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[03:36:34] <duck1123> do all the standard auth mechanisms for xmpp require that I have a cleartext password on the server?
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[04:24:39] <darkrain> No. Neither PLAIN nor SCRAM-* require that.
[04:24:59] <darkrain> Even DIGEST-MD5 (which was part of the original XMPP RFC) didn't require it.
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[07:11:38] <psa> Kev: there is no longer "Draft Standard" at the IETF
[07:11:57] <psa> see http://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc6410
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[16:27:47] <Kev> MattJ: I fell that, somehow, you're mocking me.
[16:28:28] <MattJ> No idea what gave you that impression
[16:28:37] <MattJ> *smirk*
[16:28:38] <Kev> I also feel it.
[16:29:13] <MattJ> You can't necessarily help being unable to drive a computer successfully today
[16:29:38] <Kev> I can't.
[16:29:46] <Kev> I wore myself out, several months ago, with my XSF reapplication.
[16:29:56] <MattJ> See, I know better
[16:30:02] <MattJ> I'm hiring Dave to write mine for me
[16:30:08] <Kev> He told me.
[16:30:14] <Kev> He's quite looking forward to it.
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[16:33:29] <MattJ> Ok ok, done the minimal required - copy/pasted last year's application
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[18:13:10] <lurscher@jabber.org> hi
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[18:13:15] <mathieui> hi
[18:13:56] <lurscher@jabber.org> i'm new here - is it acceptable to do questions regarding xmpp libraries and services?
[18:14:08] <ralphm> absolutely
[18:14:11] <lurscher@jabber.org> cool :)
[18:14:45] <lurscher@jabber.org> so, basically i'm trying to create an open source client for nimbuzz chat - i've added a question on stackoverflow regarding this - http://stackoverflow.com/questions/9742016/connecting-to-nimbuzz-chat-with-opensource-xmpp-library
[18:15:15] <lurscher@jabber.org> maybe i can learn more about this stuff in here, or maybe someone has any idea that might help me
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[18:27:45] <ralphm> lurscher@jabber.org: I don't know much about Nimbuzz, but I think you should be able to connect to it with any XMPP client.
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[22:47:58] <Jon> From what I have gathered from http://xmpp.org/rfcs/rfc3923.html - and please correct me if I'm wrong - clients implementing the signing and encryption mentioned in that RFC3923 has be an S/MIME agent, which in turn requires that certificates are checked against CAs and CRLs. However, the chat client software that I want to build should rely on self-signed and temporary certificates and keys, generated on-demand during every chat session. Do you recommend me to skip that part of the standard or do something different than RFC3923 all-together? Thanks.
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[22:48:33] <psa> Jon: have you looked at OTR?
[22:48:53] <psa> Jon: we don't recommend that people implement RFC 3923
[22:49:12] <psa> there's some work happening at the IETF to perhaps replace RFC 3923
[22:49:24] <psa> or, many implementations use OTR
[22:51:30] <Jon> Thank you, psa. That's interesting. It's on my Todo list to continue to look into OTR, but I was told there were some limitations with OTR in regards to XMPP.
[22:52:10] <psa> Jon: everything has limitations :)
[22:52:28] <psa> Jon: the main problem is that we can't send full stanzas over OTRv2 or OTRv3
[22:52:31] <Jon> I will need to send encrypted message, presence and IQ stanzas. Does OTR support that?
[22:52:44] <Jon> Aha. Why not?
[22:52:52] <psa> so we'd need to work with the OTR team to develop OTRv4
[22:53:21] <Jon> That's interesting.
[22:53:24] <psa> OTR was designed to work on encryption only of plaintext message bodies for legacy IM services like AIM and Yahoo
[22:53:38] <psa> so OTR doesn't know anything about XMPP
[22:53:43] <psa> we'd need to jabberize it
[22:54:00] <psa> so that you could any XMPP XML into the payload
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[22:56:28] <Jon> Is someone from here in touch with the OTR project?
[22:57:40] <psa> I am
[22:58:08] <psa> I started to work with them on an Internet-Draft to document OTRv2 but various obstacles got in the way
[22:58:17] <psa> I'll contact them again in the next week or two
[22:58:28] <psa> I'm kind of busy this week at the IETF meeting in Paris
[23:01:28] <Jon> I see. Is OTR flexible in terms of what algorithms that are used? Also, does OTR require the user to do anything specific? (Ease-of-use is important to me.)
[23:02:23] <psa> Jon: you can test it out in Adium and Pidgin (and perhaps a few others)
[23:02:39] <Jon> If OTR4 meet my requirements, I might implement a JavaScript implementation draft of it.
[23:02:58] <psa> cool
[23:03:54] <psa> Jon: another approach is emerging at the IETF, see https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-miller-xmpp-e2e/
[23:03:56] <Jon> Making a end-to-end secure XMPP-based messenger that is easy to use is my number one priority.
[23:03:56] <Jon> May I add you to my contact list?
[23:04:37] <psa> Jon: my primary account is stpeter@jabber.org, but I hang out here most of the time so this is a good place to chat
[23:05:43] <Jon> Ah, sure, whatever you prefer. :)
[23:05:56] <Jon> I'll add you just in case.
[23:06:00] <psa> Jon: we've had many different approaches to end-to-end encryption
[23:06:27] <psa> PGP, S/MIME, ESessions, etc.
[23:06:35] <psa> IMHO, OTR has been the most successful
[23:06:45] <Jon> Yeah, I saw Dirk's work on XTLS as well.
[23:07:15] <psa> right
[23:07:21] <psa> forgot about that one ;-)
[23:08:06] <Jon> I was working a little bit on XPMN [ http://bit.ly/cLxqjt ] for a while, but the project got too big.
[23:08:20] <psa> Matt Miller thinks that some requirements aren't met by OTR so we need to define a kind of successor to RFC 3923
[23:08:26] <psa> I'm not fully convinced yet :)
[23:08:27] <Jon> That's when I decided to focus on a smaller task. Hence, the easy-to-use secure chat. :)
[23:09:23] <Jon> I see. It would be good to know exactly what those requirements are so that we can bring that up for OTRv4. :)
[23:10:25] <psa> Jon: mostly, I think the ability to communicate between multiple devices connected to each account (a.k.a. multi-resource scenarios)
[23:10:39] <Jon> For me, I don't want to get to wrapped up in standards, but rather just focus on getting the job done. I need to be a little more pragmatic this time around. :)
[23:11:39] <Jon> But of course, I'm happy to help whenever I have the time to do so.
[23:11:39] <Jon> Ah, right, I heard about that.
[23:12:19] <Jon> Thanks for your ideas, they helped me a lot. It's a jungle with all these standards, being new to them. ;)
[23:12:26] <psa> oh for sure
[23:13:00] <psa> Jon: in my humble opinion, OTR would be a great place to start, and I seem to recall someone on the otrdev list talking about a JS implementation
[23:13:19] <psa> but you'd need to wait for us to collaborate with the OTR folks on v4
[23:13:31] <psa> it's either that or look at Matt's work at the IETF
[23:13:38] <Jon> http://marc.info/?l=otr-dev&m=126955061223923&w=2 ?
[23:13:40] <psa> he's very interested in a JS implementation
[23:14:08] <psa> there's work starting at the W3C on a brand new crypto API for browsers
[23:14:46] <psa> I was talking with the guy in charge of the W3C effort at dinner this evening
[23:15:10] <Jon> Wow, what a coincidence. :)
[23:15:48] <psa> not really :)
[23:16:06] <Jon> Haha, small world?
[23:16:23] <psa> well, he's at the IETF meeting here in Paris
[23:16:45] <psa> and I was one of the people pushing for a better crypto API
[23:17:03] <psa> lots of chats about it at the W3C meeting last fall
[23:18:33] <Jon> I see.
[23:19:32] <Jon> Is Matt Miller on this chat as well?
[23:19:41] <psa> sometimes
[23:19:44] <psa> not as often
[23:19:48] <psa> he's in Paris this week, too
[23:20:09] <psa> in fact we'll have an XMPP WG session on Wednesday
[23:20:15] <Jon> Do you have a link or something to his IETF work?
[23:20:31] <psa> I suppose I'll send an email about that or blog it at xmpp.org
[23:20:47] <psa> see URL pasted above
[23:20:49] <psa> i.e., https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-miller-xmpp-e2e/
[23:21:07] <Jon> Oh, missed that one. Thanks.
[23:21:24] <psa> no problem!
[23:21:43] <Jon> Ah, I also happened to miss this one when I Googled. I thought it was the "draft-meyer" one. :P
[23:21:47] <Jon> (XTLS)
[23:21:55] <psa> right
[23:21:57] <Jon> I'll check it out.
[23:22:03] <psa> Miller, Meyer, whatever :)
[23:22:09] <Jon> :)
[23:23:44] <Jon> Nice document! Includes key requests and everything!
[23:24:32] <Jon> Easy to follow too.
[23:24:37] <psa> heh
[23:24:51] <psa> I think Matt might have an experimental implementation
[23:28:17] <psa> brb
[23:29:28] <Jon> From where I am standing now, eager to get started, this looks exactly like what I want.
[23:39:48] <psa> cool
[23:39:58] <psa> Matt will be happy to hear it :)
[23:40:56] <Jon> Although, of course, OTR sounds good as well. :)
[23:41:47] <Jon> Where are these developments discussed? Is there a specific standards mailing-list or something that I should subscribe to?
[23:44:26] <psa> Jon: the IETF documents are discussed on xmpp@ietf.org = https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/xmpp
[23:44:50] <psa> the OTR stuff is discussed on the otr-dev list, see http://www.cypherpunks.ca/otr/
[23:48:15] <Jon> Perfect, I'll sign up for them both. :)
[23:48:30] <Jon> Thanks again!
[23:48:30] <psa> cool
[23:48:33] <psa> sure thing
[23:48:41] <psa> /me posts a blog entry about the XMPP WG session
[23:59:21] <psa> Jon: we also have a general XMPP standardization list at standards@xmpp.org = http://mail.jabber.org/mailman/listinfo/standards
[23:59:41] <psa> (BTW: http://xmpp.org/2012/03/xmpp-wg-session-at-ietf-83/ )
[00:00:07] <psa> ok, my next day of meetings starts in 5 hours, so I think it's time to get some sleep :)
[00:01:06] <MattJ> 'night :)
[00:01:41] <MattJ> /me banished any chance of early morning meetings by only working with people far, far west of him
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