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[16:20:34] <windower> Hi people.
[16:20:40] <windower> I was wondering,m
[16:20:50] <windower> why does the XTLS proposal use Jingle?
[16:21:05] <windower> Why doesn't it simply transfer the base64ed SSL data through normal XMPP stanzas?
[16:21:15] <windower> (The same XMPP stanzas used for text messages.)
[16:21:36] <Kev> I think that's two questions, isn't it?
[16:21:50] <windower> I think the latter question is my real question.
[16:21:53] <Kev> Jingle is just the signalling mechanism, but you're talking about why it's out of band.
[16:21:58] <windower> yeah
[16:22:07] <Kev> I guess it depends what properties you want.
[16:22:28] <Kev> If you do it in band, the server can tell when you're talking to someone and how much you're saying.
[16:22:50] <windower> oh i see.
[16:22:53] <Kev> If you do it out of band, it only knows that you've started an encrypted stream, and nothing more.
[16:22:55] <windower> fair enough
[16:23:10] <windower> I was looking at the XTLS proposal,
[16:23:11] <Kev> And since you're doing end to end encryption presumably because the servers aren't trusted in some way, it's not an entirely daft idea.
[16:23:21] <Kev> I think it's the only one of the E2E proposals that have been out of band, though.
[16:23:32] <windower> and I was wondering how hard it would be to modify it so that end-to-end TLS can be achieved in MUCs too.
[16:23:44] <windower> (pairwise between the clients, and not between the clients and the server)
[16:23:54] <Kev> I think if you do that it's not MUC anymore.
[16:24:03] <Kev> Because the MUC is always a repeater in between all the users.
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[16:24:09] <windower> Right.
[16:24:31] <windower> I was thinking of using the private MUC messages to that
[16:24:36] <windower> and keep calling it MUC
[16:24:42] <windower> but I'm not sure if it's worth it.
[16:24:43] <Kev> So you're making the bandwidth et al. requirements for each occupant N-times larger whenever they say something.
[16:25:07] <windower> correct
[16:25:17] <windower> it sucks I know
[16:25:26] <windower> but it's the easiest way of doing it
[16:25:36] <windower> before going into "group key establishment" crypto magic
[16:26:13] <windower> still it sucks, and negotiating a group key and encrypting all public messages with that key is probably the way it should be done.
[16:27:00] <windower> in any case
[16:27:04] <windower> kev thanks for the help!
[16:27:13] <Kev> YW, sorry it wasn't much help.
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[21:50:01] <paul> Hi - I have a question about s2s dialback over tls - wondering if server (openfire in this case) is doing the right thing
[21:50:19] <paul> scenario server a opens stream with server b
[21:51:03] <paul> server b says tls required - server a and b negotiate tls successfully and switch to new (tls stream)
[21:51:28] <paul> server a sends dialback key over tls stream to server b
[21:51:55] <paul> server b then needs to "dialback" to the authorative server for server a's domain
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[21:52:35] <paul> server b opens a new stream (in the clear) to server a (if the dns records point there)
[21:53:25] <paul> server a rejects the dialback key exchange because it is set tls required and the call is in the clear
[21:53:30] <paul> s2s fails
[21:54:20] <paul> so - in this case should server b do the dialback over a newly negotiated tls session - or is server a being over fussy about the dialback?
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[22:10:16] <Kev> I don't know what the Right Thing is in this case, without checking the specs.
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[22:16:24] <Kev> It does seem, offhand, that if starttls is marked <required/> then the server should be negotiating it.
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[22:47:03] <paul> happy to believe I didn't look deep enough - but I couldn't see any specifics around this part of the conversation - but there doesn't seem to be scope in the handshake for the tls/required to take place - the dialback is a two packet exchange - "here's the key" - "yes it's ok/no its not" - not sure there is a stream established as such
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