Logs for jdev
[00:05:46] * mcepl left the chat.
[00:28:13] * Lance left the chat.
[00:49:43] * xnyhps' joined the chat.
[00:51:02] * xnyhps' left the chat.
[02:03:45] * alkino left the chat.
[02:38:53] * lastsky joined the chat.
[02:40:32] * lastsky left the chat.
[02:49:35] * harrykar left the chat.
[03:29:53] * sonny left the chat.
[04:48:31] * teo left the chat.
[04:48:31] * teo joined the chat.
[05:19:22] * marseille left the chat.
[06:18:56] * desmoy joined the chat.
[06:21:41] * desmoy left the chat.
[06:27:25] * Kev joined the chat.
[06:27:43] * rtreffer left the chat.
[06:31:27] * scippio left the chat.
[06:39:26] * lastsky joined the chat.
[07:21:25] * lastsky left the chat.
[07:21:25] * lastsky joined the chat.
[07:30:59] * guus joined the chat.
[07:31:51] * rtreffer joined the chat.
[07:34:17] * lastsky left the chat.
[07:36:49] * marseille joined the chat.
[07:46:10] * Zash joined the chat.
[07:46:17] * luca tagliaferri joined the chat.
[08:18:15] * scippio joined the chat.
[08:26:53] * petermount joined the chat.
[08:46:50] * lastsky joined the chat.
[08:55:03] * Alex joined the chat.
[08:56:13] * marseille left the chat.
[09:08:25] * lastsky left the chat.
[09:12:27] * akuckartz@jabber.ccc.de joined the chat.
[09:13:17] * akuckartz@jabber.ccc.de left the chat.
[09:25:21] * Alex left the chat.
[09:31:37] * Tobias joined the chat.
[09:40:05] * po joined the chat.
[09:42:30] * louiz’ left the chat.
[09:44:18] * louiz’ joined the chat.
[10:08:35] * badlop joined the chat.
[10:20:32] * nabatt joined the chat.
[10:28:17] * Zash left the chat.
[10:44:11] * sonny joined the chat.
[10:56:49] * xnyhps left the chat.
[10:57:00] * xnyhps joined the chat.
[10:59:33] * lastsky joined the chat.
[11:00:20] * lastsky left the chat.
[11:11:55] * waqas joined the chat.
[11:12:27] * sonny left the chat.
[11:13:56] * sonny joined the chat.
[11:23:33] * sonny left the chat.
[11:25:15] * sonny joined the chat.
[11:30:32] * lastsky joined the chat.
[11:35:11] * lastsky left the chat.
[11:51:37] * teo left the chat.
[11:51:37] * teo joined the chat.
[11:59:41] * waqas left the chat.
[12:25:20] * lastsky joined the chat.
[12:27:29] * lastsky left the chat.
[12:54:19] * sonny left the chat.
[12:54:37] * sonny joined the chat.
[13:03:53] * nabatt left the chat.
[13:04:28] * nabatt joined the chat.
[13:18:23] * sonny left the chat.
[13:20:30] * sonny joined the chat.
[13:24:16] * harrykar joined the chat.
[13:37:52] * deryni left the chat.
[13:41:16] * Zash joined the chat.
[13:47:02] * naw joined the chat.
[13:47:22] * guus left the chat.
[14:08:51] * JustKeith joined the chat.
[14:10:45] * JustKeith left the chat.
[14:10:50] * sonny left the chat.
[14:17:36] * sonny joined the chat.
[14:24:56] * deryni joined the chat.
[14:34:16] * SimonT joined the chat.
[14:39:06] * SimonT left the chat.
[14:53:21] * Tobias left the chat.
[14:54:31] * darkrain_ joined the chat.
[15:26:23] * Treebilou left the chat.
[15:39:56] * rtreffer left the chat.
[16:01:52] * alkino joined the chat.
[16:05:39] * sonny left the chat.
[16:05:39] * sonny joined the chat.
[16:10:19] * nabatt left the chat.
[16:20:18] * Lance joined the chat.
[16:20:18] * Lance left the chat.
[16:20:59] * Lance joined the chat.
[16:22:35] * sonny left the chat.
[16:25:47] * stpeter joined the chat.
[16:27:18] * naw left the chat.
[16:35:04] * sonny joined the chat.
[16:52:51] * badlop left the chat.
[16:54:14] * marseille joined the chat.
[16:54:45] * teste joined the chat.
[16:59:28] * teste left the chat.
[16:59:31] * rtreffer joined the chat.
[17:05:10] * petermount left the chat.
[17:10:03] * Kev2 joined the chat.
[17:21:25] <stpeter> Kev: have you ever seen http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/xmpp/current/msg00163.html ?
[17:21:25] * Lance left the chat.
[17:21:25] * Kev left the chat.
[17:21:30] <stpeter> oops :)
[17:21:50] <Zash> Have you ever seen the rain?
[17:21:57] <Kev2> Ah, I guess I must have done.
[17:22:01] <Kev2> I don't remember, though.
[17:22:32] <stpeter> Zash: :)
[17:22:49] <stpeter> I might write up a spec based on Tony's suggestions
[17:22:49] <Kev2> Kev left the room because you caused a message to be sent, which caused a bounce (it was a ghost).
[17:22:55] <stpeter> right
[17:23:07] <stpeter> at least to explore the idea
[17:23:30] <Kev2> doomsong's finally running with the new routing rules for type=groupchat.
[17:24:18] <stpeter> good for you :)
[17:24:42] <Zash> Kev2: error on nonexistent full jid?
[17:24:52] <Kev2> Zash: Right.
[17:25:13] <Kev2> stpeter: Right, so just pipelining where possible. This seems sensible.
[17:25:40] <stpeter> Kev: basically, yes
[17:26:18] * Lance joined the chat.
[17:26:25] <stpeter> Kev: I think I'd break it into two parts: the pipelining stuff (which can be used on initial connection) and recommendations
for fast reconnect (use TLS session resumption, etc.)
[17:26:48] <Kev2> Fastest reconnect = BOSH :)
[17:26:53] <stpeter> heh
[17:26:59] <stpeter> well, this is in the TCP world :P
[17:27:03] <Kev2> True, though, no?
[17:27:07] <Kev2> No round trips required
[17:27:34] <stpeter> just curious: is anyone using BOSH for s2s?
[17:27:50] <Kev2> What an interesting thought. I don't know of anyone.
[17:28:10] <stpeter> Kev2: I'm sure you know of the use cases I'm thinking about...
[17:28:20] <Kev2> ISTM that the best way to do fast reconnect on TCP is to have 198 hand over a session id like BOSH does, and just accept that
in the stream header.
[17:28:38] <Kev2> I can think of cases where this would be interesting, yes.
[17:28:39] <stpeter> Kev2: the thought did cross my mind last night
[17:28:55] <Kev2> Which - BOSH or 198-reconnect?
[17:29:02] <stpeter> Kev2: just include an 'id' in the initial stream header?
[17:29:18] <Zash> Yes, more HTTP please!
[17:29:19] <Kev2> Yeah.
[17:29:27] <stpeter> Kev2: right
[17:29:31] <stpeter> Kev: both are interesting
[17:29:32] <Kev2> Where it matches the id that was given to you when you negotiated 198 initially.
[17:29:35] <stpeter> nod
[17:29:37] <stpeter> exactly
[17:30:49] <Kev2> Also simplifies the resumption dance.
[17:31:21] * Lance left the chat.
[17:31:37] <Kev2> So I reckon you've got about two round-trips to get the session back up and synchronized, in that case.
[17:32:01] <stpeter> <stream from='client' to='server' id='my-old-stream-id'><enable xmlns='urn:xmpp:sm:3' id='my-old-sm-id' resume='true'/> (?)
that assumes pipelining, though...
[17:32:25] <Kev2> Right.
[17:33:02] <stpeter> or slap the 198-id into the stream header
[17:33:44] <stpeter> that's a hack
[17:36:21] * Lance joined the chat.
[17:41:23] <Kev2> It does mean transmitting a plaintext password-equivalent across the stream, which is a bit of a problem where you don't have
or don't trust TLS, but hey ho.
[17:41:48] <Kev2> So I think it probably needs to be something that you negotiate in the initial stream, rather than providing by default.
[17:42:01] <stpeter> yes
[17:42:02] <Kev2> (Subject to local policy, etc :))
[17:46:04] * Tobias joined the chat.
[17:47:27] <stpeter> on reconnection (after negotiation of the relevant feature for the initial connection) the client could do <stream from='client'
to='server' id='my-old-stream-id' sm:id='my-old-sm-id' xmlns:sm='urn:xmpp:sm:3'/>
[17:47:28] * luca tagliaferri left the chat.
[17:47:41] <stpeter> http://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc5077 is also of interest
[17:50:21] <stpeter> Kev, as you note the server would need to have a policy about this, e.g., don't send the SM "ticket" over an unencrypted stream
and always consider the ticket to be stale after some configurable amount of time (10 minutes or whatever)
[17:52:37] <stpeter> /me heats up some lunch
[17:53:03] * geek.ncw\40gmail.com joined the chat.
[17:53:03] * geek.ncw\40gmail.com left the chat.
[17:53:05] * Treebilou joined the chat.
[17:53:31] * Treebilou left the chat.
[17:53:39] * Treebilou joined the chat.
[17:54:27] * geek.ncw\40gmail.com joined the chat.
[17:54:27] * geek.ncw\40gmail.com left the chat.
[18:00:34] * niels.van.hecke\40gmail.com joined the chat.
[18:00:34] * niels.van.hecke\40gmail.com left the chat.
[18:01:25] * niels.van.hecke\40gmail.com joined the chat.
[18:01:25] * niels.van.hecke\40gmail.com left the chat.
[18:03:38] * nielsvh@quojax.com joined the chat.
[18:06:30] * Lance left the chat.
[18:09:56] * guus joined the chat.
[18:11:32] * Lance joined the chat.
[18:11:32] * Lance left the chat.
[18:14:47] <stpeter> bbiab
[18:15:19] * teo left the chat.
[18:15:19] * teo joined the chat.
[18:15:21] * Kev2 left the chat.
[18:16:32] * Lance joined the chat.
[18:16:33] * Lance left the chat.
[18:18:15] * scippio left the chat.
[18:21:34] * Lance joined the chat.
[18:28:24] * terw joined the chat.
[18:28:48] * terw left the chat.
[18:34:46] * xnyhps left the chat.
[18:37:46] * Kev2 joined the chat.
[18:38:16] * xnyhps joined the chat.
[18:41:40] * Lance left the chat.
[18:46:41] * Lance joined the chat.
[18:46:41] * Lance left the chat.
[18:51:42] * Lance joined the chat.
[18:51:42] * Lance left the chat.
[18:56:44] * Lance joined the chat.
[18:56:44] * Lance left the chat.
[19:01:45] * Lance joined the chat.
[19:01:45] * Lance left the chat.
[19:06:47] * Lance joined the chat.
[19:06:47] * Lance left the chat.
[19:11:04] * po left the chat.
[19:11:48] * Lance joined the chat.
[19:18:52] * naw joined the chat.
[19:21:16] * sonny left the chat.
[19:43:51] * AlexG joined the chat.
[19:44:20] * AlexG left the chat.
[19:44:21] * po joined the chat.
[19:48:20] * nabatt joined the chat.
[19:51:34] * xnyhps left the chat.
[19:51:34] * xnyhps joined the chat.
[20:16:07] * alkino left the chat.
[20:22:38] * nabatt left the chat.
[20:24:17] * scippio joined the chat.
[20:26:03] * nielsvh@quojax.com left the chat.
[20:26:23] * Asterix joined the chat.
[20:27:15] * nielsvh joined the chat.
[20:41:33] * Asterix left the chat.
[20:41:56] * Asterix joined the chat.
[20:47:06] * deryni left the chat.
[21:00:26] * mcepl joined the chat.
[21:00:53] <mcepl> does anybody know whether there's any connection between Jingle, xmpp and Google Voice? I've suddenly got it in gmail (which
I don't use).
[21:01:00] <mcepl> Temptation
[21:01:26] <Zash> mcepl: lolwut?
[21:01:46] <Zash> Wasn't GVoice SIP n' stuff
[21:04:04] * sonny joined the chat.
[21:04:21] * hawke joined the chat.
[21:06:02] <mcepl> http://code.google.com/p/google-voice-java/ ... hmm
[21:14:21] * Asterix left the chat.
[21:23:19] * marseille left the chat.
[21:25:39] * sonny left the chat.
[21:31:22] <Tobias> stpeter, how can it use pipelining, before it knows about its support? or is that based on memory from older sessions?
[21:33:50] <Tobias> ah..nvm..just read the paragraph in front of the example :)
[21:36:11] <stpeter> Tobias: it's a very rough draft but acceptable for discussion purposes
[21:37:02] <stpeter> on a related topic, http://code.google.com/speed/page-speed/docs/rtt.html is mildly interesting
[21:38:48] <Tobias> stpeter, steps 4 and 5 can happen at the same time right? i mean as soon as TLS is negotiated client can start authenticating
[21:39:14] <Tobias> it just uses the best mechanism based on last sessions available mechanisms
[21:40:32] <darkrain_> 1) if there were any
2) if you're willing to trust that list of mechanisms
[21:40:49] <darkrain_> (unrelated to any questions of whether the protocol itself allows that)
[21:41:07] <Tobias> if you don't trust it now, why did you trust it back then?
[21:42:24] <stpeter> heh
[21:43:01] <darkrain_> oh, last established session, not the pre-TLS methods. sorry, misunderstood :)
[21:43:23] <Tobias> right :)
[21:43:27] <darkrain_> I wonder what servers do if a client attempts to auth with $random_unsupported_method
[21:43:28] * tkoski joined the chat.
[21:43:30] <darkrain_> *mech
[21:43:51] * tkoski left the chat.
[21:43:54] <Zash> Per layer <stream:features/> should be moderatly cachable
[21:43:57] <Tobias> darkrain_, fail of course :), servers not supporting that XEP
[21:44:45] <darkrain_> Tobias: I would hope they fail (and not allow PLAIN even if it's disallowed by local policy), but I more meant "hard fail
or soft fail?" :)
[21:45:20] <Tobias> soft fail? isn't there an error for selecting a mechanism which isn't allowed
[21:45:26] <Tobias> XMPP level stream error
[21:45:40] <darkrain_> See? stream error sounds too harsh! :)
[21:46:05] <Tobias> what do you want? stream waring ala error-try-again :P
[21:46:11] <darkrain_> oh good, sasl invalid-mechanism error :)
[21:46:54] <Zash> :)
[21:48:13] <stpeter> brb
[21:51:34] <darkrain_> I think my question still stands, of I wonder what Actual Real World Deployments(TM) do :)
[21:52:25] <Zash> netcat!
[21:53:05] <darkrain_> I'd rather spend the time and write a proper XMPP fuzzer!
[21:53:18] <Zash> netcat < /dev/urandom
[21:53:49] <darkrain_> Yes, in the limit I guess that qualifies as a proper XMPP fuzzer. :P
[21:56:11] * mcepl left the chat.
[21:56:44] * po left the chat.
[22:00:28] <Tobias> cool thing is that this on can be used in BOSH environments too
[22:03:54] * guus left the chat.
[22:07:41] <Zash> Not enough
[22:08:25] * xnyhps left the chat.
[22:08:25] * xnyhps joined the chat.
[22:11:02] * nielsvh left the chat.
[22:13:37] * naw left the chat.
[22:26:39] * deryni joined the chat.
[22:31:40] * po joined the chat.
[22:32:45] * po left the chat.
[22:34:22] * po joined the chat.
[22:34:31] * po left the chat.
[22:47:42] * stpeter left the chat.
[23:06:30] * Zash left the chat.
[23:28:38] * hawke left the chat.
[23:44:58] * Tobias left the chat.
[23:57:16] * desmoy joined the chat.
[23:57:59] * desmoy left the chat.
[23:59:56] * Florob joined the chat.