of them the DNS howto? ;)
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[13:28:51] <stpeter> FloT: not yet
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[14:05:54] stpeter fires off another email about XEP-0237!!!
[14:06:40] stpeter cranks up the old Billie Holiday tunes and cranks out yet another XEP
[14:08:48] <MattJ> stpeter, :)
[14:09:11] <stpeter> I utterly fail to see what the interop problem is here
[14:09:16] <MattJ> I think I've said enough that I'm happy with the current XEP, I've put down some solutions which may please others, but I don't really have much more to say
[14:09:27] <MattJ> Me also
[14:09:31] <stpeter> it's like saying that every server needs to use the same password storage method
[14:09:36] <MattJ> Indeed
[14:09:36] <stpeter> or something like that
[14:09:45] <stpeter> now, you might argue for server agility
[14:09:48] <stpeter> and I could buy that
[14:09:54] <stpeter> but that's not an interop issue
[14:10:06] <stpeter> the ball's in his court
[14:10:15] stpeter goes back to writing the SIFT spec ;-)
[14:10:21] <MattJ> Yes, but the point is that making it opaque gives everyone what they want :)
[14:10:26] <MattJ> or so it should
[14:10:34] <MattJ> But it just feels like a lot of people are missing that
[14:10:41] <stpeter> SIFT = Stanza Interception and Filtering Technology :)
[14:10:50] <MattJ> Ah, that was my next question :)
[14:10:53] <stpeter> a way to tell the server "hey I want these stanzas but not those"
[14:11:01] <MattJ> Privacy rules++? :)
[14:11:08] <stpeter> worked it out with metajack and hildjj yesterday
[14:11:20] <stpeter> right now it's only for incoming
[14:11:27] <MattJ> s/rules/lists/
[14:11:28] <stpeter> basically to handle all those fun mobile cases
[14:11:43] <stpeter> and get rid of the <priority>-1</priority> hack
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[14:12:03] <stpeter> hi vArDo!
[14:12:17] <stpeter> anyway I'll finish the doc and then you can take a look :)
[14:12:25] <MattJ> :)
[14:12:29] <darco> hopefully it includes a way to get the stanzas you missed when you say that you are interested again. :)
[14:13:00] <darco> sorry I haven't been terribly active in such discussions lately, I've just been swamped.
[14:13:01] <stpeter> darco: how do you know they're not stale? (but yes)
[14:13:06] <stpeter> darco: no worries
[14:13:16] <vArDo> hi stpeter :
[14:13:22] <vArDo> :)
[14:13:28] <stpeter> darco: you did come up while metajack and I were discussing this at Gluecon yesterday :)
[14:14:28] <darco> stpeter: well, if I was a mobile device not interested in presence, and then I said I was interested in presence again, I would like to think that the server would send me some of the presence stanzas I missed, at least enough for my roster to be accurate again.
[14:14:35] <stpeter> right
[14:14:39] <stpeter> that's the idea
[14:14:48] <stpeter> this is mainly for session hush
[14:15:50] <stpeter> but also for simple invisibility -- "register" for incoming stanzas but never send presence
[14:16:40] <Sylvain Hellegouarch> At work we are running into serious issues to keep connections alive when the device goes to sleep
[14:16:51] <Sylvain Hellegouarch> at least on the android platform it's a bit of a nightmare
[14:16:57] <bear> does SIFT == XSLT for XMPP ?
[14:17:01] <stpeter> Sylvain Hellegouarch: you are using TCP or BOSH?
[14:17:05] <Sylvain Hellegouarch> both
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[14:17:12] <stpeter> bear: maybe :)
[14:17:19] <darco> I've been thinking about a UDP-based XMLStream transport mechanism that would be optimized for mobile cases... It would give the device some flexibility as to when it should fire up the radio to send acks. (so that it can keep the radio in the listen state longer without having to power it up for transmit every time it receives a new TCP packet)
[14:17:26] <bear> *pretty please*
[14:17:33] <Sylvain Hellegouarch> keep alive isn't well handled due to device going to sleep
[14:17:35] <stpeter> bear: we talked about XPath matching but decided that would be too complex
[14:18:03] <darco> stpeter: implementation-wise?
[14:18:07] <bear> pish-posh
[14:18:48] <stpeter> bear: SIFT will be extensible, so people could add XPath if desired
[14:19:01] <stpeter> first pass will be namespace matching for IQ payloads
[14:19:05] <bear> but yea, I can see mobile needing a filtering method and the server exposing different api's for complex/simple filters
[14:19:13] <stpeter> (e.g., let in Jingle calls but not version requests or whatever)
[14:19:35] <bear> so it's a client side capabilities list?
[14:19:51] <bear> similiar to http-accept then
[14:19:59] <stpeter> kind of yeah
[14:20:05] <stpeter> at least that's the initial idea
[14:20:10] <stpeter> we'll see what becomes of it :)
[14:20:12] <bear> coolness
[14:21:17] stpeter wonders whatever became of the telnet-to-XMPP converter we had in jabberd 1.0 or 0.9 or thereabouts, given that someone is asking him for such a beast
[14:21:57] <Sylvain Hellegouarch> stpeter, in any case, I would be surprised that the connection loss issue becomes more and more a real one once we have more mobile applications expecting a socket to stay alive
[14:22:07] <Sylvain Hellegouarch> currently it requires quite a few hacks
[14:22:17] <Sylvain Hellegouarch> at least my colleagues are getting desperate :)
[14:22:17] stpeter surfs around in http://archive.jabber.org/core/
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[14:23:16] <stpeter> I love old docs like http://archive.jabber.org/core/jeremiad.html :)
[14:23:33] <stpeter> and http://archive.jabber.org/core/summer.html
[14:23:35] <stpeter> and so on
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[14:23:48] <stpeter> life was so much easier back then, no big process :)
[14:25:00] <bear> servers you could count on one hand, clients on two...
[14:25:12] <stpeter> s/hand/finger/
[14:25:18] <bear> :)
[14:27:54] <Sylvain Hellegouarch> http://archive.jabber.org/core/summer.html#anchor77 <-- did you mix with your grocery notes of people you had invited?
[14:28:21] <stpeter> ask Jer :)
[14:28:39] <MattJ> stpeter, oooh, and it's not even my birthday :)
[14:28:52] MattJ loves reading archived things :)
[14:29:29] <stpeter> oh fun http://archive.jabber.org/downloads/dists/
[14:32:03] stpeter goes back to SIFT
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[14:35:56] <stpeter> MattJ: oh BTW I had an interesting IM session the other day with a former member of the IETF security mafia about user registration and password storage (or the lack thereof) -- he suggested that we could do TLS with a client-generated cert on the first login attempt, where the cert would contain the user's desired JID, and the server would create that account if it didn't exist and store the public key (i.e, registration = registering your cert with the server) -- after that you do SASL EXTERNAL, no need for password storage at all (and this ties in with e2e because clients need to generate certs/keys for that anyway) .... I'll try to write up something about this in the near future
[14:36:35] <MattJ> That does sound nice :)
[14:36:53] <stpeter> it's not clear to me if we'd need a TLS extension for that
[14:37:07] <MattJ> until... "stpeter, could you please send me my certificate? I lost it"
[14:37:13] <stpeter> haha
[14:37:14] <stpeter> yeah
[14:37:46] <stpeter> key management is an issue on the user side
[14:38:26] <stpeter> unfortunately, there are lots of lusers in the world :)
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[14:45:12] <Kev> stpeter: well, some servers do cert-auth already.
[14:45:30] <stpeter> Kev: sure
[14:45:34] <stpeter> but not for registration
[14:45:44] <Kev> Right.
[14:45:50] <stpeter> naturally we could do password auth the first time and then register the cert
[14:45:51] <Kev> I was just suggesting it wasn't a leap of technology.
[14:45:58] <stpeter> agreed
[14:46:19] <stpeter> it would be one small step for XMPP-kind :)
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[14:57:11] <pavlix> stpeter, MattJ, Kev.... OpenSSH may be sometimes a good inspiration in this respect
[14:57:33] <MattJ> Yeah
[14:57:38] <pavlix> even though the needs are different... they managed to do something that others could not
[14:58:00] <stpeter> heehee, I thought of a good algorithm for generating the 'ver' values in XEP-0237 :)
[14:58:15] <MattJ> Oh no :)
[15:02:44] <stpeter> I'll dare anyone to guess it :)
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[15:14:25] <stpeter> done
[15:15:19] stpeter moves on to Volume 5 of The Quintessential Billie Holiday and back to SIFT
[15:17:19] <stpeter> oops, I keep forgetting that editor@xmpp.org is moderated now on the standards@xmpp.org list :)
[15:20:11] <stpeter> MattJ: where did you find jdev@jabber.org as a groupchat address?
[15:20:49] <MattJ> stpeter, somewhere in the ML archives
[15:20:56] <MattJ> I'm sure I could track it down
[15:21:05] <stpeter> hmm
[15:21:11] <stpeter> I don't remember that
[15:21:18] <stpeter> perhaps it was from before I joined the project :)
[15:21:34] <stpeter> though as I recall we didn't have groupchat until late 2000
[15:21:39] <stpeter> before that we used IRC
[15:22:25] <stpeter> I had a chat with a Skype guy some years ago and he said just as we used IRC to develop Jabber, they used Jabber to develop Skype ;-)
[15:22:33] <MattJ> lol
[15:23:56] <MattJ> Google doesn't seem to have done too well at indexing the jdev ML
[15:24:21] <Tobias> what about jabber.markmail.com?
[15:24:45] <MattJ> EWRONGDOMAIN :)
[15:24:57] <waqas> I was just looking at markmail. Not finding anything relevent.
[15:25:03] <Tobias> .org
[15:25:05] <Tobias> dammit ;)
[15:25:24] <stpeter> maybe there were some discussions about it while we were developing the original groupchat 1.0 protocol
[15:26:02] <remko> waqas: with a little lag: I too want to buy an eBook reader. The processing speed (i.e. reading in/processing a PDF with some images) of the things is still a bit of a turnoff. But the eInk is so damn gorgeous
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[15:27:17] <Kev> When they're less than a couple of hundred quid, I'll be very tempted.
[15:27:34] <Kev> Publishers don't do much to make pdfs much more attractive than dead trees, though
[15:27:43] <remko> O'Reilly does
[15:27:47] <remko> and so does PragProgcom
[15:27:55] <Kev> only about 1/3 off, isn't it?
[15:28:03] <remko> digital media my friend
[15:28:08] <remko> it'll never get cheaper
[15:28:31] <remko> oh, attractive in price
[15:28:38] <remko> yeah, that'll always stay.
[15:29:02] <remko> i thought you meant thatthey made the PDFs less attractive aesthetically than dead trees (which is also a sad fact)
[15:29:17] <remko> (except for O'R and PragProg)
[15:29:36] stpeter maps out some protocol on his whiteboard
[15:29:36] <Kev> at least O'R and PP aren't too stupid on the DRM front
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[17:20:06] <donaldpit> Hi
[17:21:30] <donaldpit> Am new here
[17:21:40] <stpeter> hi
[17:21:48] <donaldpit> I use d nokia n800
[17:21:51] <stpeter> ok
[17:21:55] <donaldpit> Do i
[17:22:01] <donaldpit> Do u kno
[17:22:09] <donaldpit> How
[17:22:25] <donaldpit> I could make utube work better
[17:23:05] <stpeter> no, I don't, because I don't have an n800
[17:23:28] <donaldpit> Ow ok,well how is ur day
[17:23:53] <stpeter> busy!
[17:23:56] <stpeter> always busy
[17:27:25] <stpeter> MattJ: http://xmpp.org/extensions/inbox/sift.html
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[17:33:36] <stpeter> ok, time to get the train, I'll be back on later via email and microblogging and who knows what else... ;-)
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[18:25:47] <mrking59> Hello everyone
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