[00:24:12] --- macbot disappears in a puff of smoke
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[01:27:59] <sneakin> where is everyone?
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[02:23:38] --- ahkitj materializes out of thin air
[02:23:39] <ChatBot> [ahkitj]: becoming a teacher, not a programmer.
[02:23:43] --- macbot disappears in a puff of smoke
[02:23:43] --- macbot materializes out of thin air
[02:24:13] --- macbar materializes out of thin air
[02:25:55] <ahkitj> hi everybody.
[02:25:56] <ahkitj> hi sneakin
[02:26:54] <macbar> err...
[02:27:57] <ahkitj> hi macbar
[02:28:14] --- macbar disappears in a puff of smoke: Disconnected
[02:28:46] --- macbar materializes out of thin air
[02:28:49] <macbar> ah ok
[02:28:51] <macbar> that's better
[02:28:58] <macbar> somehow my connection is lagging
[02:29:18] <ahkitj> oh. i find more often that i have S2S issues.
[02:29:43] <ahkitj> a quick /etc/init.d/jabber restart usually does the trick, and seeing i'm my own admin and i'm my own user, i know exactly who i'm inconveniencing :)
[02:32:44] --- macbot disappears in a puff of smoke
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[02:33:40] --- sneakin disappears in a puff of smoke: Disconnected
[02:36:16] <macbar> ahkitj: ik have usually 20-35 users online on my server, doesn't stop me from restarting
[02:36:44] <macbar> but then again, I have s2s running in a seperate jabberd process :)
[02:37:31] <ahkitj> all i know is that my server runs. see my join message for jdev as to why.
[02:40:32] --- macbot disappears in a puff of smoke
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[02:43:10] --- Piotr materializes out of thin air
[02:43:31] <Piotr> Witam wszystkich
[02:44:48] <Piotr> :)
[02:46:37] <ahkitj> ?? pl
[02:46:38] <ChatBot> [pl]: See http://www.jabberpl.org/ -- for chat, join wroclaw@conference.jabber.org || Zobacz http://www.jabberpl.org/ -- aby pogadać wejdź np. na wroclaw@conference.jabber.org
[02:46:53] <ahkitj> Hi Piotr -- do you need help with something to do with Jabber?
[02:48:01] <Piotr> yes pl ahkitj
[02:50:21] <Piotr> wylączam sie. powodzenia
[02:50:30] --- Piotr disappears in a puff of smoke
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[03:06:13] --- jcea materializes out of thin air
[03:07:56] --- Roland materializes out of thin air
[03:08:04] <Roland> hi
[03:14:43] <jcea> !time cest
[03:14:43] <ChatBot> [time]: Thu Oct 28, 2004 10:16:11 CEST
[03:15:11] --- fh materializes out of thin air
[03:23:47] <macbar> oh, that could come in handy :)
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[06:28:18] <macbar> macbot: you quitter
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[09:38:08] --- macbot materializes out of thin air
[09:38:18] --- pgmillard materializes out of thin air
[09:38:52] <ChatBot> [pgmillard]: My client could whoop your client any day
[09:39:46] <jcea> conference.jabber.org lagging :-(
[09:53:58] --- ChatBot disappears in a puff of smoke
[09:53:58] --- ChatBot materializes out of thin air
[09:55:32] --- volodja7 materializes out of thin air
[09:56:49] <pgmillard> jcea: j.org has been getting pretty loaded lately.
[09:58:35] --- Drew materializes out of thin air
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[09:59:44] <jcea> the private IM are not lagged
[09:59:49] <jcea> only the conference :-?
[10:02:46] --- stpeter materializes out of thin air
[10:03:12] <Roland> bye
[10:03:14] --- Roland disappears in a puff of smoke
[10:03:49] --- ChatBot disappears in a puff of smoke
[10:03:49] --- ChatBot materializes out of thin air
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[10:03:50] --- macbot materializes out of thin air
[10:03:53] --- volodja7 disappears in a puff of smoke: Disconnected
[10:05:07] <ChatBot> [stpeter]: Mantra #1: Email must die! Mantra #2: Fewer specs, more code!
[10:05:46] <stpeter> pgm: wee need to double-check the config on private.jabber.org, because sometimes rooms there get logged and then I need to go in and delete the logs periodically
[10:08:41] --- progman materializes out of thin air
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[10:16:29] --- ChatBot materializes out of thin air
[10:20:27] --- synic materializes out of thin air
[10:20:48] <synic> bah, my jabber server has been down for 2 days now.
[10:21:16] <synic> I swear all the admins went on vacation or something.
[10:22:04] <stpeter> :(
[10:29:10] --- arturo disappears in a puff of smoke
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[11:26:41] <Micressor> Hello @ all
[11:26:41] --- macbar disappears in a puff of smoke: Lost connection
[11:27:28] <mcube> Hi
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[11:28:38] <fern> hi all
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[12:12:49] --- sparks materializes out of thin air
[12:12:49] <ChatBot> [sparks]: hacker that beat trillian into submission.... (ouch)
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[12:50:16] --- sparks disappears in a puff of smoke: Disconnected
[12:51:18] --- sparks materializes out of thin air
[12:51:19] <ChatBot> [sparks]: hacker that beat trillian into submission.... (ouch)
[12:51:26] --- mosse materializes out of thin air
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[12:57:22] --- sparks disappears in a puff of smoke: Disconnected
[12:58:01] --- sparks materializes out of thin air
[12:58:03] <ChatBot> [sparks]: hacker that beat trillian into submission.... (ouch)
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[13:08:49] --- macbot materializes out of thin air
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[13:12:17] <miouge> Hi
[13:12:37] --- robi_25 disappears in a puff of smoke
[13:12:58] --- miouge disappears in a puff of smoke: Disconnected
[13:22:02] --- hawke materializes out of thin air
[13:22:10] <hawke> Hello all
[13:22:18] <mcube> Hi
[13:22:58] <Jajcuś> Hello :-)
[13:43:54] --- chandan materializes out of thin air
[13:52:46] <pgmillard> lag check
[13:53:10] <hawke> lag checked.
[13:53:15] <hawke> status: minimal.
[14:09:47] --- macbot disappears in a puff of smoke
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[14:20:22] --- ChatBot materializes out of thin air
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[14:35:10] <sparks> Ow. Is Jabber.org really lagged today?
[14:35:37] <hawke> doesn't seem so to me.
[14:36:36] <sparks> It's horrible lagged for me. :(
[14:36:38] <sparks> Like a minute or more.
[14:36:57] <justin> sparks: well there have been s2s issues recently
[14:37:07] <justin> the 'iteam' is working on a fix
[14:37:14] <sparks> Maybe I've screwed my karma or something.
[14:37:19] * sparks ahs.
[14:39:05] * justin has never seen anyone use /me more than spars
[14:39:09] --- justin is now known as zion
[14:39:15] <zion> *sigh* stupid tkabber
[14:39:19] * hawke uses /me all the time /me
[14:40:37] <teo> zion: put "set defaultnick(*) zion" to you config file
[14:40:51] <zion> teo: cool, thnx
[14:44:59] --- macbot disappears in a puff of smoke
[14:44:59] --- macbot materializes out of thin air
[14:45:30] --- Micressor disappears in a puff of smoke: Disconnected
[14:45:34] --- Micressor materializes out of thin air
[14:48:20] <sparks> This is horrible. The s2s is so slow that Psi is aborting transfers due to timeout before getting back the streamhost options.
[14:49:44] <hawke> Why am I not seeing this?
[14:49:56] <hawke> or does it only apply to file xfers?
[14:50:59] <sparks> I don't know. Maybe I've got a really bad karma rating or something.
[14:52:02] <sparks> On my own account off of jabber.org, I'm seeing fine responses under any client. On jabber.org, it takes 40 seconds to a moment for anything to go through, and this is true for sending an iq to an account on another server as well.
[14:52:36] <hawke> I'm seeing no problems at all, not even lag, from another server to c.j.o
[14:52:54] <sparks> So while trying to test a file transfer bug that was reported, I can't get Trillian and Psi to file transfer, because Psi gives up before ever getting an iq reply; has a timeout of 45 seconds or something, and the iq results are taking a minute or more to get across.
[14:53:10] --- sparks2 materializes out of thin air
[14:53:23] * sparks2 tries from another account, and has no issue.
[14:53:36] <sparks2> But client login to jabber.org seems to be horrible.
[14:54:00] <sparks2> Both psi and Trillian are slow as molasses when I'm on my jabber.org account. *shrug*
[14:54:06] --- sparks2 disappears in a puff of smoke
[14:54:09] <pgmillard> sparks2: yeah.. j.org has been slow.
[14:54:23] <pgmillard> we're looking at ways to fix... but it's just a lot of sudden load.
[14:54:29] <mcube> i was seeing that the other day here, but on direct connections taking a long time and from my personal server going quick
[14:54:51] <sparks> Okay. Then I'm not going to freak out or anything.
[14:54:52] --- M^3 materializes out of thin air
[14:55:02] <sparks> pgm - Any idea what the increased load is from?
[14:55:05] <hawke> Aargh, is there any page on the net that explains how to put two divs next to each other??
[14:55:17] <M^3> test
[14:55:32] <pgmillard> sparks: we jumped to 10k concurrent users (basically).
[14:55:38] <mcube> test
[14:55:40] <pgmillard> from like 8500
[14:56:02] <M^3> yeah, from here on my personal server it is very fast
[14:56:09] <pgmillard> sparks: http://status.jabber.org/
[14:56:13] <pgmillard> is new & improved... shows load.
[14:56:58] <pgmillard> M^3: using s2s?
[14:57:53] <M^3> yes
[14:58:00] <mcube> yes
[14:58:41] <M^3> I just connected from here (ejabberd) and it is fast for me. my direct connection to jabber.org is the slow one
[14:59:40] <M^3> wouldn't it be funny if the traffic graphing software was causing the load?
[15:00:00] <M^3> not likely, but funny
[15:02:42] <Micressor> I can't connect with my jabber.org account at the moment.
[15:03:39] <Micressor> touch down, connection to jabber.org after one minute ;)
[15:03:55] <M^3> my client was timing out yesterday
[15:04:32] <Micressor> With ssl i can't connect. Now I am connected without ssl.
[15:04:57] --- pgm materializes out of thin air
[15:05:08] <M^3> thats exactly what happened to me, then it got better and I turned ssl back on and reconnected
[15:05:09] * pgm checks lag over here.
[15:05:09] <pgmillard> M^3: it's not the cause. *fwap*
[15:05:16] <pgm> yeah, definitely better.
[15:05:32] <pgm> the load existed before the mrtg stuff.
[15:05:39] * M^3 rubs the sore spot on his head
[15:05:43] <pgm> I put up the mrtg to get a better sense of how things are working over time.
[15:09:38] --- ChatBot disappears in a puff of smoke
[15:09:38] --- ChatBot materializes out of thin air
[15:13:38] <M^3> are you going to have to turn off new registrations for the server to keep the number of client connections from growing to fast?
[15:14:08] <Micressor> How much new registrations on jabber.org daily?
[15:14:20] <M^3> or is this a more of an optimization or bug related slow down?
[15:14:32] <sparks> Oh, joy. The login timeout fun.
[15:14:46] <pgm> well we need more mem on the box... thats the first thing.
[15:15:11] <M^3> so jump to 2GB
[15:15:19] --- macbot disappears in a puff of smoke
[15:15:20] <M^3> I assume is the nest sep?
[15:15:24] <pgm> yeah.
[15:18:16] <sparks> pgm -- I will donate moola out of my next paycheck if it goes towards RAM for zeus.
[15:18:20] <sparks> 'cause this is horrible. :)
[15:18:54] <Micressor> ;)
[15:19:22] <M^3> cheaper than cerulean studios setting up their own server
[15:19:50] --- macbot materializes out of thin air
[15:23:15] <pgm> sparks: haha... talk to stpeter :)
[15:23:22] <pgm> sparks: we need a paypal thing setup for j.org
[15:23:36] <zion> ick ... paypal
[15:24:06] --- ChatBot disappears in a puff of smoke
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[15:29:35] --- ChatBot disappears in a puff of smoke
[15:29:35] --- ChatBot materializes out of thin air
[15:29:45] <pgm> zion: you're anti paypal?
[15:33:45] <zion> too many horror stories
[15:33:52] <zion> so not really anti just wary
[15:34:11] --- ChatBot disappears in a puff of smoke
[15:34:11] --- ChatBot materializes out of thin air
[15:35:10] --- Video materializes out of thin air
[15:35:27] <Video> test
[15:37:02] --- zion disappears in a puff of smoke
[15:37:05] --- DżaDża materializes out of thin air
[15:37:10] <Video> out of curiosity, what is happening to j.org?
[15:37:29] --- DżaDża disappears in a puff of smoke
[15:40:06] --- DżaDża materializes out of thin air
[15:40:19] --- DżaDża disappears in a puff of smoke
[15:45:02] --- infiniti materializes out of thin air
[15:45:06] <ChatBot> [infiniti]: I'm really quite finite
[15:49:38] --- Micressor disappears in a puff of smoke
[15:51:54] --- synic materializes out of thin air
[15:52:50] <synic> I noticed that PSI only asks for a username and a password when creating an account. What does it do if the server requires more information to register?
[15:55:40] <infiniti> "requires" ? then it probably doesn't work
[15:57:00] --- mcube disappears in a puff of smoke
[15:57:12] <synic> ok, so there's no way to register for a server that requires an email address, etc?
[15:57:51] <infiniti> i guess not, if it is a required field
[15:59:52] --- macbot disappears in a puff of smoke
[15:59:52] --- macbot materializes out of thin air
[16:00:43] <infiniti> support for it shouldn't be too hard to add, since the registration protocol is identical to that of transport registration. so we could just use the same code.
[16:00:54] --- mike.owens materializes out of thin air
[16:01:17] <infiniti> however, i wasn't planning to do any more with account registration, and I'm hoping to just axe it completely someday
[16:02:56] <hawke> sheesh, why is everyone so down on inband registration?
[16:03:13] <pgmillard> hawke: cause it's "easy".
[16:04:09] <hawke> pgmillard: ??
[16:04:22] <pgmillard> easy for end users.
[16:04:31] <hawke> And that's a bad thing?
[16:04:46] <pgmillard> oh.. do you mean "down" = bad?
[16:04:56] <hawke> Yes.
[16:04:57] <pgmillard> I thought you are anti-inband reg.
[16:05:03] <hawke> Nope.
[16:05:12] <pgmillard> dunno then.
[16:05:25] <pgmillard> for the "public server" use case, inband registration is great.
[16:05:27] <hawke> Especially for early-on in Jabber acceptance, I'd say it's almost vital.
[16:05:38] <pgmillard> for all other use cases, it doesn't really apply.
[16:05:52] <hawke> Even for private servers...I think the idea of "activating" an account would be good.
[16:06:01] <infiniti> hawke: my beef with it is that it promotes a divide between the server face and users
[16:06:21] <pgmillard> hawke: for example, most of our (jinc) customers have an out-of-band user provisioning system.. or they just use LDAP.
[16:06:24] <synic> ooh, jsmaria is using iChat
[16:06:27] <infiniti> the fact that there are all these public servers with no web front is by far worse for end users
[16:06:50] <hawke> infiniti: How so?
[16:07:06] <pgmillard> infiniti: I have an AIM account, and _never_ go to aol.com
[16:07:13] --- mike.owens disappears in a puff of smoke: Disconnected
[16:07:18] <infiniti> jabber is not like IRC where you just pick a rando server
[16:07:22] <infiniti> m
[16:07:32] <infiniti> but people do that
[16:07:33] <hawke> infiniti: Neither is IRC ...
[16:07:41] <hawke> infiniti: YOu need to pick a network.
[16:07:52] --- przemek12600 materializes out of thin air
[16:07:54] <hawke> even though that network consists of multiple servers.
[16:08:04] --- gttest_79 materializes out of thin air
[16:08:07] <hawke> in fact, you can picka random server more than you can on IRC
[16:08:15] <hawke> since any server can talk to any other w/o special config.
[16:08:25] --- przemek12600 disappears in a puff of smoke
[16:08:26] <infiniti> yes but you can't change servers later. it is an important decision
[16:08:41] <hawke> infiniti: No more so than an email address.
[16:08:46] --- mike.owens materializes out of thin air
[16:09:03] <infiniti> right. and with email we have glittery websites like hotmail.com giving you some indication of who is running it
[16:09:30] <infiniti> what servers would you trust on jabber? go through the list on jabber.org. my guess is that you personally would only use like 3 of them
[16:09:31] <hawke> infiniti: Yes, but hotmail is *primarily* a web-based email service.
[16:09:56] <hawke> infiniti: For a java- or web-based jabber client I'd totally agree that a web interface is important.
[16:10:22] <hawke> And perhaps some focus should be given to making an easy-to-install jabber web client.
[16:10:32] --- mike.owens disappears in a puff of smoke
[16:10:56] <jsmaria> hawke: there is no in-band registration for non-web based email clients... should there be?
[16:11:11] <hawke> jsmaria: Umm.. Yes there is.
[16:11:13] <synic> jsmaria: is that the iChat that will be on Tiger?
[16:11:15] --- mike.owens materializes out of thin air
[16:11:27] <jsmaria> iCan't say anything about my client. :-/ sorry
[16:11:34] --- teo disappears in a puff of smoke
[16:11:52] <synic> I'll take that as a yes then.
[16:11:53] <synic> :)
[16:11:57] <jsmaria> hawke: there is? i was unaware of that...
[16:12:15] <hawke> jsmaria: Yep..that's the current normal way of registering a jabber account
[16:12:23] <jsmaria> no, with email
[16:12:30] <hawke> jsmaria: Oh, right
[16:12:33] <hawke> sorry, missed that.
[16:12:42] <jsmaria> hawke: np
[16:14:05] <hawke> jsmaria: There generally is no registration method for non-web-based email at all. They come as a package deal with, e.g. an ISP account
[16:14:44] <hawke> (in general, of course there are exceptions)
[16:15:32] <infiniti> hawke: my point is this. if you look at the server list and see "sparetimegroup.net". would you recommend your mom to use it? not right off you wouldn't. you'd see if it has a web page. you'd see if it looks legit and has an admin contact. maybe find out how long it has been around.
[16:15:56] <hawke> infiniti: So it comes down to trust metrics then, right?
[16:16:05] <infiniti> a website like this could easily have a registration form. and so at that point inband reg doesn't even matter.
[16:16:33] <infiniti> i suppose. your own personal metrics :)
[16:16:44] --- pgm disappears in a puff of smoke
[16:16:53] <hawke> infiniti: I think that the disconnection between the interface for web and the client would be a problem.
[16:17:20] <infiniti> have you seen the new end-user jabber site effort? it looks like it should be fairly easy
[16:17:36] <infiniti> "here's what you get", "sign up here", "download your client"
[16:17:57] <infiniti> rather than, "download your client", and "hope you don't get lost! good bye!"
[16:18:03] <hawke> infiniti: agreed there.
[16:18:26] <hawke> but I think people are more likely to go "I want an IM account, what client, where should I go for an account"
[16:18:47] <jsmaria> hawke: i don't know if that's the case ... most people go to the web to checkout stuff first, i would say
[16:18:51] <hawke> or "I want to try out this IM thing, Psi looks good so I'll try it"
[16:18:52] --- synic disappears in a puff of smoke: Replaced by new connection
[16:18:56] <jsmaria> hawke: you have to use the web to get a good client
[16:19:16] <hawke> jsmaria: But they'll be looking primarily at the client.
[16:19:24] <jsmaria> hawke: someone who doesn't know about Jabber, isn't going to think, or even know, to go to the Psi page.
[16:19:39] <hawke> jsmaria: Sure they will, from the j.o clients page.
[16:20:56] <hawke> so more completely, "I want IM, what's a good system, jabber, how do I use it, client, which client, Psi, what does the client ask for, a jabber account"
[16:21:05] <hawke> Psi being an example of course
[16:21:20] <hawke> would apply equally to any client.
[16:21:27] --- mike.owens disappears in a puff of smoke
[16:21:42] <jsmaria> hawke: sure, i see your point of the experience of the matter ... but i don't think the "confusion" factor is any more or less when you put registration in-band vs. on the web.
[16:22:21] <jsmaria> i.e. AOL AIM does just this thing on their pages
[16:22:33] <hawke> jsmaria: I think it is, because if you remove web-based, the client says "OK, you downloaded me from the web so you're ready to go, oh wait gotta go back up to the web again and sign up for an account"
[16:22:37] <hawke> er
[16:22:50] <jsmaria> hawke: i'm not saying we should mimic them or anything, but people have managed to get through that process and going wihtout issue
[16:22:50] <hawke> remove /in-band/ that is
[16:23:32] <hawke> but doesn't an AIM account imply more than IM?
[16:23:57] <jsmaria> hawke: i would say a Jabber account implies more than IM than an AIM one does ;-)
[16:24:04] <hawke> ICQ has inband, and is only IM. MSN implies more than IM, Yahoo implies more than IM. Not sure about gadu-gadu or AIM.
[16:24:21] <hawke> jsmaria: Oh? What more stuff do you get with a Jabber account?
[16:24:23] <jsmaria> i believe AIM is just IM, but i could be wrong.
[16:24:32] <jsmaria> hawke: a communications platform. :-)
[16:24:40] <hawke> jsmaria: Sure, but not to the enduser.
[16:24:46] <jsmaria> but, granted, it would be used mostly for IM
[16:24:57] <jsmaria> yes, I agree.
[16:25:06] <jsmaria> i was being "cute'
[16:25:12] <hawke> by " more than IM" I mean stuff like yahoo games, msn hotmail, ... all the stuff that are implied by "a yahoo account" or "an msn account" :-p
[16:25:19] <jsmaria> gotcha
[16:25:49] <infiniti> some jabber providers offer more services i think. like amessage.de
[16:26:04] <infiniti> but we're still very far from anything offered like msn
[16:26:31] <hawke> Right
[16:26:36] <jsmaria> infiniti: are the end-user pages somewhere online?
[16:27:04] <infiniti> what do you mean, like http://amessage.de/ ?
[16:28:00] --- adamosiko materializes out of thin air
[16:28:46] <jsmaria> infiniti: have you seen the new end-user jabber site effort? it looks like it should be fairly easy
[16:29:23] --- adamosiko disappears in a puff of smoke
[16:30:57] --- Jajcuś disappears in a puff of smoke: Spaaaać...
[16:32:17] <infiniti> [14:18:25] <infiniti> have you seen the new end-user jabber site effort?  it looks like it should be fairly easy
[16:32:44] <infiniti> did we actually write the exact same thing??
[16:33:10] <jsmaria> sorry ... that was a copy-paste ... that was confusing....
[16:33:15] <hawke> Heh
[16:33:42] <hawke> Where is this "end-user jabber site effort"? I'd heard some chatter on the lists about it, but I don't recall ever seeing a URL.
[16:33:57] <jsmaria> hawke: thanks ... my tongue was tied. :-)
[16:34:17] <infiniti> http://jcs.jabberstudio.org/
[16:35:38] <hawke> thanks
[16:35:41] <infiniti> it needs some work, but at least someone is trying :)
[16:35:44] <hawke> "With most instant messaging systems, messages sent to you while you are offline are never received. " ... is that really true?
[16:36:14] <infiniti> that's a confusing way to write it, but yeah
[16:36:30] <infiniti> for example, with aim, if you send to an offline person, it just bounces saying they are offline (i think)
[16:36:32] <hawke> ICQ and yahoo have offline messages. I assume AIM does too. Isn't MSN the only one that doesn't?
[16:36:34] <hawke> really??
[16:36:42] <hawke> I don't have an aim account, so I can't verify
[16:36:44] <infiniti> yup
[16:37:03] <infiniti> i'm certain they don't have offline messages. the "i think" part is just about how it is handled
[16:37:19] <jsmaria> hawke: AIM does not.
[16:37:29] <hawke> still, that's 60/40 in favour of having offline messages. ICQ/Yahoo/Jabber yes, AIM/MSN no.
[16:37:35] <hawke> so "most" is inaccurate.
[16:37:52] <hawke> Unless you get into IRC, Gadu-Gadu(maybe)
[16:37:54] <infiniti> yeah but... those first 3 have much smaller userbases
[16:38:29] <hawke> but it's counting systems, not users.
[16:38:39] --- dream01 materializes out of thin air
[16:39:10] <infiniti> hmm, you're right :)
[16:39:19] <hawke> perhaps "the most popular" or "some" would be better.
[16:39:30] --- dream01 disappears in a puff of smoke
[16:39:49] --- mike.owens materializes out of thin air
[16:39:56] <hawke> infiniti: I think Psi should switch to the Crystal iconset. :-)
[16:40:06] <infiniti> enough with the iconsets!
[16:40:13] <hawke> hehe
[16:40:28] <infiniti> i can't believe we've spent like 200 mail on this subject
[16:40:52] --- mike.owens disappears in a puff of smoke
[16:41:16] <infiniti> it's nice to see that people are actively participanting though
[16:43:02] <hawke> Agreed.
[16:43:36] <hawke> infiniti: The only reason I think the default should be changed is for the unification of a jabber look.
[16:43:44] <hawke> So people can go "ooh, lightbulb, jabber"
[16:45:20] <infiniti> sorry i'm just not into the light bulb
[16:46:21] --- mike.owens materializes out of thin air
[16:46:47] <infiniti> not for a roster iconset, at least. the account section has light bulbs :)
[16:46:51] --- Video disappears in a puff of smoke: Disconnected
[16:46:51] --- dream01 materializes out of thin air
[16:47:10] --- dream01 disappears in a puff of smoke
[16:47:20] <hawke> infiniti: Not to step on your toes here, but I think it would be good of you to consider the whole of jabber ... especially since you are the lead maintainer of one of the most popular clients.
[16:47:51] --- Mauricio materializes out of thin air
[16:47:51] <hawke> You can always change your personal iconset, but I think the default should be something jabberish ... and that seems to be light bulbs.
[16:48:20] --- mike.owens disappears in a puff of smoke
[16:49:07] --- gttest_79 disappears in a puff of smoke: Disconnected
[16:50:39] <infiniti> a position i didn't expect to have
[16:50:53] <Mauricio> hi all from Brazil
[16:51:07] <infiniti> along the same lines, you could say that i should change the main UI to not act like the unfamiliar ICQ
[16:51:18] --- mike.owens materializes out of thin air
[16:52:22] <hawke> infiniti: Well, I have never seen much difference between ICQ and other IM clients, personally.
[16:53:02] <infiniti> for some reason, a lot of people can't stand it. just ask stpeter :)
[16:53:36] <infiniti> Mauricio: hello
[16:54:25] <infiniti> hawke: anyway i see what you're saying. but it's kind of a sucky position to be in. because i originally wanted to make a great geek client
[16:55:09] <hawke> infiniti: Yeah, I see what you mean.
[16:56:43] * pgmillard watches infiniti get pulled to the dark side.
[16:56:48] <hawke> infiniti: Wonder if it might be a good idea to further emulate ICQ, with the global "advanced" mode.
[16:57:47] <hawke> infiniti: At least you have made a great (some, like me, might say "the best") all-around client..
[16:59:53] --- synic materializes out of thin air
[17:00:10] <infiniti> hawke: i'm still holding out for a time when we can have client forks
[17:00:41] <synic> so what server do you all use? I've been using nureality.ca, but it has been down for 2 days now
[17:00:49] <hawke> synic: I use my own server.
[17:00:50] --- Mauricio disappears in a puff of smoke
[17:00:51] <synic> I've been switching servers a lot lately because of things like this....
[17:00:57] <synic> is there a reliable server out there?
[17:01:00] <infiniti> synic: own server here too
[17:01:15] <infiniti> jabber.org, amessage.de are the most popular
[17:01:17] --- Mauricio materializes out of thin air
[17:01:51] <synic> I've gone through jabber.org and amessage.de
[17:02:00] <synic> both were down quite a bit
[17:02:29] <infiniti> the way i see it, most people make their decisions based on the defaults, since most people won't even try to dig deeper (techies included)
[17:03:24] <infiniti> so for example, instead of a nice checkbox in psi: [ x ] - "look like rhymbox", it would be better to actually have a separate package dedicated to that
[17:04:05] <hawke> infiniti: You're talking about separation of UI from backend functionality, right?
[17:04:35] --- Mauricio disappears in a puff of smoke
[17:04:36] --- synic disappears in a puff of smoke: Lost connection
[17:04:45] <infiniti> not in such a drastic-sounding way, no
[17:04:58] --- Mauricio materializes out of thin air
[17:05:06] --- ahkitj materializes out of thin air
[17:05:07] <ChatBot> [ahkitj]: becoming a teacher, not a programmer.
[17:06:02] <infiniti> you'd take the psi source, destroy the UI as much as you wish, and release a new package
[17:06:05] --- ahkitj disappears in a puff of smoke
[17:06:37] <hawke> infiniti: Sounds like what I was talking about.
[17:06:47] <hawke> infiniti: Also sounds quite cool, and complex.
[17:07:27] <infiniti> well, not really. you could do it now if you wanted. :)
[17:08:01] <infiniti> but in order to make this more sensible, i want to centralize most of the code such that it would make upgrading easier. the problem with forks is that it is easy for them to get outdated. so we just need a way to avoid most of that problem
[17:09:46] <infiniti> but another big issue is how to organize such efforts. i think if someone did fork psi to make it look like msn, or iChat, or something, we probably wouldn't want to host it on the same psi website.
[17:09:53] <hawke> Yeah.
[17:09:53] --- Mauricio disappears in a puff of smoke
[17:09:57] <infiniti> it would be like adium. there'd be a whole new front
[17:10:18] --- mike.owens disappears in a puff of smoke
[17:12:31] --- Mauricio materializes out of thin air
[17:12:35] <infiniti> but this will be long after i'm done coding for this project unfortunately, so we'll see where things go ...
[17:12:39] <hawke> Hehe
[17:12:40] <hawke> yup.
[17:12:57] --- Mauricio disappears in a puff of smoke
[17:15:25] <infiniti> i've passed the torch to kev. i'll probably announce this soon
[17:16:14] --- mike.owens materializes out of thin air
[17:16:15] <hawke> Looks like you just did. At least 'til the muc buffer empties it out. ;-)
[17:16:37] <infiniti> haha
[17:17:46] <infiniti> well it might be pretty obvious already considering he's been directing the list discussion
[17:17:54] --- mike.owens disappears in a puff of smoke
[17:18:06] <infiniti> but i mean a "formal" announcement, whatever that's supposed to mean :)
[17:18:25] <hawke> Are you going to still work on it in your spare time, or drop off the Psi-face-of-the-Earth totally?
[17:19:49] <infiniti> i'm going to reduce myself to "founder" status. i'll stay the point of contact for the project, but otherwise i'll be useless.
[17:19:56] <hawke> or not commit either way. ;-)
[17:20:26] <infiniti> until i can eventually pull a jeremie
[17:20:38] <hawke> a what?
[17:21:00] <infiniti> i'm referring to jeremie miller, founder of jabber. :)
[17:21:21] <hawke> ahh
[17:22:13] <infiniti> for now i'm focusing on my lib work until i can pass that on too
[17:23:01] <infiniti> qca is coming along. i think i can get to v2 before the end of the year and then i'm done.
[17:23:21] <hawke> Awesome.
[17:34:24] <hawke> Heh, Psi+kde+tool windows do not work out very well.
[17:35:20] <hawke> either that or KDE is just really dumb about tool windows
[17:38:49] <pgmillard> infiniti: ?? qca
[17:38:51] --- gttest_501 materializes out of thin air
[17:39:31] <hawke> qca == QT Cryptographic Architecture
[17:39:46] --- gttest_501 disappears in a puff of smoke
[17:40:00] <hawke> A cryptography framework for Qt. Er...that's kind obvious, isn't it.
[17:40:12] <hawke> http://delta.affinix.com/qca/
[17:42:12] --- macbot disappears in a puff of smoke
[17:42:12] --- macbot materializes out of thin air
[17:42:12] --- Netspider materializes out of thin air
[17:42:16] <Netspider> re
[17:42:16] --- jcea disappears in a puff of smoke
[17:43:01] <Netspider> Hello All..
[17:43:06] <hawke> Hi
[17:43:43] <Netspider> I guess that I'll be apperaing in this conference alot... :)
[17:44:03] <hawke> Cool
[17:44:09] <Netspider> I'm the developer of the eJogger project. :D Looking for all help i could find.. :)
[17:44:16] --- mosse materializes out of thin air
[17:45:10] --- mosse disappears in a puff of smoke
[17:46:52] <hawke> ??powwow
[17:46:57] <hawke> ?? powwow
[17:46:57] <ChatBot> Unknown query "powwow"
[17:49:56] <infiniti> hawke: kwin doesn't do tool windows the same way as windows. whether or not that is right or wrong is another question ..
[17:50:52] <hawke> infiniti: It doesn't do it the same as gnome either.
[17:52:06] <hawke> Are tool windows supposed to be children of some other window or windows?
[17:53:39] <infiniti> usually they are. i don't know if that is a requirement
[17:54:37] <hawke> Apparently it is to KWin. :-/
[18:25:08] --- Netspider disappears in a puff of smoke
[18:37:24] <pgmillard> lag check
[18:38:19] <hawke> lag checked.
[18:38:24] <hawke> Status: minimal.
[18:42:01] --- tadeusz.fecko materializes out of thin air
[18:42:16] <tadeusz.fecko> jebal was pies
[18:42:17] --- pgmillard disappears in a puff of smoke
[18:42:48] <tadeusz.fecko> kurwa
[18:42:50] <tadeusz.fecko> cipa
[18:42:56] <tadeusz.fecko> chuj
[18:43:12] <tadeusz.fecko> bye
[18:46:36] --- tadeusz.fecko disappears in a puff of smoke
[18:57:55] --- JasonatOffice materializes out of thin air
[18:58:24] <JasonatOffice> whats up!
[19:01:49] --- Netspider materializes out of thin air
[19:05:48] --- jsmaria disappears in a puff of smoke
[19:08:08] --- synic materializes out of thin air
[19:08:33] --- JasonatOffice disappears in a puff of smoke
[19:11:26] --- swiney materializes out of thin air
[19:12:09] <swiney> hi all
[19:12:24] <swiney> anyone out there work with the transports much?
[19:12:30] <hawke> A bit, why?
[19:13:55] <swiney> I've been working on the aim transport... adding a patch and trying out some other folks' patches... one claims to send your vcard along to AOL, but it looks like it never gets the events when I set my vcard... probably a problem in the patch, or is it possible that I need to add something to my jabberd.xml file to get these events sent along to the transport?
[19:14:24] <swiney> or are they just never sent to the transports?
[19:14:25] <hawke> more likely to be a problem with the patch.
[19:14:35] <Netspider> re
[19:14:44] <swiney> re?
[19:14:59] <hawke> I know of nothing in the jabber server that would intercept them.
[19:15:12] <hawke> as long as they were to='transport.server.tld'
[19:15:37] <hawke> But I am hardly an expert on that sort of thing.
[19:16:20] <swiney> but they're not, initially... they're just setting your vcard on the jabber side...
[19:16:34] --- acous materializes out of thin air
[19:16:46] <swiney> when I put it debug code, the part of the code where the patch should get triggered never even gets called
[19:16:49] <hawke> Ah.
[19:17:14] <hawke> Presumably this is a modification to the vcard code in jabberd to pass it along to transports?
[19:17:25] <swiney> at any rate... do you know if any of the other transports do this successfully... repeating the vcard onto the other service for their own profiles?
[19:17:28] <swiney> no
[19:17:32] <swiney> no changes to vcard code
[19:17:37] <swiney> just in the transport
[19:17:38] <hawke> No, none of the other transports do that.
[19:17:47] <swiney> ah ok
[19:18:02] <hawke> Then, yes, I don't know of anyway it would work w/o modifying the server's vcard code.
[19:18:38] <swiney> fair enough.
[19:18:41] <swiney> thanks
[19:19:12] <hawke> np
[19:19:31] <hawke> You might want to look at vcard2jud
[19:19:40] <hawke> since it does something similar to what you want
[19:19:44] <swiney> thanks. where is that?
[19:19:46] <hawke> at least as a starting point
[19:19:57] <hawke> somewhere in the server code; it's a config option.
[19:20:07] <hawke> which passes on the vcard to a jud component.
[19:20:24] <hawke> I know nothing of how it works though
[19:21:28] <swiney> OK. Maybe that's the trick. The author of the patch claimed on a public blog that the patch worked and posted it there... but I've had trouble contacting him, and we're trying to merge it into the main CVS for aim-t... that's why I assumed it might be as simple as a jabberd.xml option
[19:22:12] <hawke> It might work if you told the jabberd that the aim transport was a jud
[19:22:20] <hawke> not sure on that
[19:22:27] <swiney> that's what I was thinking, based on your comment
[19:22:42] <hawke> a more general-purpose, vcard2transport might be a cool thing
[19:22:46] <hawke> well, time to go, ttyl.
[19:22:54] <swiney> later. and THANKS
[19:23:07] <hawke> Hope it was helpful, bye.
[19:23:25] --- hawke disappears in a puff of smoke
[19:25:21] --- acous disappears in a puff of smoke
[19:28:21] --- macbot disappears in a puff of smoke
[19:28:22] --- macbot materializes out of thin air
[19:31:59] --- ahkitj materializes out of thin air
[19:31:59] <ChatBot> [ahkitj]: becoming a teacher, not a programmer.
[19:32:22] * ahkitj waves.
[19:39:30] --- ChatBot disappears in a puff of smoke
[19:39:30] --- ChatBot materializes out of thin air
[19:48:24] <Netspider> Hello all.
[19:48:32] <ahkitj> Hi Netspider
[19:49:08] <Netspider> is anybody interested in helping to test an open-source jabber-related project ;) :D
[19:49:14] <ahkitj> depends.
[19:49:19] <ahkitj> what is it Netspider?
[19:49:22] <Netspider> eJogger
[19:51:35] <ahkitj> go on.
[19:54:25] <Netspider> it's a jabber blogger
[19:54:35] <Netspider> a spin-off from a long dead Jogger...
[19:54:40] <ahkitj> thought so
[19:54:48] <Netspider> check out on jabberstudio...
[19:54:52] <ahkitj> yes, jogger seems somewhat deceased, though iirc linux.it's jogger still goes.
[19:55:15] <Netspider> you mean there's another development??
[19:55:29] <ahkitj> well, as in linux.it's installation is still up
[19:55:31] <ahkitj> so no
[19:55:38] <Netspider> cause i know a Polish one, but they don't share the sources (or at least it seems so)
[19:56:01] <ahkitj> ah
[19:56:10] <Netspider> i actually meant the code improvement and new features...
[19:56:28] <ahkitj> there, just put in an entry... http://jabber.linux.it/jogger/
[19:56:38] <ahkitj> i haven't kept up with jogger lately
[19:57:33] <Netspider> yeah..
[19:57:49] <Netspider> mine has more features.. but it's pretty unstable...
[19:58:09] <Netspider> i need more case studies :) to know where to dig for issues...
[19:58:24] <Netspider> i got it working pretty stable for a couple of weeks at jabber.autocom.pl..
[19:58:56] --- infiniti disappears in a puff of smoke
[20:01:44] --- swiney disappears in a puff of smoke: Disconnected
[20:05:44] <ahkitj> do you have an english page, sorry?
[20:05:56] <Netspider> yeah
[20:06:03] <Netspider> about eJogger you mean?
[20:06:07] <ahkitj> yeah.
[20:06:16] <ahkitj> that last url you gave seems to be in polish :)
[20:06:21] <Netspider> well, it's not like a page, just a news feed....
[20:06:28] <ahkitj> thought so actually
[20:06:33] <Netspider> ejogger.jabberstudio.org should redirect..
[20:06:44] <Netspider> more info on the project page on jabberstudio
[20:06:54] * ahkitj is looking
[20:08:38] <ahkitj> well i'm happy to help out if you give me a JID to blog against.
[20:09:31] <Netspider> well, actually i was looking for somebody who can install it on their server...
[20:09:36] <Netspider> but that would help too...
[20:09:53] <ahkitj> oh. thought you meant the former. i really don't have time to diddle with my web and jabber server at the mo'. :(
[20:10:00] <Netspider> ok...
[20:10:16] <Netspider> can you put my request to this room's subject line?
[20:10:21] <Netspider> so that other people know?
[20:10:22] <ahkitj> but yeah as i said i'm happy to help with entries.
[20:10:30] <ahkitj> possibly. what sort of entry do you propose?
[20:10:30] <Netspider> oh, ok..
[20:10:44] <Netspider> well try to check jogger.jabber.exceede.com any time soon..
[20:11:02] <Netspider> it's mostly down 'cause i run same copy that i develop :)
[20:11:11] <ahkitj> oops, clarifications: > but yeah as i said i'm happy to help with entries. i'm happy to help make entries in to the jogger. > possibly. what sort of entry do you propose? what sort of subject line do you propose for jdev?
[20:11:28] <ahkitj> back in 5
[20:11:30] <Netspider> jogger.jabber.autocom.pl should be up all the time..
[20:12:25] <Netspider> >what sort of subject line do you propose for jdev? Testers are needed for eJogger project. http://ejogger.jabberstudio.org/. Check the page for details.
[20:12:31] <Netspider> something like that...
[20:14:02] <ahkitj> could you please condense it?
[20:14:21] <Netspider> Testers needed <link>
[20:14:25] <Netspider> would do too..
[20:14:43] <ahkitj> that work?
[20:14:43] <Netspider> my JID is fairly long too...
[20:14:44] <Netspider> thanks...
[20:15:08] <Netspider> awesome..
[20:20:03] <ahkitj> Netspider: perhaps you should add the transport to register to that page i've put in the subject line
[20:20:56] <Netspider> oh, well. right now i'm mostly conserned with component stability, so i'm looking for server-side testers...
[20:21:20] <ahkitj> sure thing. sorry i'm not keen on testing with my little baby
[20:22:47] <Netspider> no worries :)
[20:22:54] <Netspider> hopefully i'll find somebody...
[20:23:06] <ahkitj> yeah. good luck!
[20:30:05] <Netspider> tnx
[20:30:35] <Netspider> i would also appreciate PHP coders, for the help with the front end development
[20:32:35] --- macbot disappears in a puff of smoke
[20:32:35] --- macbot materializes out of thin air
[20:48:09] <ahkitj> Netspider: would jdev: Jabber Development | Testers and developers needed for ejogger -- http://ejogger.jabberstudio.org/ be better?
[20:48:27] <ahkitj> or... jdev: Jabber Development | Testers and PHP developers needed for ejogger -- http://ejogger.jabberstudio.org/ ?
[20:48:28] <Netspider> yeah sure.
[20:48:35] <Netspider> thanks
[20:55:02] <ahkitj> there we go
[20:55:15] <Netspider> awesome, thaks a bunch..
[20:55:30] <ahkitj> np
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[21:50:57] --- songhf materializes out of thin air
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[22:03:54] --- Netspider disappears in a puff of smoke
[22:34:59] --- macbot disappears in a puff of smoke
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[23:12:00] --- Netspider materializes out of thin air
[23:19:43] --- Micressor materializes out of thin air
[23:20:49] --- Micressor disappears in a puff of smoke: Disconnected
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[23:27:36] --- sneakin materializes out of thin air
[23:27:52] <sneakin> ah...better turnout than last night
[23:29:17] <sneakin> is there no subject atm?
[23:30:02] <ahkitj> i can see one sneaking.
[23:30:08] <ahkitj> i'll leave the room and see what happens.
[23:30:12] --- ahkitj disappears in a puff of smoke
[23:30:19] --- ahkitj materializes out of thin air
[23:30:20] <ChatBot> [ahkitj]: becoming a teacher, not a programmer.
[23:30:26] <ahkitj> nope, i can see one
[23:31:37] <ahkitj> what was the turnout like last night btw sneakin?
[23:33:00] <sneakin> me and a handful of people
[23:33:14] <sneakin> well, minus a couple if you count the bots
[23:36:15] --- macbot disappears in a puff of smoke
[23:36:15] --- macbot materializes out of thin air
[23:38:57] <ahkitj> of course :)
[23:39:08] <ahkitj> how do you use macbot anyway btw?
[23:39:15] <ahkitj> i can't persuade her/him to reply
[23:39:28] <sneakin> it's a modified chatbot that logs raw xml
[23:39:38] --- sparks disappears in a puff of smoke: Logging off
[23:39:39] <ahkitj> ok, so no autoreplies?
[23:39:44] <sneakin> macbar set it up to help me diagnose a segfault in my psi muc code
[23:40:27] <ahkitj> ah
[23:45:17] <ahkitj> does it spit out its stuff to a webserver?
[23:45:24] <sneakin> yep
[23:45:36] <ahkitj> uri please? :)
[23:46:26] * sneakin is looking
[23:46:45] <ahkitj> just curious that's all so no hurry
[23:46:56] <sneakin> http://macbar.fab4.be/logxml/
[23:47:13] <ahkitj> cheers
[23:47:40] <ahkitj> Forbidden You don't have permission to access /logxml/2004-10-29.xml on this server. Apache/1.3.31 Server at macbar.fab4.be Port 80
[23:47:53] <ahkitj> oh wait, i can access other days though
[23:48:07] <sneakin> hmm...macbar may need to get the perms setup
[23:48:27] <ahkitj> bah, there's enough in the way of examples all good
[23:48:36] <sneakin> looking at fab4.be, i'm getting the idea that you could colo a server and have it pay for itself
[23:50:30] --- Micressor disappears in a puff of smoke