Logs for jdev@conference.jabber.org

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[14:39:18] <> /me would like to come along to the XMPP summit - can someone provide me with wiki access to sign up?
[14:40:28] * naw left the chat.
[14:40:37] <> If no-one else replies, poke me in 10mins. Just a bit tied up Right Now.
[14:40:49] <> i can try -> pm
[14:41:03] <paulwitty> hi. i think i have abilities to do that :)
[14:41:10] <paulwitty> username + email?
[14:43:34] <> paulwitty, got my msg?
[14:43:49] <> Tobias: yes, and I've replied...
[14:44:06] <> strangely i haven't got a reply
[14:44:18] <> Kev, can't participants reply to mods?
[14:44:26] <> No.
[14:44:37] <> oh..i thought they just couldn't initiate chats
[14:44:40] <> paulwitty: Your client /should/ have told you the message was rejected.
[14:44:54] <> Unless something's going wrong somewhere.
[14:45:06] <> paulwitty, then you can either paste the info here or send it to my jid tm@ayena.de
[14:51:37] <> done
[14:53:18] <> Thanks.
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[15:07:41] <> Regarding the summit, is the hotel plan from Wednesday night?
[15:08:00] <> paulwitty: Isode people will be staying from the Wednesday, at least.
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[15:08:31] <> KevWalke: when are Isode people going to be arriving?
[15:08:34] <> bah
[15:08:35] <> Kev...
[15:09:19] <> I might take advantage of some time with you guys if there is any
[15:09:44] <> paulwitty: Moving over to PM.
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[18:03:45] <> I all, I had a brilliant idea while at the toilet and want to share it here.
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[18:12:58] <> marius: Did you go back to get more brilliant ideas?
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[18:13:15] <> LOL
[18:14:40] <> waqas: I go about twice a day so I can bring some lol.
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[18:14:56] <> So what was it?
[18:15:12] <> I read about ideas of microblogging over XMPP, but I saw the idea is kind of stagnated.
[18:15:30] <> I was thinking of microblogging over XMPP via DHT.
[18:15:35] <> if that makes sense...
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[18:17:25] <> marius: sure it does, many people are doing this or have done this before
[18:17:54] <> Alex: so I am not thinking of anything new... lol
[18:18:06] <> But the thing is... is there any proposed XEP about that?
[18:18:09] <> I could not find any
[18:18:17] <> microblogging is just a type of presence model, or PEP, Pubsub
[18:18:17] <> and making it a standard would be good.
[18:18:38] <> The idea of DHT is more for leveraging the servers
[18:19:19] <> So what exactly is writing to the DHT?
[18:19:40] <> Is this a client-client DHT, or a server-server one with clients connecting to it through servers?
[18:19:41] <> Searches for example.
[18:19:50] <> I think it can be mixed.
[18:20:01] <> The best model would have to be evaluated.
[18:20:06] <> And is this one DHT for the whole federated XMPP network?
[18:20:19] <> DHT?
[18:20:27] <> bear: Distributed hash table
[18:20:28] <> waqas: I imagine.
[18:21:21] <> I wonder how solved the problem of spamming is in DHTs. If I as an attacker just flood it with a bazillion gigs of data...
[18:21:44] <> that is what I thought of too waqas.
[18:22:07] <> That is why the servers could be the nodes.
[18:22:28] <> Specific servers owning the data of their own users is more controllable in terms of spam, etc
[18:22:29] <> But there must be other ways to about flooding attacks and spam.
[18:22:38] <> Which is how XMPP has traditionally done things
[18:23:06] <> The current microblogging spec has kind of hit a dead-end, so that's something which needs to be worked on
[18:23:06] <> The DHT would actually be more for the searches.
[18:23:42] <> Searches, now that makes things complex. You are starting with the assumption that microblogs are all public.
[18:23:59] <> waqas: That's what everyone else assumes.
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[18:29:58] <> why aren't my messages arriving. :S
[18:30:01] <> For the most people it is. Think that for the vast majority, they only know of Twitter.
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[18:30:47] <> I have no idea why your messages aren't arriving.
[18:31:08] <> If certain microblogs are to be private, sure the servers can have privacy lists or such.
[18:32:04] <> Private by default is probably better, and already how XMPP works.
[18:34:39] <> Agree Zash.
[18:35:12] <> So the DHT is not the main datastore for the microblog data, only a search index
[18:35:39] <> The means for the server to send search queries.
[18:36:03] <> Now, has there been any existing work on such a DHT where malicious nodes can't do search-engine spamming?
[18:36:25] <> waqas: Go play with the BitTorrent DHT :)
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[18:46:01] <> Lets see what implementations exist and how they avoid abusers.
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[18:52:52] <> I'm not clear on what the DHT stores, and why it needs to be a DHT.
[18:53:31] <> If you're about later, I wouldn't mind discussing that.
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[18:56:30] <> dwd: For global search, you kind of need a global index
[18:57:01] <> Running the search on individual servers wont scale for global searches
[18:57:18] <> Haven't you heard, block chains are the new hotness
[18:57:41] <> Block chains solves all problems!!
[18:57:59] <> It took me 24+ hours to sync the full block chain, and that's with downloading most of it via a torrent in an hour
[18:58:22] <> Aaaall problems!!!!11one
[18:58:27] <> Block chain indexing (at least as currently implemented in the official client) is very inefficient and I/O intensive
[18:58:28] <> Especially for low-powered mobile devices!
[18:59:00] <> I doubt any of the mobile clients actually pull the whole blockchain. It's about 10GB at the moment.
[18:59:24] <> just compress it with bloom filters
[18:59:27] <> ^^
[18:59:41] <> To be serious, what are those distributed search things doing?
[18:59:55] <> YaCy and whatstheirnames
[19:00:13] <> IIRC gnutella's search didn't scale that well
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[19:49:02] <> Tobias, You can't compress with bloom filters, they're a method of eliding expensive lookups.
[19:49:26] <> i was just joking aroud
[19:49:28] <> i was just joking around
[19:50:42] <> waqas, OK, so we could run a DHT to have a global index, but the problem with that is that you effectively have a single distributed search index - it's not clear to me how that's better done as a public morass of hopefully-good actors as compared to a specialist search provider (A Google of XMPP µblogs, if you will)
[19:54:32] <> dwd, seen https://whispersystems.org/blog/contact-discovery/ ?
[19:55:24] <> dwd: Indeed, a Google is the other way to do this. Heck Google can do it if you just have the servers make the content available over HTTP (with indexing delays, etc).
[19:59:07] <> My understanding of DHTs is that you expect that you have a sufficient number of good actors that bad actors are both detectable through redundancy and a rare case.
[20:03:47] <> Well, a global DHT would have an issue: data set size
[20:04:10] <> You can't randomly delete data from it, all data sticks around, yes? Unless you clear out stale data
[20:04:33] <> So an attacker can happily flood it with useless data
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[21:07:55] <> "The average Android user has approximately 5000 contacts synced to their device." wat
[21:11:43] <> I think one Robin Dunbar would like to have a word with them.
[21:12:46] <> Almost as many as psa!
[21:13:49] <> Well, I assume that's every person who you sent or received an email from
[21:15:09] <> Which makes 5000 not seem to farfetched
[21:15:22] <> (hopefully google don't include spam emails in that)
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[21:17:57] <> But spammers are your friends too!
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[21:22:04] <> Indeed, they send me far more emails than my real friends
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[21:46:45] <> waqas, I'm sorry, I'll send you more emails
[21:50:20] <> MattJ: Don't panic, I have helped address the situation.
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[21:51:06] <> I can only infer that you've solved the problem of spam
[21:51:13] <> and are about to become a millionaire
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[22:42:32] <> The Final and Ultimate Solution to Spam!
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