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Monday, March 31, 2008< ^ >
TobiasFar has set the subject to: Jabber DEVELOPMENT (in English) | http://www.xmpp.org | http://www.jabber.org | Logs: http://logs.jabber.org/jdev@conference.jabber.org/
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[02:25:48] <kamanashisroy> hi ..
[02:27:41] <kamanashisroy> where should I upload a proposal of gsoc for review from the pioneers of XMPP ???
[02:27:52] <kamanashisroy> I mean for review ..
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[03:55:49] <alinux> hi all I know I can make outbond calls to jingle google talk using astersik..however I do have a jingle client "other than google talk"..can I register it on the asterisk server..and make PSTN calls through the Asterisk server ?
[03:56:23] <alinux> I.e. in other words..can my jingle client that is connected to an ejabberd server possibly forward audio calls to an asterisk box that itself forwards the calls to a pstn machine ?
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[03:57:04] <Kev> alinux: that is my understanding, yes
[03:57:25] <Kev> although I don't know if asterisk supports real Jingle, or just the Google voip protocol
[03:57:31] <Kev> what client are you using?
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[03:59:09] <alinux> Kev: ..you said thath is your understanding
[03:59:16] <alinux> you meatn my first or second comment >
[03:59:40] <Kev> weren't they the same?
[04:00:06] <Kev> it's my understanding that asterisk can gateway between pstn and jingle, but I don't know for sure
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[04:01:06] <alinux> Kev...allrighht
[04:01:12] <alinux> kev I am confused about one thing
[04:01:23] <Kev> only one? better than me :)
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[04:14:23] <fippo> mh... does anyone have a copy of the xmpp repository? svn.xmpp.org seems to be still unavailable
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[04:16:33] <alinux> Kev: if my client is connected to lets say ejabberd how are pstn calls going to be forwarded to Asterisk ?
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[04:20:15] <TobiasFar> fippo: i have one but just the extensions dir
[04:20:16] <TobiasFar> :)
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[04:27:27] <Kev> alinux: perhaps the asterisk guys would be better to ask, instead of me guessing )
[04:27:27] <Kev> :)
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[04:35:04] <fippo> tobiasfar: if it contains everything necessary to process the .xml to .html that would be enough
[04:41:03] <TobiasFar> i'll upload it
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[04:48:28] <TobiasFar> fippo: http://ayena.de/files/extensions.zip
[04:48:54] <TobiasFar> it's not up to date but just about 3 weeks old or so
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[05:53:24] <fippo> tobiasfar: perfect. thanks
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[05:54:43] <probir> is it the right place for gsoc project?
[05:54:56] <probir> discussion
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[05:58:44] <probir> fippo: is it the right place for gsoc project discussion?
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[05:59:57] <probir> Kev: where can i disscuss about gsoc project?
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[06:27:41] <gislan> quick GSoC question if I may: I can't find any information on jabberd2 on this year's gsoc ideas page. Is there any point in submitting jabberd2-related application ?
[06:33:41] <probir> i want to submit a project on application sharing framework for mobile
[06:35:18] <probir> it will transfer events from client to server
[06:36:22] <probir> need some review
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[06:40:49] <probir> TobiasFar: sir,can u give some review
[06:41:14] <TobiasFar> probir: yeah
[06:41:50] <probir> TobiasFar: i was thinking about a project for gsoc
[06:43:11] <probir> TobiasFar: it will transfer events such as keystorkes or screen change
[06:43:28] <TobiasFar> aha
[06:43:54] <probir> TobiasFar: it will base on xmpp and work on mobile devices
[06:45:10] <probir> TobiasFar: so what do you think about it?
[06:47:10] <probir> TobiasFar: is there any application already available something like it?
[06:47:28] <TobiasFar> sounds interesting
[06:47:40] <TobiasFar> how do you intend to transfer key and screen data?
[06:49:23] <probir> i think server responds with xforms
[06:50:24] <TobiasFar> hmm....
[06:50:37] <TobiasFar> full screen resolution screen transfer?
[06:50:57] <TobiasFar> xfomrs don't provide such features...just simple form types
[06:51:19] <probir> svg??
[06:51:56] <TobiasFar> hmm...
[06:53:02] <TobiasFar> gislan: sure
[06:53:20] <TobiasFar> gislan: just send in a decent application
[06:53:24] <gislan> oh...great :)
[06:53:26] <gislan> it's not that decent :)
[06:53:26] <TobiasFar> gislan: what do you want to code on=
[06:53:28] <TobiasFar> ?
[06:53:37] <gislan> XEP-0136 (server-side history)
[06:54:12] <TobiasFar> cool
[06:54:18] <probir> TobiasFar: This display will be implemented as rendered svg.
[06:54:49] <TobiasFar> probir: but it would include tracing pixel screen data to svg, right?
[06:55:14] <gislan> I really need it, I'm working on too many computers nowdays. I was even thinking about mounting my .psi via sshfs on all machines ;)
[06:56:03] <TobiasFar> smoku: what do you think about it?
[06:57:35] <smoku> TobiasFar: about what?
[06:58:08] <TobiasFar> jabber2 soc project
[06:58:11] <TobiasFar> ?
[06:58:15] <probir> TobiasFar: client will give a component-display. Some of the components can
be traversable and selectable.components are analogus to the svg elements or element-groups. User may use the arrow keys of the mobile phone to traverse those elemnts
[07:00:15] <smoku> TobiasFar: is there one?
[07:00:25] <gislan> crap, got to go to some stupid university class, will talk to you later guys
[07:00:35] <gislan> smoku: I'm going to submit one today
[07:00:48] <gislan> like I said, will talk about this later, bye
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[07:08:21] <smoku> native pub-sub component would be nice
[07:08:57] <smoku> and fixing cert-domain assignments
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[07:15:17] <smoku> and fixing auth EXTERNAL
[07:15:43] <smoku> and... ;-)
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[07:42:01] <DeSnajpa_VI> and pep ;]
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[07:45:59] <smoku> DeSnajpa_VI: i mentioned pub-sub :)
[07:46:16] <sef> hi, is there a client with User Activity support? Part of XEP with 'specific activity' is confusing for me ..
[07:46:39] <smoku> sef: Psi
[07:46:46] <DeSnajpa_VI> smoku, but pubsub is separate component, and pep is inside sm ;p
[07:46:54] <DeSnajpa_VI> imo there's difference
[07:46:55] <sef> smoku: which version?
[07:47:06] <smoku> DeSnajpa_VI: depends on implementation
[07:47:14] <smoku> sef: 0.12
[07:47:17] <DeSnajpa_VI> sef, and tkabber (>=0.9.8)
[07:47:18] <sef> ah
[07:47:38] <sef> hmm I've never seen it in tkabber ..
[07:48:08] <DeSnajpa_VI> inside `Show info` dialog
[07:48:26] <DeSnajpa_VI> or /last in chat
[07:48:53] <DeSnajpa_VI> w8 w8, you say user activity
[07:49:00] <sef> ..
[07:49:14] <DeSnajpa_VI> tkabber-svn (Services>Personal eventing>User activity)
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[07:50:06] <sef> ah .. SVN version
[07:50:10] <sef> damnit ;)
[07:50:18] <DeSnajpa_VI> yeah
[07:50:30] <christian> sef, Gajim SVN implements user activity, too
[07:50:55] <smoku> we're livin' on the edge...
[07:51:08] <sef> well Jabbim SVN can read it too
[07:51:20] <sef> I'm working on sending part now ;)
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[07:55:01] <sef> hmm, where can I set it in gajim?
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[07:58:38] <sef> ah I see ..
[07:58:48] <sef> it looks terrible ;)
[08:01:37] <christian> yes... but it should work ;)
[08:01:44] <sef> well
[08:02:02] <sef> I want a user friendly feature
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[08:46:15] <Dallas[w]> Mornin' folks.
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[09:50:16] <scorpion84> hello for every body!!!
[09:50:34] <scorpion84> someone know sth in polish here in this room!!!
[09:50:48] <scorpion84> now body can help me????
[09:51:02] <MattJ> !pl
[09:51:03] <xepbot> Odwiedź pokój randki@chat.papla.pl, jeśli chcesz pogadać po polsku, lub pomoc@chat.papla.pl, jeśli szukasz pomocy na temat Jabbera.
[09:51:06] <MattJ> Hmm :)
[09:51:42] <scorpion84> xepbot it is for me=????
[09:52:15] <MattJ> scorpion84, you asked for Polish?
[09:52:16] <MattJ> So yes
[09:52:20] <MattJ> in that case
[09:52:56] <scorpion84> no i´m cuban but i need someone that help me with few words bcoz today i need meet with some one in my airport and i need speak well
[09:53:11] <scorpion84> example
[09:53:31] <MattJ> Well as it says in the topic, this is an English room
[09:54:03] <scorpion84> i know , just ask if someone can help me, I see not
[09:54:19] <scorpion84> have a nice evening for eveybody here
[09:54:28] <smoku> scorpion84: and you really hope you will speak well after few words exchange on muc? :)
[09:55:09] <scorpion84> i just wanna ask for few words, bcoz i need that someone from polish undertand me what i need tell her, bcoz she dont understand well English
[09:55:25] <scorpion84> thats why i wanna that someone help me in few words
[09:55:25] <scorpion84> thats all!!
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[09:56:27] <smoku> and how would you verify that you got correct sentences? :D
[09:56:51] <smoku> you may bug me on priv - maybe I could help you
[09:58:26] <scorpion84> man, listen if someone write me sth well, i hope that he dont shitt me, bcoz i really need a favor, so i´ll believe in that help
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[10:15:30] <Kev> GSoC deadline is now next Monday
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[10:17:41] <gislan> hmm, I wonder why? are there so few applications this year?
[10:18:01] <Kev> people were complaining
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[10:19:13] <Kev> although I'm not quite sure why, since all associations seem to have plenty of applicants
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[10:20:01] <smoku> complaining about what?
[10:20:11] <gislan> I've heard that X.org had only one proposal, but that was 2 days ago I think
[10:20:26] <Kev> smoku: there not being enough time for their students to apply
[10:22:44] <gislan> smoku: back to our GSoC-jabberd2 discussion, I'm thinking about writing app on XEP-0136 support
[10:23:03] <smoku> !pex 136
[10:23:12] <MattJ> !xep 136
[10:23:12] <gislan> that would be my 2nd application for XSF, but I hope it's ok
[10:23:12] <Kev> !xep 136
[10:23:15] <xepbot> XEP-0136: Message Archiving is Standards Track (Experimental, 2008-03-03) See: http://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0136.html
[10:23:15] <xepbot> XEP-0136: Message Archiving is Standards Track (Experimental, 2008-03-03) See: http://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0136.html
[10:23:17] <MattJ> .
[10:25:23] <smoku> gislan: since jabberd2 does not have xep-0136 support, a part of the task would require writting it.
[10:26:19] <gislan> that's the idea, implementing XEP-0136 support for jabberd2 + a complete set of tests for that
[10:27:17] <smoku> cool idea
[10:27:39] <smoku> that would require redesign of the offline storage backend
[10:28:11] <Kev> gislan: what was your other app?
[10:28:29] <smoku> and I was thinking about it already in context of XEP-0013
[10:28:52] <gislan> Kev: metacontacts for Psi of course, you read it ;)
[10:29:02] <gislan> !xep 13
[10:29:03] <xepbot> XEP-0013: Flexible Offline Message Retrieval is Standards Track (Draft, 2005-07-14) See: http://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0013.html
[10:29:21] <Kev> gislan: right, but I can't remember everyone's nicks/names
[10:29:32] <Kev> there've been quite a few apps for the xsf already, my brain melts
[10:30:19] <Kev> which would be your prefered project?
[10:30:26] <smoku> gislan: of course you may implement archive separate from offline storage, but I think joining it enables many cool use cases
[10:31:28] <gislan> Kev: that's a hard question. I'm very interested in both
[10:31:47] <Kev> you know where my preference would go, I suspect ;)
[10:32:58] <gislan> well, metacontacts was first thing that came to my mind so I think I'd rather like to work on it, but then again I'm getting more and more annoyed by having history split over few machines every day
[10:33:40] <gislan> Kev: are there any plans on XEP-0136 support for Psi ?
[10:33:51] <Kev> sure, some day
[10:35:02] <smoku> gislan: there is a standalone XEP-0136 component available, if that may help
[10:35:23] <gislan> smoku: oh...any url for that?
[10:35:31] <smoku> sure... w8
[10:36:44] <smoku> http://zeank.in-berlin.de/datasink/
[10:38:12] <gislan> oh good god...perl? ;)
[10:39:13] gislan is not a huge perl lover
[10:39:17] <smoku> WFM ;P
[10:41:26] <gislan> thanks, I'm gonna give it a try
[10:44:48] <smoku> my pleasure :)
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[11:08:32] <Itay Neeman> Hi
[11:09:37] <stpeter> hi
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[11:10:27] <Itay Neeman> Does the XSF have a good amount of SoC applicants this year?
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[11:11:17] <stpeter> Itay Neeman: not sure, I'll check the interface
[11:11:47] <stpeter> last time I looked, we didn't have a lot
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[11:12:12] <stpeter> it seems that all the projects have fewer applications this year
[11:12:25] <Itay Neeman> Is it just the time constraints, or less uptake in general?
[11:12:29] <stpeter> maybe because $4500 isn't very much money anymore outside the USA ;-)
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[11:12:45] <Itay Neeman> True, but for many people, it is better than nothing :)
[11:12:54] stpeter nods
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[11:13:07] <stpeter> I don't know why
[11:13:19] <stpeter> more communities are participating this year
[11:13:22] <stpeter> etc.
[11:13:32] <stpeter> I'm sure the Googlers will investigate
[11:14:07] <Itay Neeman> Probably.
[11:14:27] <Itay Neeman> I like the projects that are proposed on the wiki this year, all very interesting
[11:14:34] <stpeter> in past years we had a *lot* of applications
[11:14:34] <stpeter> it was very difficult to read them all
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[11:14:49] <stpeter> this year perhaps it will be easier to choose :)
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[11:16:15] <Itay Neeman> An administrative question: if I have a question as to why part of the pubsub XEP is the way it is, where is the best place to ask?
[11:16:33] <stpeter> feel free to ask here
[11:16:47] <Itay Neeman> I was wondering why collection nodes are not allowed to have items
[11:17:01] <Itay Neeman> It seems to severely limit the scope of hierarchical node structures
[11:18:02] <stpeter> hmm
[11:18:15] <TobiasFar> stpeter: XEP numbers are given usually in chronological order right?
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[11:18:33] <stpeter> TobiasFar: yes
[11:18:42] <stpeter> TobiasFar: are you trying to guess the next spec? ;-)
[11:19:06] <TobiasFar> stpeter: i wonder why User Tune and User * have lower numbers than PEP XEP :)
[11:19:33] <TobiasFar> i mean there were no windows before IBM PCs came on market :)
[11:20:11] <DeSnajpa_VI> tommorow there will be a new xep
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[11:20:40] <stpeter> TobiasFar: they were originally written for pubsub
[11:20:46] <TobiasFar> ahh
[11:20:48] <stpeter> DeSnajpa_VI: maybe:-)
[11:21:00] <TobiasFar> i thought something like that
[11:21:02] <TobiasFar> :)
[11:21:04] <DeSnajpa_VI> maybe? not must? ;p
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[11:21:31] <stpeter> Itay Neeman: well, we probably wanted to keep things simple -- either a node is a collection node or an items node, but not both
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[11:22:32] <stpeter> DeSnajpa_VI: in America we have a saying -- the only things that are certain are death and taxes :)
[11:22:49] <DeSnajpa_VI> and a xep on 1st April!
[11:23:23] <Itay Neeman> stpeter: I assumed that that was the case. Makes some things more difficult.
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[11:25:05] <stpeter> Itay Neeman: probably, yes -- do you have anything in mind? what use cases?
[11:26:16] <Itay Neeman> stpeter: I have been thinking about blogs and pubsub. I have followed the discussions on the jdev mailing list, but I dont think any clear consensus has arisen. I think you could do some very interesting things using pubsub, such as avoiding the context switch that RSS requires between reading an entry and commenting on it.
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[11:28:30] <Itay Neeman> So one way you could have separate feeds for entries and comments is have two different nodes for them, but then you have to associate the comments node with the entries node, which is tedious. If you could have a node per entry, which has the published entry, and as a child-leaf node it has the comments node for that entry, that would work better.
[11:28:33] <Itay Neeman> Or something along those lines.
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[11:30:14] <stpeter> hmm it seems that the GSoC deadline has been extended by one week
[11:34:17] <stpeter> Itay Neeman: pondering
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[11:35:58] <stpeter> so I'd have a blognode as a collection, each entry would be a child node of that collection, and each entry node would have a further child for the comments -- correct?
[11:36:19] <Itay Neeman> Yes, that's about it
[11:36:28] <Itay Neeman> Though I am sure there are other (probably better) ways of doing it.
[11:36:38] <stpeter> I'm not sure
[11:36:43] <stpeter> :)
[11:36:46] <Itay Neeman> The easiest is having a blog collection node, with another node per entry, which also has comments on it
[11:36:56] <Itay Neeman> But this way, you can't sort out the comments from the entry
[11:37:17] <stpeter> hmm
[11:37:17] <Itay Neeman> Yet I am not sure this is *bad* thing. It is just a paradigm shift from subscribing to entries to subscribing to conversations.
[11:37:54] <stpeter> it seems that most blogging software has separate feeds for entries and comments
[11:38:33] <Itay Neeman> Yes. Doesn't mean it is the best solution, though. There are a lot of efforts to try and centralize the discourse around blog posts.
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[11:39:05] <stpeter> Itay Neeman: I don't think we have enough knowledge in our little community to make these decisions
[11:39:52] <stpeter> note: we don't have a "user blogging" spec
[11:39:58] <Itay Neeman> I agree. It is something that is separate from XMPP in general. I just think that XMPP has a good, solid base to allow for such a transformation should one want it.
[11:40:07] <stpeter> we may need a wrapper around Atom
[11:41:03] <Itay Neeman> Why?
[11:41:09] <stpeter> so for instance the post is <blog><post><atom/></post></blog> as one item and the comments (to the same node) are <blog><comment><atom/></comment></blog>
[11:41:25] <stpeter> well, because Atom can be anything
[11:41:40] <Itay Neeman> Sure. That would be fine, and would be up to the clients to decide what to do with it.
[11:41:52] <stpeter> do we want to structure the Atom at all, or just let people post Atom info and it could be anything?
[11:42:00] <stpeter> I'm not sure yet
[11:42:34] <Itay Neeman> I guess the question is how much formality do you want to introduce from the XMPP/XSF side.
[11:43:26] <stpeter> Itay Neeman: yes that is the question :)
[11:43:33] <Itay Neeman> :)
[11:43:45] <stpeter> and I don't think we have the answers yet
[11:43:57] <Itay Neeman> stpeter: I would say none. Though that would involve pseudo-standards.
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[11:44:27] <stpeter> so let's say that Atom is the new XML :)
[11:44:33] <stpeter> *everything* goes into Atom
[11:44:46] <stpeter> georss, blog posts, tunes, and so on
[11:45:03] <stpeter> if I subscribe to your Atom node, I get everything
[11:45:05] <stpeter> in one place
[11:45:13] <stpeter> and that seems like a problem
[11:45:17] <stpeter> nodes are cheap
[11:45:31] <stpeter> but in PEP we said one node per namespace
[11:45:40] <stpeter> so perhaps that's the restriction we need to get rid of
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[11:46:09] <Itay Neeman> I wonder about that too
[11:46:10] <stpeter> however, I don't see harm in having a little wrapper namespace that says "this node is for blog posts"
[11:46:11] <stpeter> etc.
[11:46:23] <Itay Neeman> Or rather, I have a slight issue with the current "filtering" method
[11:46:27] <Itay Neeman> which is based on node names
[11:46:31] <Itay Neeman> rather than content
[11:47:18] <Itay Neeman> If I subscribe to a node, and I say: "only tell me about blog entries", I want it to filter out things with <comment/> (or something similar)
[11:47:41] <stpeter> we had to choose something :)
[11:47:47] <stpeter> and at the time this seemed simpler
[11:47:51] <stpeter> and we like simple
[11:48:18] <stpeter> now we have a bunch of infrastructure and building blocks based on this assumption
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[11:50:16] <Itay Neeman> Yes, it is probably to late now. But it does mean that given the one node per namespace limitation, you either have separate nodes for each type of thing (which can be good), or you force the client to do the filtering.
[11:50:41] <Itay Neeman> The problem with each type of data having a different node is that it becomes difficult to maintain cross-node structure, as in the entries/comments example.
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[11:58:37] <stpeter> yes, and we sometimes might like some cross-node structure -- especially if we want to build a kind of distributed comments system, trackbacks, etc.
[11:58:51] <Itay Neeman> Exactly.
[11:58:56] <stpeter> (but note: this might be even more interesting across services)_
[11:59:38] <Itay Neeman> Could you give an example, just so I am sure we are on the same page?
[11:59:52] <stpeter> phone, bbiab
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[12:41:13] <Itay Neeman> Is there any notion of what SoC projects have been picked up so far? I'm just curious what people are interested in.
[12:41:30] <Kev> I don't think it'd be right to tell you about other students' proposals
[12:41:42] <Kev> but I'd say there's been a reasonable interest across the board
[12:42:11] <Itay Neeman> That's good. I'm not applying, I just like most of the projects on the ideas page, and it would be good to see some implemented.
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[12:45:55] <remko> Itay Neeman: in that case, track the xsf blog, and you'll see what projects got accepted ;-)
[12:46:25] <Itay Neeman> remko: I am :)
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[12:47:11] <stpeter> heh: http://timeanddate.com/counters/customcounter.html?month=4&day=7&year=2008&hour=0&min=0&sec=1&p0=0
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[13:11:23] <kinema> I've been thinking.... 0013 provides a POP3-like method for accessing offline messages but is there any standard way to send a non-IM/email-like message via XMPP?
[13:12:22] <TobiasFar> maybe using message type normal instead of chat?
[13:13:24] <kinema> That's pretty much what I figured. I wonder why such a message type hasn't been speced.
[13:14:33] <Kev> specced?
[13:14:33] <Kev> it has
[13:14:41] <Kev> it's a message of type normal rather than chat
[13:15:41] <kinema> Is it specced in one of the RFCs or in an XEP?
[13:15:50] <Kev> the RFCs define non-chat messages
[13:16:07] <kinema> I guess I should reread them.
[13:16:24] <deryni> http://www.xmpp.org/rfcs/rfc3921.html#stanzas 2.1.1
[13:16:51] <Kev> I head a rumour that Pidgin has PEP support now - is that true?
[13:17:40] <deryni> For some definition of support, yes. I'm unsure exactly what we support, it was a SoC project from last year.
[13:17:46] <Kev> ah, great
[13:18:14] <Kev> obviously I can't condone non-Psi clients, but that's good news :)
[13:18:26] <deryni> We received an application to fix it up (among other things) for this year.
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[13:19:12] <Kev> be interesting to hear how that goes :)
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[13:20:29] <Itay Neeman> Kev: have you ever considered allowing dynamic additions of caps, to allow for testing of new features without having to recompile Psi?
[13:21:08] <Kev> yes, it's likely we'll support that once we have plugins 'finished'
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[13:21:19] <Kev> until you can change features without compiling, it doesn't seem too important :)
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[13:21:59] <Itay Neeman> I would agree. That's great to hear though. It's a pain testing some things otherwise sometimes.
[13:23:25] <grom> hello
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[13:24:03] <Kev> Itay Neeman: I'm /hoping/ the plugins stuff will get, if not finished, then enabled in mainline before /too/ long
[13:24:05] <Grom> maybe you hear something about making social network for jabber?
[13:24:11] <Kev> I won't promise any more than that, though
[13:24:37] <Itay Neeman> That's fine. I don't really need anything urgently, and anything I do need I can always recompile if necessary, as it always turns out to be simple :)
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[13:51:29] <bknycguy1> Sleep
[13:52:28] <Kev> well, that's a new take on hypnosis
[13:53:21] <bknycguy1> Thats what i thought everyone was doing here.
[13:53:44] <bknycguy1> All hypnotized
[13:56:08] <bknycguy1> Any1 useing n800
[13:56:18] <bknycguy1> Using
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[14:11:53] <TobiasFar> stpeter: what about the discussion of XMPP RFC change from MAY to SHOULD to maintain synced rosters? any news on that?
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[14:22:24] <stpeter> TobiasFar: I will work on the next version of rfc3920bis and rfc3921bis soon -- the older versions expire on April 7
[14:22:46] <TobiasFar> ahh
[14:22:47] <TobiasFar> okay
[14:22:58] <TobiasFar> do all RFCs expire?
[14:23:02] <stpeter> TobiasFar: I have lots of notes about the changes and will incorporate everything we discussed
[14:23:09] <stpeter> RFCs never expire
[14:23:13] <stpeter> I mean the Internet-Drafts
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[14:23:18] <TobiasFar> ahh
[14:23:21] <TobiasFar> okay :)
[14:23:25] <stpeter> http://www.xmpp.org/internet-drafts/draft-saintandre-rfc3920bis-04.html and http://www.xmpp.org/internet-drafts/draft-saintandre-rfc3921bis-04.html
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[15:12:27] <brady.k> hey everyone
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[15:13:20] <brady.k> anyone know of a good, but lightweight, php library?
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[15:15:00] <Kev> class.jabber.php is the standard, afaik
[15:15:07] <Kev> although there is a new one in development atm, but I won't steal the author's thunder
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[15:16:00] <brady.k> Kev: ok. i already found that one, but was hoping there was a better solution
[15:17:03] <brady.k> thanks though... later!
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[15:36:07] <elmex> hmm
[15:36:28] <elmex> what is the usual way these days to store and retrieve the avatar of a contact (or anyone generally)?
[15:36:39] <elmex> is the pubsub ext deployed yet?
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[15:38:02] <DeSnajpa_VI> afaik people mostly use avatar in vcard
[15:38:24] <elmex> interesting
[15:38:35] <elmex> how the most important stuff is marked 'historical'
[15:39:23] <stpeter> :P
[15:39:31] <elmex> *G*
[15:39:52] <DeSnajpa_VI> good point, why vcard-temp is historical while still in use? ;p
[15:40:13] <elmex> at least the explanation at least relativates the 'historical'
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[15:44:01] <smoku> elmex: historical does not mean outdated. it just means that this is documentation of the protocol in existance, not designed by XSF.
[15:44:37] <elmex> indeeed
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[15:50:23] <stpeter> sigh, yeah, vcard-temp has been "temp" since 1999 :P
[15:53:16] <stpeter> http://www.wired.com/science/planetearth/news/2008/03/quake_network -- I wonder if they're using XMPP :)
[15:53:53] <smoku> I'm OK with vcard-temp.
[15:54:57] <smoku> if we would pursue vcard filtering, I would even be "cool" about it :)
[15:55:49] <MattJ> Filtering?
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[15:58:27] <smoku> we discussed a way to get only a part of vcard you're interested in on Standards in a year or two ago
[15:58:53] <sef> isn't there some xep for this?
[15:58:55] <smoku> so you may get only the nick if you need it, not fetching vcards, photos etc. alltogether
[15:59:44] <smoku> but the discussion dissolved in argumentation whether the filter should be inclusive, or exclusive
[16:00:22] <TobiasFar> !xep result set
[16:00:25] <xepbot> XEP-0059: Result Set Management is Standards Track (Draft, 2006-09-20) See: http://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0059.html
[16:00:48] <TobiasFar> could one use it to send user's roster in partitions to the user?
[16:01:36] <TobiasFar> it's one of this XEPs without any known implementation :P
[16:01:41] <TobiasFar> *these
[16:02:17] <smoku> isn't this used for paging through JUD search results?
[16:02:53] <TobiasFar> smoku: don't know...but afaik you can send a big iq result in more smaller iq results
[16:04:37] <smoku> 2. Use Cases
2.1. Limiting the Number of Items
2.2. Paging Forwards Through a Result Set
2.3. Paging Backwards Through a Result Set
2.4. Page Not Found
2.5. Requesting the Last Page in a Result Set
2.6. Retrieving a Page Out of Order
2.7. Getting the Item Count
[16:04:53] <smoku> exactly... you may use it to select several of many results
[16:05:18] <smoku> but not to filter some child nodes from one result
[16:05:56] <TobiasFar> smoku: could one use it to transfer the roster to client in small chunks?
[16:06:19] <smoku> maybe
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[16:06:55] <smoku> looking through the spec - yes, it could be one possible use case
[16:07:16] <smoku> just add RSM child to the roster get request
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[16:09:29] <TobiasFar> smoku: this could reduce jabber.org's load when stpeter logs in :)
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[16:10:03] <smoku> once implemented :) LOL
[16:10:19] <TobiasFar> yeah
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[16:23:53] <TobiasFar> stpeter: xep-0059 might be interesting in the mobile improvements discussions
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[16:24:41] <stpeter> TobiasFar: maybe, but I think roster sequencing is more useful for rosters
[16:26:17] <TobiasFar> just came to my mind...of course i don't want to move you guys reusing existing protocols ;)
[16:27:26] <MattJ> On that note I don't know why there is a lot of data-forms hate going around at the moment :)
[16:29:53] <TobiasFar> MattJ: i don't know either...people thinking our enhancement proposal development process is too slow...we need to raise our new XEPs/Year rate ;)
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[16:31:26] <stpeter> data forms are great for their intended use cases, but shouldn't be used everywhere
[16:32:12] <TobiasFar> yeah...for instance for more complex machine-machine interaction :)
[16:32:40] <MattJ> Well I was going to ask on the standards ML, why you decided data forms weren't best for the invitations XEP
[16:32:58] <stpeter> for instances where you don't have a good idea of the data structure, such as in-band registration
[16:33:02] <MattJ> I have a large queue of outgoing emails to write though :)
[16:33:11] <stpeter> MattJ: yeah I know the feeling
[16:33:47] <stpeter> well you know all this XMPP stuff is just a big jumble of garbage
[16:34:00] <stpeter> someday soon we'll need to replace it all with something new
[16:34:39] <MattJ> Good to know you are there to keep up morale :)
[16:34:58] <TobiasFar> MattJ: don't queuing them up would faster conversation...but not too fast...we need to keep XMPP's usecase and not raising alternatives :)
[16:35:20] <stpeter> MattJ: :P
[16:35:25] <MattJ> Well XMPP just cleared one from the queue for me :)
[16:35:35] <TobiasFar> MattJ: hehe
[16:35:36] <TobiasFar> :)
[16:35:42] <MattJ> btw, jabber.org's downtime has been too high recently
[16:36:01] <TobiasFar> MattJ: we'll soon know actual numbers
[16:36:18] <MattJ> There was a debate about the shortcomings of IRC in #gsoc, and I dived in with the XMPP flag
[16:36:27] <TobiasFar> MattJ: and can see what the 'fault tolerance rate' is ;)
[16:36:59] <stpeter> I love it how people who are totally unknown to me request to be GSoC mentors
[16:37:01] <TobiasFar> MattJ: shortcummings in #gsco?
[16:37:29] <MattJ> TobiasFar, talk about IRC's shortcomings, in #gsoc
[16:37:29] <TobiasFar> stpeter: they should at least be known in XMPP/Jabber community and on the mailing lists imo
[16:37:39] <TobiasFar> MattJ: now?
[16:37:48] <MattJ> No, yesterday
[16:37:58] <stpeter> TobiasFar: you would think so...
[16:38:08] <MattJ> After about a dozen people said they would try out Jabber, I switched windows to find that jabber.org was down
[16:38:45] smoku giggles
[16:38:51] <TobiasFar> MattJ: haha :) you know there are more available servers we guiding new users to an overloaded server?
[16:38:58] <stpeter> the website or the xmpp server?
[16:39:02] <TobiasFar> MattJ: you hate jabber.org, aren't you?
[16:39:04] <MattJ> XMPP server
[16:39:09] <TobiasFar> :)
[16:39:16] <MattJ> They wanted to try MUC in particular
[16:39:21] <TobiasFar> ahh
[16:39:26] <MattJ> and of course jabber@ and this room were down too
[16:39:39] <stpeter> MattJ: we can make you an admin, then you can restart the service if it's down :P
[16:39:43] <MattJ> After I had just been insisting that it doesn't matter that Jabber MUCs are not distributed
[16:40:10] <MattJ> Well I'm usually here trying to poke Kev on IRC when it is down (I think I have some weird timezone compared to him)
[16:40:29] <Kev> hmm?
[16:40:38] <stpeter> heh
[16:40:54] <MattJ> Kev, you tend to sleep earlier than me :)
[16:41:04] <TobiasFar> MattJ: stanza repeaters will help...and imo we need them to be there when all the IRC folks are comming :P
[16:41:20] <stpeter> sigh yeah
[16:41:23] <MattJ> TobiasFar, how will they help when jabber.org is down?
[16:41:29] <TobiasFar> MattJ: you tend to fall asleep at 03:00 :)
[16:41:33] <MattJ> They reduce traffic
[16:41:39] <Kev> MattJ: I tend to be in bed by 11, if not earlier :)
[16:41:41] <TobiasFar> MattJ: they reduce traffic and load
[16:42:28] <MattJ> You think they will cause jabber.org to stay up more than 24 hours in a row? :)
[16:42:54] <TobiasFar> MattJ: nope..i think that is just possible with software change
[16:43:14] <TobiasFar> MattJ: saidly there is no huge number of alternatives :)
[16:44:04] <stpeter> we need some admins in Australia or someplace like that
[16:44:06] <MattJ> I think ejabberd does fairly well
[16:44:10] <TobiasFar> MattJ: there must be something incredibly wrong in ejabberd or even erlang
[16:44:27] <MattJ> I'm running ejabberd on my server, and it's working ok now
[16:44:38] <TobiasFar> MattJ: of course...but how :(
[16:44:38] <stpeter> MattJ: do you have 340k users? :)
[16:44:42] <MattJ> Seems very sensitive to incorrect config though :)
[16:44:54] <MattJ> stpeter, not yet, on my poor VPS :)
[16:44:54] <TobiasFar> MattJ: and strange s2s behavior
[16:45:00] <stpeter> well, only 333,492
[16:45:06] <MattJ> TobiasFar, s2s is working fine for me
[16:45:29] <MattJ> !version ayena.de
[16:45:30] <xepbot> MattJ: ayena.de's client is ejabberd (version 2.1.0-alpha) on unix/freebsd 6.3.0
[16:45:37] <MattJ> TobiasFar, point proven? :)
[16:45:53] <TobiasFar> stpeter: the complete number isn't much important...it's the number of concurrent connected users
[16:46:12] <TobiasFar> MattJ: i know i'm using svn trunk...but it's really not that active :)
[16:47:49] <MattJ> stpeter, well I'm up past midnight UTC, and I am also here at the weekends usually
[16:48:00] <MattJ> It's just that when it is down, I don't really know who to poke
[16:48:33] <MattJ> Except for the person who just went to bed :)
[16:48:39] sjr leaves the room: Computer went to sleep
[16:49:05] <stpeter> MattJ: if you're able to restart it on your own, you won't need to poke anyone :)
[16:49:05] <stpeter> brb
[16:49:34] <TobiasFar> stpeter: or put a button for it on jabber.org website :)
[16:49:38] <TobiasFar> a big red one
[16:49:39] <TobiasFar> ;)
[16:49:50] <MattJ> xD
[16:50:09] <MattJ> Can't connect to Jabber.org? Click >>>HERE<<<
[16:50:31] <TobiasFar> exactly...a script could try to login and if it fails just restart it :)
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[16:50:55] <TobiasFar> what a username :)
[16:51:02] <MattJ> I was just thinking that :)
[16:51:03] <Itay Neeman> You could partner with http://downforeveryoneorjustme.com/ to provide a bit more robustness to the check :)
[16:51:05] <mick_home> heh
[16:51:07] <MattJ> But I didn't know what to say :P
[16:51:26] <MattJ> It could be Florian J. in disguise
[16:51:36] <TobiasFar> MattJ: yeah
[16:51:52] <TobiasFar> MattJ: maybe he lost a bet :)
[16:51:57] <MattJ> xD
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[18:42:41] <MattJ> !xep serverless
[18:42:43] <xepbot> XEP-0174: Serverless Messaging is Standards Track (Draft, 2008-03-05) See: http://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0174.html
[18:47:23] sjr leaves the room: Computer went to sleep
[18:49:23] <TobiasFar> MattJ: what about it?
[18:49:41] <MattJ> I wanted to read it ^^
[18:50:06] <TobiasFar> heeh
[18:50:32] <TobiasFar> we need XEPs in audio form
[18:50:36] <TobiasFar> for listening
[18:50:37] <TobiasFar> ;)
[18:50:51] <Itay> Who would be the reader? :)
[18:51:11] <TobiasFar> don't know
[18:51:19] <Itay> Probably peter
[18:51:28] <Itay> To lend authenticity
[18:51:48] <TobiasFar> yeah...his to-do list is too small anyway
[18:52:19] <Itay> :)
[18:58:40] <MattJ> > [00:50:34] TobiasFar: we need XEPs in audio form
[18:58:47] <MattJ> I always needed something to get me off to sleep at night
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[19:05:44] <TobiasFar> MattJ: hehe
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[19:10:15] <MattJ> !xep Jingle
[19:10:15] <xepbot> Multiple matches: XEP-0180: Jingle Video via RTP, XEP-0177: Jingle Raw UDP Transport Method, XEP-0208: Bootstrapping Implementation of Jingle, XEP-0176: Jingle ICE-UDP Transport Method, XEP-0234: Jingle File Transfer, XEP-0167: Jingle Audio via RTP, XEP-0181: Jingle DTMF, XEP-0179: Jingle IAX Transport Method, XEP-0183: Jingle Telepathy Transport Method, XEP-0166: Jingle
[19:10:30] <MattJ> !xep 234
[19:10:30] <xepbot> XEP-0234: Jingle File Transfer is Standards Track (Experimental, 2008-03-20) See: http://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0234.html Bork bork bork!
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[19:17:49] <MattJ> Hmm
[19:18:04] <MattJ> XEP-0234 doesn't define a p2p method of transfer?
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