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Thursday, 8 January 2009< ^ >
MattJ has set the subject to: Jabber Development (in English) | Happy 10th Birthday Jabber! http://ur1.ca/0n8y | http://www.xmpp.org/ | Logs: http://logs.jabber.org/jdev@conference.jabber.org/
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[08:39:13] <hrnbrn> Hello all
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[12:59:48] <Merwok> Hello, world.
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[13:41:08] <Merwok> I wonder whether a client can know whether the other side accepts HTML. Any XHTML-IM / client caps expert?
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[13:50:40] <js> Merwok: yup, it's in caps
[13:50:54] <js> gajim for example checks for this before allowing the user to compose XHTML
[13:51:06] <Merwok> :o
[13:51:33] <Merwok> I compose XHTML via reStructuredText. Gajim never stopped me.
[13:52:46] <js> yes, that's gajim 0.12
[13:52:49] <js> in svn, we have an XHTML editor
[13:52:56] <js> which is disabled when the other side doesn't accept XHTML
[13:53:18] <Merwok> Nice.
[13:53:46] <Merwok> When plugins are there, the reST plugin could display an icon to inform about that.
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[13:57:04] <js> rest is will die soon
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[13:57:26] <js> it has already been removed from SVN, IIRC
[13:57:35] <js> ah, nope, it's still there
[13:57:36] <js> but it's going to go away
[13:58:08] <Merwok> :0
[13:58:28] <js> there's really no reason for it as we have an xhtml editor now
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[14:00:21] <Merwok> But wait, I use the gajim-svn package for Debian. I use compact style, so I didn’t notice the new icon.
[14:00:37] <js> you can use shortcuts, unless roidelaplui changed that again
[14:00:40] <Merwok> So there is only font styling for now?
[14:00:48] <js> yup
[14:00:50] <Merwok> I do a lot more with reST.
[14:00:56] <js> roidelaplui has said for years the rest will come
[14:00:59] <Merwok> Actually, I never user colors.
[14:01:00] <js> but he never did anything after importint it
[14:01:09] <js> in fact, he imported a version that can do less than the attached patch
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[14:45:32] <Merwok> Sad that HTML is misunderstood as a styling language.
[14:45:59] <johnny> that's because it let you do stufff without css
[14:46:05] <johnny> easy to gain that misunderstanding..
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[14:46:36] <Merwok> That was HTML 3.2. Perhaps we could now use true HTML?
[14:47:19] <johnny> kinda hard, since xhtml is the only true styleless html
[14:47:30] <johnny> and internet explorer can't do nothin with it
[14:47:30] <Merwok> HTML 4.01 is.
[14:47:44] <johnny> html 4.01 won't yell at you for many styling elements
[14:47:53] <Merwok> Is Jabber with HTML designed for IE ? :)
[14:48:07] <johnny> no.. just saying..
[14:48:18] <johnny> that people move their knowledge from the web to elsewhere
[14:48:18] <Merwok> It’s self-discipline then. Just don’t use these elements.
[14:48:21] <johnny> LOL
[14:48:25] <johnny> you're expecting that..
[14:48:30] <Merwok> I do that.
[14:48:42] <johnny> sure. you
[14:48:44] <johnny> and me too
[14:49:06] <johnny> but on the internet.. people still use font tags..
[14:49:13] <Merwok> People move their knowledge you say, that’s damageable if they write specs.
[14:49:23] <johnny> sure
[14:49:32] <johnny> that's why specs are supposed to be reviewed
[14:50:08] <Merwok> Yep, open protocols are open :)
[14:50:38] stpeter scrolls up for context
[14:50:41] <Merwok> (That would be a funny lolcat picture, only with a bulb instead of a cat. :)
[14:50:51] <pihhan> you cannot make people with bad behaviours make good technical work because of standard or protocol, you have to teach them why not to do that, and it costs money without obvious benefit
[14:51:03] <johnny> pihhan hits the nail on the head
[14:51:12] <johnny> stpeter, don't bother
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[14:51:47] <stpeter> johnny: ok :)
[14:51:54] <Merwok> I’m a strong believer in education.
[14:52:21] <johnny> Merwok, you sure have your work cut out for you
[14:52:33] <Merwok> stpeter, it was just a Gajim-related discussion, and then me rating on XHTML-IM.
[14:52:38] <pihhan> you are not manager paid from revenues percentages, are you?
[14:52:40] <stpeter> Merwok: heh, ok
[14:52:43] <johnny> stpeter, i'll summarize.. many people don't follow html standards, and then take their html misunderstandings into other development
[14:52:58] <stpeter> johnny: well that's true, for sure
[14:53:04] <Merwok> johnny, I’m not a native speaker, could you give a synonym for “cut out”?
[14:53:05] <johnny> thus the don't obther :)
[14:53:21] <Merwok> Oops, s/rating/ranting/
[14:53:31] <johnny> you sure have a lot of work ahead of you
[14:53:33] <stpeter> Merwok: yes I figured that out :)
[14:53:46] <johnny> even in 2009 :(
[14:54:17] <Merwok> I’m not a manager.
[14:55:01] <Merwok> All right, I got the information I wanted. Thanks.
[14:55:17] <johnny> Merwok, that's the point.. you're not a manager .. you have no money at stake for "wasting time" on standards
[14:56:06] <johnny> obviously we all agree that it is important.. but we're the geeks :)
[14:56:09] <Merwok> Yep, but managers don’t write XEPs nor code.
[14:56:21] <Kev> Uhm
[14:56:26] <johnny> sure.. but they don't force their team to do the right things.. or pay them to learn the right thing :)
[14:56:28] <Kev> nevermind.
[14:56:32] <johnny> lol
[14:56:52] <Kev> I'll leave you to your preconceptions, however wrong they may be.
[14:57:05] <johnny> to who?
[14:57:10] <Merwok> Perhaps my understanding of “manager” is too narrow.
[14:57:19] <Kev> johnny: to Merwok
[14:57:21] <johnny> just anybody who pays you to do things :)
[14:57:25] <johnny> that's all was meant
[14:57:45] <johnny> many programmers got into programming for the money around 2000.. they never cared about the future.. or doing it right
[14:57:45] <Merwok> Not “project manager”, i.e. a programmer?
[14:58:03] <johnny> paid their kid brothers to make them web pages ..
[14:58:04] <johnny> etc
[14:58:28] <johnny> it is why php got a bad rep.. too easy to do the wrong thing (or one big reason anyways)
[14:58:34] <johnny> and not caring about doing it right
[14:58:39] <Merwok> Kevin, I’m open for enlightenment.
[14:58:39] <Kev> Well, that and that it's a horrid language.
[14:58:46] <johnny> Kev, it's not that bad :)
[14:59:24] <johnny> it's like mozilla seamonkey being faster than firefox.. you don't know why php is faster due to how it is a big hodgepodge of things.. yet it is :)
[14:59:29] <Kev> "<Merwok> Yep, but managers don’t write XEPs nor code."
[14:59:33] <Kev> Was quite far off the mark.
[15:00:19] <Kev> I know someone who's an R&D Manager, who's written XEPs, code, and even co-authored a book on XMPP ;)
[15:00:30] <johnny> yah.. somebody
[15:00:33] <johnny> lol
[15:00:33] <stpeter> heh
[15:00:44] <johnny> well stpeter wasn't the coder ;)
[15:00:47] <Merwok> Nice to see this kind of managers exists :)
[15:00:47] <johnny> hehe
[15:00:49] johnny lols
[15:01:08] <johnny> we love him anyways tho
[15:01:43] <stpeter> yes I'm a horrible coder
[15:01:49] <Merwok> <johnny> [...] you're not a manager .. you have no money at stake for "wasting time" on standards > Managers who are also hackers care, I imagine.
[15:02:11] <johnny> depends on the importance of the here and now..vs the future
[15:02:20] <johnny> tradeoffs abound
[15:02:32] <Merwok> Agreed.
[15:02:51] <Kev> In my last position, my manager okayed funding for me to go to FOSDEM and the XMPP Summit 2007 and 2008 even though it wasn't exceptionally related to my work.
[15:02:54] <johnny> that is why i need a manager.. too much of a perfectionist.. need somebody to kick me to the ground from the sky sometimes :)
[15:03:20] <johnny> sometimes things just need to work ..
[15:03:43] <johnny> perhaps i'll be ok afterall..
[15:03:50] <Merwok> But tradeoffs can lead you to a bad situation where you can’t go back.
[15:03:55] <johnny> sure..
[15:04:12] <johnny> sometimes that oneoff hack becomes the basis for something much bigger and you do run into problems
[15:04:23] <johnny> but more times than not.. it doesn't..
[15:04:33] <johnny> cfr phpmyadmin :)
[15:04:53] <johnny> for one that does..
[15:04:55] <Merwok> I didn’t look at that for years. Last time it was awful.
[15:05:06] <Merwok> Ah :)
[15:05:23] <johnny> yet.. it is good enough that many people do not bother to write a replacement
[15:05:34] <johnny> altho i use sqlbuddy a bit..
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[15:05:49] <johnny> but it is far from having the same features..
[15:06:54] <johnny> ok.. back to work :(
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[15:17:15] <stpeter> yet another XMPP daemon? http://www.indafon.com/tech/
[15:19:06] <Merwok> See you.
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[15:19:25] <Tobias> stpeter: little to no information there? :)
[15:20:03] <Tobias> Jabber based and compatible to MSN? do they implement the MSN protocol or just have gateways
[15:21:46] <stpeter> I don't know, someone there told me they wrote their own server
[15:22:59] johnny doesn't understand why anybody would do that
[15:23:17] <Tobias> doesn't make much sense to me either :D
[15:23:19] <johnny> i guess i'd rather fix what exists than start over
[15:23:36] <johnny> of course.. in a new language.. that might be understandable..
[15:23:45] <johnny> we don't have a C# server yet..
[15:24:01] <johnny> and we didn't have a lua server..
[15:24:08] <johnny> now we just need a vala server :)
[15:24:16] <Tobias> johnny: not an open source one...but there are closed source c# servers
[15:24:30] <johnny> might as well not even exist
[15:24:32] <johnny> for me :)
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[15:25:49] <Tobias> but you know of Soapbox
[15:26:59] <johnny> i do?
[15:27:37] <Tobias> it's a server in c#
[15:27:53] <johnny> hmm.. good to know
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[15:40:46] <js> does the language even matter if it's closed source anyway?
[15:44:14] <Tobias> why not...you don't judge based on benchmarks :D only on what language some tool is written in ;)
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[16:03:47] <dum8d0g> hi
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[16:05:41] <dum8d0g> I'm trying get proxy65 running and it doesn't work as I expected, I followed the README precisely, logfile is absolutly happy, I even can connect to newly created port, but I cannot get any xml messages from it.. :-(
[16:06:09] <dum8d0g> Is somebody using proxy65 here?
[16:07:10] <stpeter> hmm
[16:07:23] <stpeter> I haven't tried to get it running in quite some time, but I need to do so soon
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[16:07:53] <dum8d0g> stpeter, it's pretty easy to get it running
[16:08:13] <dum8d0g> but I did something wrong :-(
[16:08:52] <stpeter> what is your xmpp daemon?
[16:08:55] <dum8d0g> stpeter, It's like download & unpack & python setup.py install & twisd proxy65 params
[16:09:03] <stpeter> right
[16:09:03] <dum8d0g> stpeter, jabberd2
[16:09:06] <stpeter> ok
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[16:09:16] <stpeter> I am not very familiar with j2
[16:09:24] <stpeter> I've mostly used jabberd 1.x and ejabberd
[16:09:43] <dum8d0g> stpeter, It should be almost the same
[16:10:51] <johnny> no.. not really.. totally different daemon..
[16:10:55] <johnny> rewrite and all
[16:11:00] <johnny> totally different configuration
[16:11:06] <stpeter> johnny: yes
[16:11:15] <dum8d0g> johnny, yes, but from view of proxy65 is just small change
[16:11:20] <stpeter> brb
[16:11:41] <johnny> you'll prolly have to turn on debug logging
[16:11:56] <dum8d0g> stpeter, I'm using command: sudo twistd proxy65 --jid=proxy65.mydomain.org --secret=mysecret --rhost=127.0.0.1 --rport=5347 --proxyips=0.0.0.0
[16:12:34] <dum8d0g> stpeter, this bind port 7777 (default) and I can telnet to it from another computer
[16:12:55] <dum8d0g> stpeter, but I don't get any xml messages (as I get when I connect directly to 5222 port)
[16:19:11] <dum8d0g> Is there chance, that when I run twistd proxy65 under root and jabberd2 is running under user jabberd it can have some permission problems?
[16:19:29] <stpeter> possible
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[16:24:34] <dum8d0g> no
[16:25:09] <pihhan> you should not run it under root, it is not needed propably. i think there will be permission problem only for configuration file with needed data and login failures
[16:25:17] <pihhan> check router.log of jabberd2
[16:25:39] <dum8d0g> pihhan, router.log.. hmm that's good idead
[16:26:09] <dum8d0g> btw I ran proxy65 under user 'jabber' and it doesn't work in the same way as under 'root'
[16:27:16] <pihhan> maybe you have wrong password for router authentication, or it cannot read config
[16:28:43] <dum8d0g> proxy65 doesn't have config (in the latest version which I am using) and I think that proxy65 doesn't need to read jabberd2 configuration files.. If it does, it will be working under root, which does not
[16:29:10] <dum8d0g> password should be right.. I am pretty sure about the password
[16:29:18] <dum8d0g> router.log seem really happy
[16:30:03] <pihhan> i think every component connecting to daemon needs some password
[16:30:15] <dum8d0g> It's like
Jan 8 22:53:43 xx jabberd/router[20089]: [proxy65.xx.org] online (bound to 127.0.0.1, port 43389)
Jan 8 22:56:18 xx jabberd/router[20089]: [127.0.0.1, port=43389] disconnect
Jan 8 22:56:18 xx jabberd/router[20089]: [proxy65.xx.org] offline
[16:30:18] <pihhan> are you sure it does not need some config?
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[16:30:57] <dum8d0g> pihhan, proxy65 is logging and it is not complaining about anything.. just like jabberd/router
[16:31:24] <dum8d0g> pihhan, in README of proxy65 is written, that proxy65 does't need configuration
[16:31:41] <dum8d0g> pihhan, there are few examples which I am using
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[16:32:35] <pihhan> i never worked with proxy65, don't know, but it is strange
[16:34:56] <pihhan> are you sure you supply correct --secret at startup?
[16:35:03] <dum8d0g> Interesting is this: when I ran proxy65, process is running, port is opened, every log is saying "yes, it's ok", I can from that point connect via telnet to port 7777 on that machine, but after few moments I get disconnected (I am sending some messages so I have to get errors, but I don't)
[16:35:22] <dum8d0g> pihhan, I checked that dozen times
[16:35:43] <pihhan> it will need shared secret specified in router.conf/<local>/<secret>
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[16:37:53] <dum8d0g> I checked that now with a diff command
[16:37:58] <dum8d0g> it is really the same
[16:38:05] <dum8d0g> there is no doubt about that
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[17:51:48] <ZanzibaR> *HI*
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[21:08:36] <MattJ> !xep 124
[21:08:37] <xepbot> XEP-0124: Bidirectional-streams Over Synchronous HTTP (BOSH) is Standards Track (Draft, 2008-10-29) See: http://www.xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0124.html
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