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[18:40:26] <> Kev: still need to get the logs working again here
[18:40:37] <> Oh, I thought that'd been done.
[18:43:20] <> Let's see if I can work out what was going on before, shall we?
[18:47:13] <> I've been in here since 1970-01-01 01:00:00 if anyone need a back log.
[18:51:03] <> Oh, that's a shame, I don't actually understand the rsync incantations going on here.
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[19:28:27] <> https://wiki.mozilla.org/CloudServices/Presence#Overview -- i do wonder if they 'device level presence' is not presence in the sense used in xmpp
[19:28:33] <> but rather connectivity
[19:28:59] <> i.e. connecting to the xmpp server without sending initial presence
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[19:37:03] <> reading their text somehow makes you think, this already exists...but the term app-level, device-level are kind of not helping their explaination
[19:38:16] <> yeah. will post to the list about that
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[20:01:02] <> https://mail.mozilla.org/pipermail/wg-presence/2013-November/000150.html -- anyone disagreeing?
[20:02:28] <> :)
[20:03:17] <> I don't
[20:03:18] <> from what i gathered, the main objection is the strong single identity a jid provides. they want an identity per app, to prevent associating identities between apps
[20:06:04] <> hmm
[20:06:18] <> it would be good to understand the model they have in mind
[20:06:27] <> it would be good for them to understand their model :-)
[20:06:32] <> and maybe we can help with that
[20:06:33] <> they can rewrite the outgoing jid to be HMAC(appid+jid, mozillasecret)
[20:06:53] <> yeah, but we need to teach them the proper language ;-)
[20:07:08] <> at least we need to translate between our language and their language
[20:07:59] <> so you have that moz-presence and gecko-presence.....
[20:08:12] <> awww, we're the evil corporate standard. they have to obey to using our terminology
[20:09:01] <> FWIW, there are a number of things i am worried about wrt to xmpps standard presence model. having the same resource for everyone etc creates a number of problems
[20:09:08] <> but while nobody complains...
[20:10:01] <> same resource for everyone?
[20:10:50] <> say I am broadcasting my presence to stpeter. stpeter can tell you that i am online with resource /x -- when you can do stuff with my /x resource
[20:11:45] <> which might be considered a presence leak
[20:11:59] <> right
[20:12:04] <> my server might only allow communication with my /x resource from stpeter
[20:12:44] <> but he has subscribed to your presence...so you want different subscription levels? none, online/offline only (bare jid), full presence (full jid)
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[20:12:50] <> or something along those lines?
[20:12:53] <> fippo: are you saying that the same device might be called /x when you are talking with me but /y when you are talking with Tobias?
[20:14:37] <> stpeter: yes
[20:15:40] <> tobias: no... i don't want the full jid i gave stpeter to be used by you
[20:15:53] <> ahh
[20:15:56] <> interesting
[20:16:17] <> also in the case of directed presence
[20:16:21] <> wonder what the advantage/disadvantages would be
[20:16:23] <> That would solve the problem of ghosting room presence.
[20:16:36] <> my resource /x is only valid as long as we share directed presence
[20:16:42] <> (If the new resources are randomly generated)
[20:16:44] <> xnyhps: how?
[20:17:32] <> fippo: If the server sees me join a room as a new full JID, it won't confuse me with a previous session that might have died.
[20:17:33] <> http://vimeo.com/79820840 -- quite an interesting talk btw ;-)
[20:18:15] <> xnyhps: that assumes you set a static resource and don't get a new one when reconnecting anyway? point.
[20:18:23] <> where did the abstract version of it go?
[20:18:26] <> ^^
[20:19:17] <> fippo: Yeah, MattJ_ was arguing yesterday that clients should set any resource for this reason, that's why I thought of it.
[20:20:05] <> from yesterday's version of the mozilla wiki: https://wiki.mozilla.org/index.php?title=CloudServices/Presence&oldid=766337#Why_not_use_XMPP.3F
[20:20:12] <> Arguing implies that I might have been wrong. Let's say I was lecturing.
[20:20:14] <> yeah.. static resources are so 1999 ;-)
[20:20:43] <> fippo, how's this then? Yaxim is generating a random resource client-side :)
[20:21:04] <> prosody does it server side since swift doesn't ask for one
[20:21:14] <> prosody does it server side since swift doesn't specify one by default
[20:21:28] <> Swift has a config option for that?
[20:21:51] <> MattJ, just enter a full jid in the login field
[20:21:56] <> Ah
[20:22:07] <> sneakily hidden from novice users ;)
[20:22:08] <> xnyhps: Should our shouldn't?
[20:22:23] <> should not
[20:22:25] <> Shouldn't, sorry.
[20:22:34] <> Oh, that makes more sense :)
[20:23:45] <> the mozilla people have a point. an identity that is the same across services is bad for some usecases
[20:24:06] <> otoh, one identity that is the same across services is good for some usecases
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[20:28:32] <> So support both
[20:28:38] <> I only have a dozen JIDs...
[20:30:36] <> i think that's a "anonymize me" setting when subscribing to an app
[20:32:32] <> haha... entrenched in implementation details
[20:32:40] <> that almost calls for CPIM
[20:32:46] <> /me shudders
[20:32:56] <> that would be cruel of course
[20:33:33] <> I avoided making the "hmm, you may not be using the word presence properly" note in their IRC channel earlier
[20:33:44] <> instead linked them to the RFC
[20:34:35] <> which one is their irc channel? #presence on irc.mozilla.org seems rather empty...
[20:35:06] <> that is a typo on his part - it's #presence-wg
[20:38:00] <> security through typographical errors :-)
[20:38:42] <> heh, cloaking your room name is important -- unless you want people to join
[20:43:32] <> of course, at the same time they have persona which in the normal case* would present the same user id to all apps. *unless you run your own id server and purposefully generate a new user@host per app
[20:44:22] <> yeah I was wondering how this interacts with Persona
[20:46:12] <> knowing how internal Mozilla teams interact... it probably doesn't yet
[20:47:25] <> there are two very different team types at Mozilla: implement first, poorly document; document heavily, poorly implement
[20:47:39] <> :)
[20:47:45] <> /me said only partially tongue-in-cheek
[20:47:58] <> well, the XMPP community definitely fits in the second camp :P
[20:48:11] <> only because of you stpeter
[20:48:26] <> well, I shouldn't say that, because we do have some great implementations
[20:48:44] <> I tend to implement poorly, and never document.
[20:48:45] <> xmpp adds a third: implement many times, document some, drink beer and find out who wins
[20:48:48] <> But that’s only me.
[20:48:55] <> bear: :)
[20:49:21] <> /me starts looking at bears twitter feed
[20:49:30] <> :P
[20:49:58] <> I actually had a couple of folks try to call me that wed night - they were worried when my beer-per-hour metric was > 10
[20:50:22] <> heehee
[20:50:32] <> I had to explain what a bottle-share night's drink size is - shot glasses
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[21:57:42] <> btw: could we get synced logs back?
[22:00:05] <> http://logs.jabber.org/new/ referring to that here
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[23:06:44] <> is there a list of what default 115 capabilities are defined?
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[23:13:17] <> as in?
[23:13:38] <> mattj has corrected what I should have said :)
[23:13:49] <> ah, ok
[23:13:51] <> they were asking for xep 198 and I didn't make that connection
[23:14:09] <> they were asking about presence storms when it's a mobile device
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