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[09:57:34] <louiz’> I do not clearly get the point of Acks part of the stream management XEP. What are the concrete uses?
[09:59:45] <Tobias> the are half traffic friendly pings/keep-alives and half acks, so you know the last X messages have been received by the server and succefully processed
[10:02:06] <louiz’> if I send a message to an non-existant host (for example to="FAKE"), then that doesn’t count as an handled stanza, right?
[10:02:12] <Alex> louiz’: there are scenarios where you can loose stanzas over the internet, even if tcp/ip should be reliable
[10:02:57] <Alex> acks help you to detect packet loss, or make sure that no packets got lost from c2s
[10:03:40] <Alex> lunch time, back later
[10:04:02] <louiz’> and what are you supposed to do if you discover that one stanza from the last 10 sent stanza was not received?
[10:04:21] <louiz’> you cannot do much about it…
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[11:09:14] <Kev> louiz’: XMPP is layered over TCP, so you guarantee that everything is received up until the point that nothing is received.
[11:09:22] <Kev> So you don't miss individual stanzas.
[11:10:02] <Kev> Once the stream is lost, you know how many acks were received, which stanzas weren't acked, and when you resume the stream you know exactly where to leave off from, or which messages to tell the user weren't received.
[11:10:09] <Kev> 198 is per-hop, if that wasn't clear.
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[11:17:34] <Alex> louiz’: and when you ack every stanza you also know exactly when it was delivered. This can be also important for many applications, or when you have very low bandwidth or high latency
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[11:17:55] <Kev> If you have *very* low bandwidth, you probably don't want to be acking at all :)
[11:18:43] <Kev> Before I started at Isode, I thought mobile phones (or 2G anyway) was low bandwidth...now not so much :)
[11:24:35] <Alex> Kev: I mean when you are on low bandwidth and have the requirement of receipts then it ideal, because it produces much less traffic than the extensions we had before. And with compression enabled it should be only 1 extra byte out and 3 or 4 for incoming acks, which is still OK
[11:24:52] <Kev> Right - kinda.
[11:25:54] <Kev> The problem with very low bandwidth links (by which I'm really talking about HF radio) is that only one node can transmit at a time - so servers communicating over HF will have their throughput damaged if they keep trying to send acks between themselves.
[11:26:07] <Kev> But this is a fairly specialised edge case anyway. What you say is generally true :)
[11:26:48] <Kev> (And as when you're doing HF work you don't use TCP, it's a somewhat different problem)
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[11:47:08] <louiz’> Kev, if you ack only once every 5 stanza, if you lost connection say et the 13th stanza, when you resume the stream, you resend also the 11, 12 and 13, even if they were already received, since they were received but not acked, no?
[11:47:57] <Kev> No, because 198 resumption doesn't really work like that (and I shouldn't have implied it does) - it negotiates what the last stanza seen by each end was.
[11:48:53] <Kev> You need the acks to know how much of the buffer you can get rid of.
[11:48:59] <Kev> (When using resume)
[11:49:14] <louiz’> ah, ok.
[11:50:56] <louiz’> if you receive an ack at the 10th stanza, you can remove the 10 first stanza from your memory, right? And if you send 5 more stanzas but only 3 are received (but not acked), when you resume, you negotiate and the server says “I have received 13” and then you send the 2 missing. Right?
[11:54:51] <Kev> Pretty much, yes.
[11:55:05] <louiz’> ok, thanks
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[12:42:36] <akuckartz@jabber.ccc.de> Hi
[12:42:45] <akuckartz@jabber.ccc.de> Something completely different:
[12:43:15] <Kev> And now for something...
[12:43:24] <akuckartz@jabber.ccc.de> Which Open Source XMPP projects with a web client do you recommend?
[12:43:43] <akuckartz@jabber.ccc.de> (Something like Google+ would be ok;-)
[12:43:57] <louiz’> you mean, which open source jabber web client do we recommend?
[12:44:05] <akuckartz@jabber.ccc.de> yes
[12:44:08] <louiz’> jappix
[12:44:39] <akuckartz@jabber.ccc.de> ok, I know that this is PHP but there is a plugin for OpenFire
[12:44:57] <akuckartz@jabber.ccc.de> Anything Java or nodejs?
[12:45:16] <louiz’> that’s not related to openfire at all, and that’s in JS.
[12:45:53] <akuckartz@jabber.ccc.de> http://community.igniterealtime.org/docs/DOC-2195
[12:47:15] <louiz’> I don’t know what that plugin does, but that’s not needed unless openfire is missing some features.
[12:49:01] <akuckartz@jabber.ccc.de> OpenFire is Java and Jappix is implemented in PHP as far as I know
[12:49:48] <louiz’> OpenFire is a serve and jappix is a client
[12:50:13] <louiz’> and jappix only has a few php line. Most of the code is JavaScript
[12:50:14] <Link Mauve> And Gajim is in python, and Empathy in C, but they all work together.
[12:51:05] <louiz’> that’s what XMPP is made for
[12:53:37] <akuckartz@jabber.ccc.de> If Jappix only contains of a few lines PHP it should be "easy" to migrate that to Java
[12:53:44] <akuckartz@jabber.ccc.de> Maybe I will have a closer look at that
[13:00:16] <louiz’> why would you want to migrate that to java?
[13:00:21] <Link Mauve> akuckartz@jabber.ccc.de, my goal is to make a server-side-less version of Jappix, possibly with compilation to static HTML files.
[13:00:25] <louiz’> why do you need java?
[13:01:31] <akuckartz@jabber.ccc.de> I would like to integrate that in a more comprehensive web application which is implemented in Java
[13:02:18] <akuckartz@jabber.ccc.de> It might be ok if I can simply plug-in some JavaScript files
[13:03:03] <Link Mauve> You actually can.
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[13:06:05] <Link Mauve> For Jappix Mini, download the script you would add to your page, and you have the static file.
[13:06:08] <Link Mauve> Enjoy!
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[16:44:13] <Jon Kristensen> does ejabberd has scram support? i can't find anything about it
[16:44:31] <Jon Kristensen> /me is considering to switch to prosody im
[16:44:44] <Kev> I don't *think* so.
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[18:11:44] <Jon> could someone let me know of an xmpp client with debug/xml console support that can use scram to log in?
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[18:12:05] <Kev> Swift.
[18:12:15] <Jon> oh, haha
[18:12:31] <Jon> and i was downloading and trying out psi :)
[18:12:38] <Jon> already running swift
[18:12:54] <Kev> Psi doesn't do SCRAM.
[18:13:04] <Jon> yeah, i noticed :)
[18:13:20] <Jon> bbl
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[18:19:39] <Jon> worked great
[18:20:18] <Kev> Don't sound so surprised.
[18:20:33] <Jon> :)
[18:20:59] <Jon> well, i've been running ejabberd and empathy for a while... i don't really expect anything to go smoothly
[18:21:20] <Jon> no, i shouldn't say that
[18:21:52] <Jon> but i've run into some serious problems with both of them
[18:22:25] <Jon> /me should know better than to flame
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