Logs for email@example.com
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[09:54:47] <> A thing I learned for BOSH and prosody over the weekend is the "consider_bosh_secure" setting.
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[10:09:56] <> ralphm, Ah, interesting. I think M-Link expects to terminate any TLS itself, for instance - in part to support X.509 authentication.
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[10:10:37] <> That's not great for adding dynamic things like https://display.ik.nu/
[10:11:07] <> I have it expose BOSH at /http-bind
[10:11:27] <> But it connects to anon.ik.nu to 'log in'
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[10:12:16] <> dwd: so I manage TLS with the proxy in front of Prosody (in this case Apache).
[10:13:28] <> Right, which makes sense.
[10:14:29] <> dwd: is there a config for whitelisting domain you want to not force encryption on in prosody? I know the setting for whitelisting
domains with non-validating certs, but that's not it.
[10:15:11] <> ralphm, Pass. I think there is, but I don't know it. I could help you in M-Link, still.
[10:15:26] <> heh
[10:16:11] <> ralphm, FWIW, M-Link lets you specify what certificate is sufficient for a domain, so you can do a kind of manual pinning.
[10:16:47] <> sure, but for now I don't check certs, just require tls
[10:17:08] <> Which will be quite enough for the forseeable future.
[10:17:30] <> I wanted to whitelist those domains I know are currently hosted at Google.
[10:18:24] <> I was thinking about this over Christmas (alongside various other XMPP-dev related tasks). I wondered about a server which
maintained a list of all known domains, and recorded the highest grade security it had been able to achieve - so no TLS, db/TLS,
X.509/TLS - and wouldn't accept a downgrade.
[10:19:28] <> that's a brilliant idea
[10:19:41] <> I thought one could run such a server for a certain initial period, then switch on a minimally acceptable security grade for
new domains - so older domains previously "seen" to be insecure would remain available.
[10:19:43] <> provided that non-validating certs are reported to the admin
[10:20:04] <> Well, the slinky management UI would allow you to list such domains, right?
[10:20:15] <> I suppose so
[10:20:44] <> but it'd be nice to get a warning about a domain that has an expired cert to alert them and possibly your own users
[10:20:51] <> I also had the interesting idea of building an XMPP server using a distributed ACAP server as a data store. But I'm guessing
you find that less interesting. :-)
[10:20:52] <> 'cause from that point on you'd not connect
[10:21:01] <> ehem
[10:24:04] <> ACAP, you see, has the concept of a "context", which is a constantly updating search - so you basically have a pubsub-orientated
data store. It's also heirarchical, which ought to make user management simpler.
[10:24:19] <> Right.
[10:24:29] <> Also, I wrote an ACAP server years ago, and it'd be fun to dust it down and reuse it. :-)
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[10:33:42] <> I was a bit surprised about corp.jabber.com not working.
[10:33:49] <> I get 'undefined-condition' there.
[10:34:18] <> instead of 'Encrypted server-to-server communication is required but was not offerred'.
[10:35:37] <> I found error reporting in general to be very iffy.
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[12:11:01] <> Zash: is there a way to white list domains to allow non-encrypted s2s in Prosody?
[12:11:14] <> No
[12:11:18] <> :-(
[12:11:27] <> :(
[12:11:28] <> Not unless you write very simple plugin.
[12:12:01] <> Zash: you mean you, right?
[12:12:02] <> a
[12:13:26] <> :(
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[12:14:14] <> Zash: I also liked dwd's suggestion above, but a simple whitelist should do. That way I could just keep requiring TLS but
exclude the domains by google.
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[12:14:37] <> What'd dwd suggest?
[12:14:44] <> Zash, Something brilliant.
[12:14:56] <> Require encryption if the host did it once?
[12:15:07] <> Basically.
[12:15:18] <> Also, use ACAP.
[12:15:19] <> Yeah, I want that too.
[12:15:25] <> Heh
[12:15:35] <> Zash, Wait, you want ACAP too? Awesome!
[12:16:03] <> This is where the In-Reply-To header would have been useful :/
[12:16:40] <> dwd, but from what I've heard, ACAP is one of those things that's too good for people to use it.
[12:17:18] <> Zash, ACAP was a "Hey, but we could also!" technology.
[12:17:56] <> Slap a HTTP+JSON interface on it and pretend it's new
[12:18:33] <> I was thinking almost exactly that, actually. :-)
[12:18:57] <> Anyways, a plugin that enforces a non-downgradeable path from unencrypted → unauthenticated encryption → authenticated encryption
has been on my todo for some time :)
[12:19:35] <> Zash: do the whitelist, release, work from there :-D
[12:20:12] <> Zash, See? My ideas are so good people have often had them years before.
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[14:31:30] <> hey jabberjocke, are you aware of anyone playing with Zigbee Light Link devices, like the Hue?
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[15:03:42] <> not zigbee steffen is doing some z-wave
[15:04:34] <> I read that, yeah.
[15:06:51] <> isn't that a proprietary protocol?
[15:08:15] <> y tu voz?
[15:09:54] <> i would argue that zigbee is the same, you need to pay huge memberfee to particpate nd influence
[15:10:28] <> jabberjocke: sure, but at least you don't have to depend on a single vendor for your chips
[15:11:23] <> Someone I know was playing with 6lowpan, but there's less hardware available
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[15:13:32] <> we are doing 6lowpan with http://sics.se and contiki os
[15:14:08] <> http://so-ip.se/
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[15:17:08] <> Apparently there now is "Zigbee IP" that builds on 6lowpan
[15:20:08] <> I think that is the only way for them to survive. in the end everything will be IP on transport pushing all old protocols
[15:21:18] <> indeed
[15:21:37] <> it helps zigbee that it is pretty flexible to be able to accomodate this, probably
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[15:28:10] <> but it will probably be compatibility issues between old zigbee and zigbee IP
[15:29:29] <> Will try and bring pure 6LoWPAN devices to the summit
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[15:29:37] <> ralphm, "builds on" ?
[15:29:44] <> contiki_os
[15:29:55] <> arm chips
[15:31:56] <> Mmmmm... Chips.
[15:32:16] <> Zash: layers
[15:32:50] <> ralphm: As opposed to "extends in incompatible and proprietary ways"
[15:35:21] <> well, I haven't looked into it in detail
[15:35:32] <> but their faq mentions the ietf even
[15:36:01] <> It would be fun if somebody did a xep_323 implementaion towards a zigbee device
[15:38:49] <> jabberjocke: I'm expecting a Hue starter kick in the coming weeks
[15:39:15] <> jabberjocke: if it comes in, I might build something on top of the HTTP API of the hub that it comes with.
[15:44:17] <> That would be really fun you could start with the sleekXMPP code I have on github and do the restcalls from python
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[15:46:07] <> jabberjocke: hahahaha
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[15:59:21] <> ralphm: I'lle hold your hand ;)
[15:59:47] <> jabberjocke: I'll likely extend Wokkel, but thanks for the offer.
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[16:12:32] <> aaah cool http://wokkel.ik.nu will be a good interop test btetween us then
[16:12:56] <> jabberjocke: you didn't know about Wokkel or my involvement in it?
[16:13:26] <> caught me there :)
[16:16:56] <> :-D
[16:21:23] <> guess you need to hold my hand regarding python :)
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[16:22:04] <> hah
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[16:24:27] <> Does anybody know if the Psi++ developers have a MUC room?
[16:25:39] <> Alex, firstname.lastname@example.org
[16:25:52] <> if you mean Psi+
[16:26:03] <> Psi++ is Swift, no?
[16:26:05] <> ;P
[16:26:09] <> Tobias: thanks
[16:26:14] <> Zash, sure
[16:26:16] <> Zash: :D
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[16:27:02] <> I need multi account support which is not in Swift yet
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[16:28:06] <> and psi+ is really nice, except of some very annoying bugs I wanna report them
[16:29:44] <> is psi+ better than miranda?
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[16:31:17] <> no idea, I don't like the 500 plugin in miranda, takes to much time until its configured, or are there preconfigured packages?
[16:31:41] <> waqas, are there?
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[16:36:20] <> it has some default configration but its upon you to change it
[16:42:03] <> miranda NG is far better than Miranda IM
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[16:42:40] <> aman: OK, I will check it out
[16:42:55] <> Tobias: Yes, there are pre-configured packages random people have put up. MattJ used to have one.
[16:43:20] <> Tobias: And no, if you want to use a pre-configured package and don't want to customise, why are you using Miranda in the
first place? :)
[16:43:53] <> Speed, light weight, and customisability are the only things Miranda has to offer
[16:45:12] <> Is it particularly fast compared to other clients? (By which I obviously mean Swift - I spent some time optimising that roster
code for Peter's roster)
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[16:50:02] <> nothing is swifter than Swift, naturally ;-)
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[16:58:43] <> Kev: Yes, it is fast and light. As in no other clients come close in terms of CPU usage, including Swift. Swift is super-bloated
in comparison, going so far as to use WebKit :)
[16:58:56] <> CPU and RAM usage that is
[16:59:07] <> Yeah, webkit is a nuisance for performance. Although it shouldn't hurt in normal use.
[16:59:51] <> It's fully plugin based, and features like popup notifications or avatars in contact list are missing by default because that's
bloat. You have to install plugins to get those :)
[17:00:40] <> /me saidly isn't covered by normal use :9
[17:00:41] <> /me saidly isn't covered by normal use :)
[17:00:56] <> Assuming that you have the plugins you need to make a normal client out of it, is login on large rosters stil faster?
[17:01:04] <> Because if so, I need to do more tuning.
[17:01:38] <> Kev: Very likely. Even the contact list is a plugin, and the default contact list plugin is super barebones :)
[17:02:25] <> The bad thing about Miranda is it doesn't do some things async that it should, e.g., I have noticed MUC floods freezing it
for a bit. May be specific to the more visually pleasing message UI plugin I was using :)
[17:03:31] <> i havnt seen MUC floods freeze miranda
[17:03:35] <> You have to realise about Miranda that everything except the plugin-loading part is a plugin. Contact list. Message view.
Disk storage backend. Protocol support. Everything.
[17:03:42] <> i believe it is best for watching flood
[17:03:50] <> aman: Probably my bloated message view plugin then
[17:04:06] <> I do like things looking a bit pretty :)
[17:04:57] <> i hav been using miranda since 3 year on nimbuzz
[17:05:23] <> and had seen flood day and night, other application crashes but miranda doesnt
[17:05:53] <> I used to use it when I was mainly using Windows, which I'm not right now. As did MattJ. It was my preferred client because
you can customise it to be perfect for yourself :)
[17:06:02] <> waqas: That's why I qualified it with 'assuming that you added the plugins to make it a normal client'.
[17:06:33] <> Yep, it's largely useless for me unless I go to the effort to customise
[17:06:37] <> I realise some unsorted, ungrouped roster with no status rendering and no avatars is going to be easily faster than what's
in a normal client :)
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[17:07:20] <> You do get roster sorting and groups, it does those quite nicely
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[17:21:18] <> on Miranda NG now, not bad ;-)
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[17:22:07] <> :)
[17:23:06] <> is there a way to sort contacts by account. SO that I know which contact belows to which account?
[17:23:32] <> and have to figure out how to send messages with the return key, too many options ;-)
[17:24:54] <> Alex: There's probably an option for that, just as there is an option for everything :)
[17:24:57] <> click on option>> customize>> hotkeys >> message windows -all
[17:25:16] <> and edit send message, put enter key
[17:25:44] <> found the enter send message now
[17:26:46] <> Alex: :-)
[17:27:05] <> Alex: Why are you setting up Miranda? :)
[17:27:58] <> Because I still have not found the perfect client in the last 13 years I use XMPP daily on Windows ;-)
[17:28:29] <> It's highly subjective, but Miranda was the closest I've been to the perfect client
[17:28:37] <> It required months of tweaking to get there though
[17:30:47] <> Alex: Patches welcome ;)
[17:31:11] <> (Seriously, I'd like to know about deficiencies that Swift has)
[17:32:11] <> I haven't tried using Swift in a while, and never on a mac, I'll test it out again.
[17:33:31] <> Kev, he mentioned one, official multi-account support
[17:33:49] <> Kev: multiple accounts and good chat history, thats the most important for me normally
[17:35:08] <> Noted, thanks.
[17:37:03] <> And a policy-aware security label editor.
[17:38:08] <> You don't want that in the client, that's what SLS is for :)
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[17:41:40] <stpeter> Thanks Peter!
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[17:43:14] <> Question, this page is up to date https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comparison_of_XMPP_server_software ?
[17:43:36] <> No
[17:43:41] <> Not for years afaik
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[17:44:20] <> the only thing missing in the table https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comparison_of_XMPP_server_software#Comparison_by_XEP_implementation_status
is a column wise sum of "yes" fields at the bottom ^^
[17:44:21] <> If one guy can see ;)
[17:44:30] <> And features and protocols are not the same thing.
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[17:45:25] <> Should that page even exist? The data is almost misleading
[17:45:51] <> Eyeball XMPP server?
[17:46:01] <> never heard of that
[17:46:08] <> who would be so cruel
[17:46:27] <> Tobias: http://www.eyeballimserver.com/
[17:46:57] <> "Eyeballʼs XZMPP Server"
[17:47:12] <> Guarantees Scalability...no Guarantees Security? :/
[17:48:33] <> waqas: I think the page is positively unhelpful.
[17:48:51] <> I think we would be better off with it going away.
[17:48:51] <> how is that positive?
[17:48:59] <> It also probably is in violation of wikipedia's guidelines
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[17:49:18] <> ralphm: Positive doesn't mean good.
[17:49:43] <> ralphm: Positively unhelpful -> it has a greater-than-zero amount of unhelpfulness.
[17:50:30] <> It's also wrong. Particularly those servers claiming to support both 3921 and 6121.
[17:50:52] <> Unless those servers have some sort of please-work-in-3921 config flag, and I'm not convinced.
[17:51:47] <> Prosody was following the bis drafts and then 612* from the very beginning
[17:52:09] <> I just added Yes for those, but I would rather the page not exist :)
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[17:53:09] <> Eyeball says "IM Server supports UDP, TCP, and secure TLS transport for XMPP messaging." - UDP??
[17:53:23] <> UDP!
[17:54:18] <> no SCTP and X.###?
[17:54:39] <Tobias> wie war nochmal der Psi+ chat room?
[17:55:19] <> dwd: They mention jingle support of some sort
[17:55:31] <> Tobias, Gosh. A year on from Isode and I can't recall the right number of X.###
[17:55:40] <Alex> email@example.com
[17:55:47] <Tobias> danke ;-)
[17:56:05] <> Someone added the eyeball column in August 2013 from an IP
[17:56:25] <> waqas, does an IP in that IPs subnet run a XMPP service? :)
[17:57:08] <> Tobias: Check it out yourself: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Contributions/188.8.131.52
[17:57:37] <> nah...i'm forbidden by law to use such tools ^^
[17:58:20] <> It's funny, I don't think that person knows much about XMPP, it says private XML=Yes, Bookmarks=Unknown.
[17:58:45] <> heh
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[17:59:56] <> weird, normally the Wikipedia guys are very strict about such contributions
[18:00:13] <> Interesting. Eyeball also promise "100% NAT Traversal"
[18:01:01] <> they promise neary everything, there colums is all green on this chart ;-)
[18:01:18] <> All the things!
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[18:04:22] <> waqas: Which is fair, as bookmarks isn't a server feature.
[18:05:38] <> ;; QUESTION SECTION:
;_xmpp-server._tcp.eyeball.com. IN SRV
;; ANSWER SECTION:
_xmpp-server._tcp.eyeball.com. 7200 IN SRV 20 0 5269 alt2.xmpp-server.l.google.com.
_xmpp-server._tcp.eyeball.com. 7200 IN SRV 20 0 5269 alt3.xmpp-server.l.google.com.
_xmpp-server._tcp.eyeball.com. 7200 IN SRV 20 0 5269 alt1.xmpp-server.l.google.com.
_xmpp-server._tcp.eyeball.com. 7200 IN SRV 20 0 5269 alt4.xmpp-server.l.google.com.
_xmpp-server._tcp.eyeball.com. 7200 IN SRV 5 0 5269 xmpp-server.l.google.com.
[18:05:59] <> :-D
[18:06:06] <> dwd, _xmpp-client tho
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[18:06:35] <> Zash, Ah, yes - xmpp-client has a single record.
[18:08:22] <> I was going to run it past xmpp.net, but I saw someone already had.
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[18:12:11] <> That reminds me, the server directory on xmpp.net needs to be cleared of servers with expired certs, etc
[18:12:37] <> Kev, Tobias, is not Remko part of XSF? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/XMPP_Standards_Foundation
[18:12:48] <> https://xmpp.net/directory.php - Far too many F's on that page
[18:13:18] <> Darlan: Yes, but that page doesn't list XSF members.
[18:13:27] <> Darlan, XSF member yes, council/board i don't think so
[18:14:23] <> Please forward my PM message to Philipp Hancke and other Board of Directors that are not here.
[18:14:30] <> Do none of the board or council have wikipedia pages of their own? :)
[18:14:55] <> Or board and council is not notable I guess :)
[18:15:01] <> I just sent messages to some of them to do just that ;-)
[18:15:42] <> It is a good opportunity to promote oneself by having an own Wikipedia entry.
[18:16:00] <> Does Dave Cridland not have a Wikipedia page?
[18:16:11] <> Kev sure has one, but it's a different kev ^^
[18:16:49] <> Dis anyone receive a PM from me? Gajim indicate that no.
[18:17:04] <> Did anyone receive a PM from me? Gajim indicate that no.
[18:19:00] * Tobias left the chat.
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[18:24:23] <> Maybe not everyone wants a wikipedia page about themselves? :)
[18:25:32] <> I have no interest in having my own Wikipedia page at all.
[18:25:44] <> Sure, I do not want one but if I would have such an opportunity as you have, I certainly would tend to write one.
[18:26:07] <> I somebody finds me notable, I'm sure eventually a page will get created.
[18:26:18] <> I don't think we do have an opportunity, I don't think we're particularly notable as individuals.
[18:26:31] <> Or I'm not, anyway.
[18:26:32] <> ... yet
[18:26:42] <> except MattJ and his 4 arms
[18:26:46] <> Kev: maybe when you die
[18:27:09] <> I firmly think Wikipedia.org is crap and id far from being an objective or trustworthy source, to say the least. Wikimedia
(Software) is a good project.
[18:27:10] <> I hope not to see my posthumous wikipedia page for some time (sic).
[18:27:16] <> mathieui, I once won an arms race
[18:27:57] <> My stance is that Wikipedia is run mostly by humans, and as such is just as trustworthy as any other human-curated medium.
[18:28:13] <> Like, say, "peer-reviewed" journals.
[18:30:08] <> ralphm: :-)
[18:30:12] <> I'd say it's better in that edits happen visibly, and you can investigate and update
[18:30:22] <> Which is very much unlike most peer reviered journals
[18:30:36] <> And that the world is a much better place with Wikipedia than without :)
[18:30:45] <> arguably, papers published in journals don't change much afterwards
[18:31:02] <> >My stance is that Wikipedia is run mostly by humans, and as such is just as trustworthy as any other human-curated medium.
The masses are so damn stupid that even when they have a good opportunity to change anything, most of them would not think
of how or would not operate in a proper manner to bring about a better change, let alone that the fact that Wikipedia is tend
to become, by idiot masses, a centralized source for information (not references) makes the humans who participate in it stupid
[18:31:18] <> waqas: agreed on Wikipedia being incredibly useful, despite its flaws
[18:32:00] <> ralphm: After what, though? They typically change significantly prior to publication, at the whim or political interest of
whoever is reviewing them.
[18:32:14] <> Darlan: how many of those are friends or family of yours, and do you really want to call them such names?
[18:32:26] <> ODP - Open Directory Project <http://www.dmoz.org/> (the real thing).
[18:33:23] <> Kev: that whole journal thing is sick to the core, much worse than wikipedia.
[18:33:23] <> I use wikipedia. I never thought of myself as stupid because of it.
[18:33:51] <> ralphm: Yes, wikipedia is a shining example of openness in comparison.
[18:33:59] <> ralphm, of course not, I participate too when I want to promote things, but it seems that most are focused _only_ at Wikipedia.org
instead of focusing on several potential platforms.
[18:34:15] <> Kev: and with that, most academia
[18:35:32] <> I might quibble with academia being rotten to the core. I wouldn't quibble with academia not usually being terribly open (at
least in large part because it revolves around such publications).
[18:35:43] <> I think it is not good if most would tend to solely rely on Wikpedia.org as a first reference source for information, let
alone would claim it is, like some lectures of mine.
[18:36:01] <> Kev: have you worked at, besides studied at, a university?
[18:36:14] <> After a fashion.
[18:36:27] <> But for now, I'm off to fail to speak Welsh at people. BBL :)
[18:37:33] <> I just noticed that there is no wikipedia hebrew entry for Gajim :-P
[18:37:41] <> Darlan: And the better alternative is?
[18:37:41] <> Darlan: well, this is not unexpected. People also usually read a single news paper, turn on the same channels, etc. You may
think that's bad, and I can go a long way with that argument, but consider that most people have other things on their mind
than going out to find fair and balanced information, in general.
[18:38:41] <> waqas, parallel project in different formats, such as ODP - Open Directory Project <http://www.dmoz.org/> which should really
have gotten more attention, but sadly it did not.
[18:38:50] <> Kev: I worked in university for 3 years, as a scientific programmer, assisting PhDs an professors. Much desillusion.
[18:39:17] <> Darlan: ODP is an internet directory, not an encyclopedia
[18:40:07] <> ralphm, I tend to agree with you, yet I still have some arguments of mine that would require some time to discuss about.
[18:40:46] <> Come to Brussels, we can do this over beer.
[18:41:10] <> ODP is a reference platform and so is wikipedia, and I meant to write "parallel projectS in different formats".
[18:41:17] <> ralphm: Whoever can hold the most beer wins the argument?
[18:41:43] <> ralphm, hopefully in next couple of years ^_^
[18:41:58] <> Darlan: why wait years?
[18:42:08] <> This is the moment, man
[18:43:31] <> I have a lot of important issues to deal with already - mainly getting out while having some income generating assets.
[18:43:46] <> I have a lot of important issues to deal with already - mainly getting out _of here_ while having some income generating assets.
[18:45:32] <> And family members to take care of, which is the hardest part as they are unexpected in the long term.
[18:45:51] <> Darlan: where is "here"?
[18:46:01] <> Israel
[18:46:06] <> ah, ok
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[20:41:39] <Neustradamus> sure thing!
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