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[01:44:44] <justin> i'm thinking about using github, but i'm not sure i like how repos are personal. is there a practice of people creating organization accounts to hold the repos?
[01:45:11] <justin> github seems to already have the concept of an org account but it is pay only as far as i can tell
[01:48:17] <Zash> Choose the organization’s plan ... Open Source ($0/month)
[01:50:17] <justin> hmm, i didn't see that
[01:50:29] <justin> but just noticed that mongodb is a free org, so i guess it is possible
[01:54:31] <justin> heh, and it seems someone already made the "psi-im" org. my work here is done
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[02:01:56] <notKev> justin: Gitorious is more org-oriented.
[02:02:10] <notKev> Github's very much about the individual, or used to be.
[02:05:15] <stpeter> /me waves to notKev who is clearly notVacationing as he should be :P
[02:06:30] <justin> on the surface it seems to have the basics. even the psi org is 3 years old
[02:06:49] <notKev> I think it was me or Remko who started mirrorring to github.
[02:07:03] <notKev> Back in the old days :)
[02:07:47] <justin> good, i'd like to get in touch with the org owner ;)
[02:08:08] <notKev> Give me a couple of days to recover from vacation, and I'll look to see if I have the credentials.
[02:08:25] <notKev> Otherwise it'll be Remko.
[02:08:43] <justin> thanks
[02:08:54] <justin> it seems psi is also mirrored on gitorious
[02:09:49] <justin> swift is on gitorious, so i guess you prefer it?
[02:10:30] <notKev> Swift isn't on Gitorious any more, we moved back to swift.im.
[02:10:56] <justin> why that change?
[02:11:05] <notKev> We know the license for stuff we host on swift.im :)
[02:11:20] <notKev> Gitorious's T&Cs were questionable for us.
[02:11:27] <stpeter> is licensing ambiguous on gitorious?
[02:11:28] <notKev> You have to be able to relicense everything you upload.
[02:11:30] <stpeter> strange
[02:11:40] <notKev> Which is clearly not possible for an OSS project.
[02:11:51] <notKev> Well, not a multi-person project.
[02:12:26] <notKev> I think it's one of those times where a bit of legalese is getting in the way of what it really means, but it was ambiguous enough that we just decided it was easier to manage ourselves.
[02:13:09] <notKev> IANAL, etc.
[02:16:08] <justin> hmm
[02:16:14] <justin> http://en.gitorious.org/tos/
[02:16:34] <justin> seems it was updated this year. did you move before or after May?
[02:16:45] <notKev> Before, almost certainly.
[02:17:00] <justin> ah ok. i wonder if they addressed this very issue
[02:18:01] <notKev> - <p>By submitting Content to Gitorious for inclusion on the Website, you grant Gitorious a world-wide, perpetual, royalty-free, and non-exclusive license to reproduce, modify, - adapt and publish the Content for the purpose of displaying, distributing (hereunder sub-licensing) and promoting your account, project or Content. If you delete Content, - Gitorious will use reasonable efforts to remove it from the Website, but you acknowledge that caching or references to the Content may not be made immediately - unavailable.</p> + <p> + As a contributor you shall ensure that the license under which + you distribute the Content entitles Gitorious to reproduce and + publish the Content as you submit it to Gitorious,
[02:18:02] <notKev> etc.
[02:18:12] <justin> indeed
[02:18:21] <notKev> Although the rest is still fairy stern stuff.
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[02:19:29] <notKev> It does seem to have addressed that issue, though.
[02:20:34] <justin> stern, but with reason. anyone hosting code probably needs terms like this
[02:20:44] <notKev> Probably.
[02:21:39] <notKev> It does, in any case, now look like the ToS are possible to obey. At least from a cursory glance.
[02:22:18] <justin> what do you guys use for task tracking or wiki?
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[02:24:20] <notKev> Fogbugz, but that won't do for Psi.
[02:24:25] <notKev> We don't have a public wiki.
[02:24:39] <notKev> We have a script that exports our Fogbugz bugs into a read-only public list.
[02:25:07] <notKev> The new Fog Creek thing could be interesting, but Remko only sent me a mail about it earlier. I've not been paying much attention the last couple of weeks.
[02:25:20] <justin> what do you mean "won't do" ?
[02:25:31] <notKev> It's private.
[02:25:43] <Zash> And closed source evilness!!!
[02:25:48] <notKev> You can have a free project, but only two accounts on it.
[02:26:30] <justin> ah, yes, do want something public. although the private tracker + public export is interesting.. i've never been a huge fan of letting strangers muck with the tasks anyway
[02:26:33] <notKev> It happens to be much much more usable than any of the Free ones we tried, and since we're a two-person dev team we decided us being able to use the tracker effectively was the most important thing for Swift - but it does mean every bug we have to file ourselves etc.
[02:26:59] <notKev> Right. I like this way of working, but it seems like it shouldn't scale.
[02:28:12] <notKev> As a user of opensource projects, I'm much more a fan of dropping a mail to a mailing list, or dropping into a chatroom, describing my bug to a dev and having them sort out the issue tracking than finding a public bug tracker I can register with, forget the password for, file a bug in the wrong format, etc. :)
[02:29:21] <stpeter> :)
[02:30:51] <notKev> justin: http://www.joelonsoftware.com/items/2011/09/13.html is the new Fog Creek thing. I know nothing about it, but it's probably worth a few seconds of your time.
[02:31:19] <notKev> OTOH, Redmine is the most competent of the Free trackers that I've tried. I think I could just about live with it instead of FB if I had to.
[02:31:31] <notKev> I don't know if you still have the Redmine server running or not.
[02:33:05] <justin> psi redmine is unfortunately toast
[02:33:22] <notKev> Do you have the data?
[02:33:31] <justin> nope!
[02:33:35] <notKev> Blah.
[02:35:50] <justin> this time around, we'll be more careful and have a backup routine in place. this is also why we've been looking at cloud services lately, knowing our own limitations..
[02:36:30] <notKev> Github does have some sort of issue tracking.
[02:36:39] <notKev> I don't use it, but I think other people do.
[02:36:59] <stpeter> ok, I think my work day is done, time to chill out :)
[02:37:01] <justin> i have no idea if even the psi git has a routine backup. although git sort of backs itself up, fortunately
[02:37:02] <stpeter> ttyl
[02:37:08] <notKev> GN Peter.
[02:37:11] <justin> later
[02:37:13] <stpeter> GN
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[02:37:19] <notKev> justin: Yes, it backs up to github :)
[02:37:24] <notKev> Or it used to, anyway.
[02:37:33] <justin> well, that too, and yes it still does
[02:54:39] <notKev> I don't know what Remko does for backups of swift.im, mind.
[02:54:47] <notKev> http://swift.im, that is.
[02:55:12] <notKev> xmpp:swift.im is clustered across the US and EU, and both cluster nodes are themselves backed up to a machine at home.
[02:56:03] <notKev> And the Git repo is monitored by a Hudson (actually Jenkins) instance in a VM at home - as well as that we must have a copy on one of our machines of all changes to have been able to push them.
[03:08:56] <justin> trello looks neat. not a true substitute for an issue tracker but more for project management
[03:10:23] <notKev> I meant it when I said I hadn't looked at it yet. Remko just sent me a link :)
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[03:14:25] <notKev> You could always put some work into MaybeLater and use that :D
[03:16:50] <notKev> Do you ever chat to HanzZ (Spectrum)? I think he uses GitHub's tracker.
[03:20:31] <justin> hmm, spectrum project uses redmine though
[03:20:48] <notKev> Then I'm wrong :)
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[14:16:02] <Hugin> if i'm receiving a message from a contact containing an error element, can i be sure it's a returned message originally sent by me?
[14:16:35] <aholler> no
[14:18:01] <Hugin> under which circumstances can an error element appear?
[14:19:20] <aholler> if someone send one
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[17:56:20] <pawan.neupane> I've been getting resource conflict everytime I tried connecting to Facebook Transport on different servers
[17:57:56] <pawan.neupane> is there any way out? I want to connect to my facebook friends through my jabber account rather than logging into facebook chat through xmpp
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[17:59:58] <pawan.neupane> I'm asked to change my fb password everytime I try to connect to facebook transport
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[18:55:30] <alkino> it's a stupid question ?
[18:55:52] <alkino> but how use beta.xmpp.messenger.live.com
[18:56:46] <xnyhps> alkino: They have a custom authentication you need to implement (basically, get a key with OAuth2).
[18:56:57] <alkino> oh :(
[18:57:01] <alkino> not funny :(
[18:58:03] <alkino> ty, I will wait that someone do it :(
[18:59:43] <xnyhps> I guess it depends on the client how hard it is (if opening a web view is hard, then doing this well may be difficult).
[19:00:59] <xnyhps> But it took me just a couple of hours this morning to modify our Facebook authentication to work for MSN as well.
[19:01:41] <alkino> ok so I will take a look :p
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[19:23:03] <Tobias> stpeter, hi
[19:27:15] <stpeter> hey
[19:27:28] <stpeter> busy day here, just about to start another meeting, but I have a few minutes
[19:28:12] <Tobias> are you okay with my proposed changes to the s5b transport method xep?
[19:28:21] <pawan.neupane> could anyone plz suggest a solution to the problem I've encountered?
[19:28:27] <stpeter> did you check changes into git?
[19:28:34] <stpeter> or did I miss a message on the list?
[19:28:48] <stpeter> /me checks
[19:29:32] <stpeter> your message to the list seems fine
[19:29:35] <stpeter> and helpful
[19:29:36] <stpeter> so +
[19:29:39] <stpeter> +1 even :)
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[19:31:19] <Tobias> the base64 -> hex changes, yeah
[19:31:32] <stpeter> that too
[19:32:52] <Tobias> k :)
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[19:35:13] <stpeter> Tobias: where did you post the hex hashes?
[19:36:10] <Tobias> what do you mean where?
[19:36:32] <stpeter> I thought you were going to paste them into the chatroom here
[19:36:52] <stpeter> /me types 'git pull'
[19:37:10] <Tobias> ähm..no :) i committed them to the repo
[19:37:21] <stpeter> right :)
[19:37:28] <stpeter> ok, got it
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[20:57:33] <justin> xnyhps: but FB supports digest-md5 anyway, why use oauth?
[20:58:19] <xnyhps> Because that requires people to sign up for a FB username.
[20:58:24] <xnyhps> And not everyone wanted that.
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[21:20:13] <Tobias> stpeter, so who adds this stuff. how are changes from other authors handled? who issues new versions? etc.
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[21:52:50] <stpeter> Tobias: I need to leave soon (was just fixing some stuff with Neustradamus) but I will review your diff tonight, along with the other messages to the list from you and Remko
[21:53:18] <stpeter> see http://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0143.html#maintain (but you have check-in privileges so that doesn't apply to you :)
[21:53:28] <Tobias> k..was just a general question...to distribute the work a bit
[21:53:40] <stpeter> right
[21:53:44] <stpeter> in general people send me patches
[21:53:52] <stpeter> but in truth there are not so many patches :)
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[21:55:13] <stpeter> bbiab
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