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[02:37:41] <nana> hi
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[12:52:33] <guus> Is it me or is http://www.jabber.org/favicon.ico an invalid file?
[12:58:44] <Alex> xmpp.org is also broken for me: http://xmpp.org/
[12:58:55] <Kev> xmpp.org's broken?
[12:59:05] <Alex> I get the old page
[12:59:23] <Kev> You've got something caching DNS far beyond the TTL, then.
[13:01:34] <Alex> flushed my dns cache, does not help. So I have to wait until my provider updates the dns
[13:01:54] <Kev> The TTL's 15mins, so your provider must be doing Very Bad Things.
[13:02:08] <guus> I get the old page too
[13:02:11] <guus> on xmpp.org
[13:02:19] <guus> unlike two days ago
[13:02:24] <Kev> Oh.
[13:02:33] <Kev> No, quite the contrary, it's not you who has the problem, it's me.
[13:02:43] <Kev> I think, anyway. Let's see.
[13:03:06] <Kev> Oh, right.
[13:03:15] <Kev> For xmpp.org I get: xmpp.org. 441 IN A 208.68.163.214 xmpp.org. 441 IN A 91.121.109.155
[13:03:52] <Kev> The first of those is the main site, the second is the backup I put up last night when the server went down.
[13:04:09] <Alex> I get the backup IP
[13:06:35] <Kev> Ok, I've set DNS back the way it was.
[13:06:54] <Alex> ok, lets wait 15 min., then ;-)
[13:06:59] <Kev> Thanks chaps.
[13:07:03] <guus> instant success here
[13:07:15] <guus> the right bar on the website is a bit off
[13:07:26] <guus> should contain twitter feed, I think?
[13:07:49] <guus> perhaps it'll restore after the DNS change bubbles through
[13:08:39] <guus> But, in any case. That favicon on jabber.org - do you have access to that, Kev?
[13:08:58] <guus> it's not a biggy, but our admin console gets empty squares instead of nice pictures :)
[13:09:55] <Kev> I don't know what would have caused that.
[13:11:06] <guus> well, http://jabber.org/facivon.ico appears to be corrupt.
[13:11:16] <guus> the file is there, but has no content.
[13:11:32] <guus> my browser doesn't like it either
[13:13:29] <guus> wait, I'm lying
[13:13:36] <guus> the file isn't there at all
[13:13:40] <guus> nevermind.
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[18:15:49] <psa> hmph, InstantBird doesn't know about my bookmarked chatrooms, but I suppose it's not a super-advanced client
[18:17:49] <xnyhps> I don't think libpurple supports that.
[18:18:00] <psa> right
[18:18:13] <psa> although InstantBird is planning to migrate to its own XMPP library
[18:18:20] <psa> so perhaps that feature will appear in the future
[18:18:42] <psa> I had a good chat with the core InstantBird developer at FOSDEM last weekend
[18:19:50] <xnyhps> Oh, that's Florian Quèze, right?
[18:21:47] <psa> yes
[18:21:50] <psa> nice guy
[18:21:54] <psa> he's working on some cool stuff
[18:21:59] <psa> very nice intuitive interfaces
[18:22:10] <psa> and integration with Thunderbird
[18:22:26] <psa> brb
[18:22:58] <xnyhps> I only know him from working on some extremely obscure bug in libpurple with GaduGadu on ppc. :)
[18:26:10] <psa> :)
[18:32:55] <Neustradamus> I have links for you about XMPP and Mozilla, one moment.
[18:33:15] <Neustradamus> here: https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=714733
[18:33:26] <Neustradamus> https://wiki.mozilla.org/Features/Thunderbird/Instant_messaging_in_Thunderbird
[18:34:17] <Neustradamus> https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=14328
[18:37:15] <psa> thanks for the links!
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[18:39:52] <Alex> are there any MUC servers which support MUC avatars?
[18:40:24] <Alex> I mean avatars for the room itself, not the paricipants
[18:41:12] <psa> Alex: not that I'm aware of, but I like the idea
[18:42:26] <Alex> the "whats app" mobile app supports it, its based on xmpp, btut I don't know how they implemented it
[18:43:07] <Alex> http://www.whatsapp.com/
[18:44:56] <Alex> the easiest solution would be propably to allow admins to set a vcard
[18:46:48] <Neustradamus> Alex: I have Psi+ and I see some avatars here...
[18:47:45] <psa> Alex: yes, I think so
[18:53:51] <Alex> Neustradamus: I don't mean Avatar of users, I mean an avatar for the room itself
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[19:39:20] <Neustradamus> Alex: ah!
[19:40:09] <Neustradamus> but in Psi+ I do not see all avatars... Maybe because several vCard XEPs :D
[19:42:56] <guus> Was it a deliberate choice not to include an explicit attribute that relates to 'order' in XEP-0059 - Result Set Management?
[19:44:04] <Alex> Neustradamus: yes, this is the problem. And also MUC components and severs which give you no access to the vcard
[19:45:14] <Neustradamus> about XEP-0045, it is noted about room avatar ?
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[19:53:54] <guus> psa, care to comment? XEP-0059 RSM is oriented towards a GUI that contains a scrollable list (in which order is often implied, I guess). A common GUI element is that of a paginated table. That would work well with RSM (as long as you do not relax the requirement on accuracy of the 'index' value). A common feature of such tables is the ability to sort data by column - which is how I noticed that any form of 'ordering' is missing from the XEP.
[19:57:00] <psa> guus: I haven't looked at RSM in quite a while, let me heat up some lunch here and read it again while I eat
[19:58:48] <guus> Thanks - I'll be unloading some groceries - might not respond immediately.
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[20:17:19] <psa> guus: I think it might be even worse than you imply, because it's not clear what the relationship truly is between the RSM block and the data itself (e.g., how does the application know which element or attribute in the data is actually the index?)
[20:17:55] <guus> I think you got that covered
[20:18:10] <guus> let me find the quote
[20:18:39] <guus> "The responding entity may generate these UIDs in any way, as long as the UIDs are unique in the context of all possible members of the full result set. Each UID MAY be based on part of the content of its associated item, as shown below, or on an internal table index. Another possible method is to serialize the XML of the item and then hash it to generate the UID. Note: The requesting entity MUST treat all UIDs as opaque."
[20:19:51] <guus> The index is nothing more than the numerical reference to the position of an element in the entire set (which again implies some kind of order)
[20:20:08] <psa> right
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[20:22:05] <guus> strictly speaking, I think the XEP could use (well, it's been in use for years and no-one missed it, but hey) a reference to ordering, even if its to be implicit. If functionality could be added that can be used to define ordering of a result set, the XEP becomes a lot more flexible.
[20:23:30] <psa> do you envision something like http://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0016.html ?
[20:23:39] <psa> sometimes I worry about too much flexibility ;-)
[20:24:08] <guus> let me give some background
[20:24:35] <guus> my daytime job relates to writing backend services for frontend developers of webapps
[20:25:07] <guus> for a couple of projects, we're working with REST-like interfaces, that work with XML entities.
[20:25:43] <guus> Some result sets are so large, that pagination was added.
[20:25:53] <guus> We basically based that on XEP-0059
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[20:27:19] <guus> but as traditional webpages use tables (and not scrollable lists), we got to the point were it was logical to modify the order via with you iterate over a result set.
[20:27:19] <psa> /me laughs at jcea's leave message
[20:28:05] <guus> for that, we needed something like this: <ordinality>    <order by="firstName" direction="DESC"/>  </ordinality>
[20:28:19] <guus> but that got me thinking: why isn't that part of RSM in the first place?
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[20:29:38] <guus> as any form of iteration (using more than one request) depends on the fact that each request uses a result set that's ordered in the same way
[20:30:17] <psa> trye
[20:30:19] <psa> true
[20:30:27] <psa> the ordering was implicit
[20:30:37] <psa> but implicit things can be rather slippery
[20:30:48] <guus> that was my thought.
[20:30:59] <guus> which is why I asked.
[20:31:45] <psa> guus: I think we just didn't give it enough thought back in 2006
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[20:32:17] <guus> I'm not advocating that a lot more flexibility should be added - although I'm not denying that it could have considerable added value. My biggest worry is that by adding ordering, I don't see a way to do this without stepping away from the very loose coupling between the protocol and the entities in the result set (the 'opaque' reference relates to that)
[20:32:28] <psa> yeah
[20:32:39] <psa> the coupling is very loose right now
[20:33:10] <guus> I don't see how you can maintain that by referencing to an attribute on which ordering needs to be based.
[20:33:12] <psa> at the least, I would like to sketch out examples of using RSM in a variety of XMPP extensions
[20:33:47] <psa> because I think that would help to show how loose the coupling is -- we might not in fact be comfortable with that much slack
[20:34:05] <guus> well, the user-based example can be extended easily: it's not uncommon for someone wanting to order based on last names, while another prefers first names.
[20:34:15] <psa> and I'll note that RMS might have been Zoofied ;-)
[20:34:21] <psa> er
[20:34:22] <psa> RSM
[20:34:26] <psa> not RMS :)
[20:34:37] <guus> zoofied?
[20:34:45] <psa> Appendix B: Author Information Ian Paterson Email: ian.paterson@clientside.co.uk JabberID: ian@zoofy.com
[20:34:57] <psa> typically, everything that Ian touched became too complex
[20:35:08] <psa> his nick was "zoofy"
[20:35:11] <guus> ah :)
[20:35:16] <psa> ;-)
[20:35:21] <guus> Don't think I ever met him.
[20:35:27] <psa> he was a character
[20:35:28] <guus> Well, generally, I'm quite happy with RSM
[20:35:50] <guus> the only thing that I'm disliking is the remark that index values can be approximate
[20:36:01] <guus> that basically kills pagination.
[20:36:14] <guus> Implementation-wise, RSM is hard on a relational database, by the way
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[20:36:40] <psa> I don't recall why we said that things could be approximate
[20:38:00] <guus> we didn't find another way of implementing it sensibly (for *large* datasets) than use the ROW_NUMBER ... OVER structure - support for which is not that great in some RDBMSses.
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[20:56:18] <psa> sorry, got pulled off into IETF stuff, but I will make sure to look at the RSM spec sometime soon
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[21:06:20] <guus> cool, thanks
[21:06:45] <psa> guus: have you sent a message to the standards@xmpp.org list about this?
[21:06:57] <guus> no
[21:07:05] <guus> want me to?
[21:07:08] <psa> that would help to encourage replies from people other than me :)
[21:07:15] <psa> yes, that would be great
[21:07:20] <guus> ok
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[21:17:01] <psa> I must say, I think my favorite test account is π@jabber.org :)
[21:25:26] <psa> guus: thanks!
[21:25:36] <guus> yw
[21:47:41] <psa> /me finds himself once more deep into internationalization hell
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[22:23:11] <kmn83> Hi...I was just over on another forum (guus, I think you were there) and was asking if an XEP-0060 pub/sub implementation would be suitable to use for s2s communciations. Most of the examples I've seen seem focus on c2s and I was wondering if anyone has been using XEP-0060 for s2s work. It is either that or write an externalized XEP-0114 service as a gateway. I wanted to implement some pub/sub style QoS features, but didn't want go too far down the XEP-0060 route if it wasn't intended for s2s. Any thoughts?
[22:34:36] <psa> hmm
[22:34:59] <psa> kmn83: you mean for communication directly from one server to another?
[22:35:23] <psa> nothing in the spec forbids that
[22:35:42] <psa> and it's used that way today in some applications
[22:36:56] <kmn83> psa: yes s2s directly...I'm guessing that an extension in a server would use the initialize( ) method to get the handshaking done to an external pub/sub infrastructure and then its normal impl from there.
[22:37:37] <psa> kmn83: well, some codebases include pubsub support in the core server, e.g. wokkel and ejabberd and prosody (AFAIK)
[22:43:12] <kmn83> psa: yes...I've noticed that...I suppose that if I were to re-implement with particular features, I would implement in the same manner and offer as a similar, but different XEP-0060 extension.
[22:44:44] <psa> kmn83: um, why would you define a different extension? I'm confused
[22:48:34] <kmn83> psa: it wouldn't necessarily need to be a different extension, but a different implementation of the extension with optional features. no need to create a different extension.
[22:48:46] <psa> aha ok
[22:48:49] <psa> that makes more sense :)
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[22:50:08] <kmn83> thanks for the input...back to heavy multi tasking...ciao!
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