Logs for jdev

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[07:14:12] <Jon Kristensen> rfc 6120 states that a client should not consider the stream negotiation to be complete until all strean features are voluntary-to-negotiate. does that mean that a client should check for required in unknown features? (features beside tls and sasl)
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[07:38:01] <Alex> Jon Kristensen: I don't know any software which is doing this, but it may be possible that eg. a custom server requires a feature which is unkown by many other clients.
[07:39:18] <Jon Kristensen> aha, yeah. it's not that hard to check for it :)
[07:39:57] <Jon Kristensen> thanks
[07:41:27] <Alex> yaes, but I have seen many server that even don't enforce required features
[07:42:45] <Jon Kristensen> ok
[07:48:13] <Alex> GTalk for example, TLS is required, but I am ablso to connect without when using GOOGLE-X-TOKEN Sasl mechanism
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[07:49:20] <Jon Kristensen> interesting
[07:50:31] <Alex> the only want to enforce that you don't sned plain text passwords, which means either TLS + SASL Plain or no TLS and XTOKEN
[07:51:01] <Alex> which is not possible with the current stream features and required only.
[07:52:03] <Jon Kristensen> gotcha
[07:52:03] <Kev> Right - this does't harm compliant clients, though (those that negotiate TLS because they're told to).
[07:52:14] <Alex> we would need required with conditions ;-)
[07:52:37] <Alex> Kev: and those which are jnable to do TLS
[07:52:48] <Jon Kristensen> tls is required, is it not?
[07:52:49] <Kev> Well, those unable to do TLS aren't XMPP-compliant :)
[07:52:54] <Alex> there are still platforms where no TLS is available
[07:53:39] <Jon Kristensen> hehe, right
[07:53:40] <Alex> I know many people which use tiny devices which have no TLS stacks
[07:53:54] <Jon Kristensen> well, for me, i only care about being strictly conformant to rfc 6120 at this point
[07:54:49] <Jon Kristensen> i'm currently looking to implement certificate validation. do you think i should go for crl or ocsp?
[07:55:28] <Jon Kristensen> ocsp seems like a more powerful and more modern approach
[07:55:56] <Kev> Both?
[07:56:09] <Jon Kristensen> only one is required, and i just want to be conformant
[07:56:24] <Jon Kristensen> spec says crl and/or ocsp
[07:56:34] <Kev> Well, it depends whether you want to work with places using OCSP or just CRLs.
[07:57:09] <Jon Kristensen> for what i'm trying to build, i don't think it matters
[07:57:19] <Kev> If you don't need either, don't implement either :)
[07:58:26] <Jon Kristensen> but what about the specs? :) my srs says it has to be a valid rfc 6120 implementation... i didn't expect people here to try to talk me out of that ;)
[07:59:16] <Kev> If you know you're connecting to services that use neither OCSP nor CRLs then it doesn't much matter, does it?
[07:59:26] <Kev> If it's some general-use library, it's different.
[07:59:41] <Jon Kristensen> oh, right. i do want my library to become widely used in the haskell community
[07:59:54] <Kev> Then both would be the Best thing to do.
[08:00:11] <Kev> But note that I don't know of any XMPP libraries that do this right, yet.
[08:00:26] <Kev> (Including either of ours)
[08:00:37] <Jon Kristensen> the thing is that i don't have the time to implement both. however, i do feel that i want to implement xmpp core. that's why i ask which one to implement :)
[08:00:59] <Jon Kristensen> if someone needs the other, they are free to patch it up, or wait for when i can get around to it
[08:01:06] <Jon Kristensen> i see
[08:01:10] <Kev> Then pick whichever's easiest :)
[08:01:29] <Kev> Which is probably a CRL, fetched by some other entity and passed to the library.
[08:01:31] <Jon Kristensen> ok :)
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[08:31:55] <Jon Kristensen> why are there presence type in the client namespace schema that belong in xmpp im (such as subscribed, chat, etc? do i have to support them just implementing xmpp core?
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[08:34:33] <jomo> it's there any body
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[08:36:10] <Kev> Jon Kristensen: I believe (without checking) that all the elements are defined in Core, such that IM doesn't extend the schema, just provides semantics.
[08:36:53] <Kev> Jon Kristensen: You have to support any non-illegal XMPP you receive, but you don't have to know how to process it unless it's defined in a spec you support.
[08:42:14] <Jon Kristensen> ok
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[10:37:30] <abhi> ok
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[12:57:10] <edrin> hi
[12:57:23] <swmohsin> hello edrin
[12:57:27] <swmohsin> what's new ?
[12:59:18] <edrin> regarding XEP-0085 Chat State Notifications: the status info is sent as normal <message/>. Wouldn't this result in storing the info messages on the server if the other side goes offline? why isn't "headline" used here? I think these msgs are not stored, are they?
[13:00:09] <swmohsin> that is an interesting question ... i'm not in a position to answer that
[13:02:27] <louiz’> well, yeah, there’s still the issue of the server storing messages that do not need to be. For example messages with only a chatstate element are stored in MUC histories. And the are resent to the users joining the room afterwards
[13:02:57] <edrin> that's what I mean
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[13:03:49] <louiz’> ok. Prosody has a patch to not store messages with no body. But that’s not the perfect solution
[13:04:39] <edrin> sure
[13:05:20] <edrin> "headline"-type msgs, are they supposed to be stored (according to the RCF) ?
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[13:06:56] <louiz’> they are not supposed to be sent to a MUC, I believe.
[13:10:29] <louiz’> I think we should write somewhere (in a informational XEP?) what kind of <message/> stanzas should be kept in history and which may not
[13:13:09] <edrin> yes, sound like a good idea
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[13:54:43] <swmohsin> hey kev ... u da man
[13:55:13] <Kev> I am *a* man, certainly.
[13:55:21] <swmohsin> i wish you could write a definite guide for prosody
[13:55:26] <swmohsin> *definitive
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[13:55:42] <Kev> Given that I work on a different server, that seems unlikely :)
[13:55:49] <swmohsin> oh really ... which server ?
[13:56:09] <Kev> http://www.isode.com/products/m-link.html
[13:57:05] <swmohsin> cool ... i hope it has a great admin interface
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[13:58:32] <Kev> Getting better over time.
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[13:59:59] <swmohsin> although the lack of community support etc ... but sorry to say that here but my ex ( ie. openfire) had an excellent admin tool
[14:00:56] <louiz’> if you buy m-link, I suppose you want MORE than community support ;)
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[14:01:44] <Tobias> swmohsin, yeah...but what's a good web interface for if the core isn't that good or up to date
[14:02:05] <Kev> swmohsin: Some of the tasks that the Openfire's admin interface provides are presented nicely, yes.
[14:02:33] <swmohsin> tobias: you are partially right
[14:03:32] <swmohsin> for the people who come from windowing background .... these things matter, but i'm catching up on linux stuff ... sudo ps blah blah
[14:04:32] <swmohsin> for example ... my current task is to write a component from prosody that will listen for xep-0080 stuff and updates a custom database table
[14:04:56] <Tobias> yeah
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[14:07:13] <Jon Kristensen> hi Neustradamus :)
[14:09:32] <Jon Kristensen> does the xml schema and xs:restrictions of xmpp core allow for other presence or message types than the error, probe, ... and away, chat, ...? it doesn't look that way
[14:10:00] <Jon Kristensen> if not - how can my client validate against the xml schema and at the same time allow for arbitrary types for future interoperability?
[14:10:13] <swmohsin> tobias: so i'm totally ignorant of writing a component for prosody
[14:11:17] <swmohsin> zak helped me on the prosody channel about hooking prosody plugins and writing basic stuff in lua.
[14:11:20] <Kev> Jon Kristensen: When you extend, you don't extend stuff in the XMPP namespaces.
[14:11:26] <Kev> You have to use your own namespaces.
[14:11:41] <Kev> So you can't inject new values into an existing attribute.
[14:11:50] <swmohsin> but i want to write a component instead of a plugin to avoid tight coupling ... can you guys point me to the right direction of writing a component for prosody (or for that matter for any other server)
[14:11:53] <Kev> But you can add new (namespaced) children.
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[14:12:00] <Jon Kristensen> oh, ok
[14:12:58] <Jon Kristensen> i thought i read that clients should allow for unknown types somewhere... i'm trying to find it
[14:13:08] <louiz’> nope
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[14:17:32] <Jon Kristensen> i don't find it now, perhaps i was confusing it with allowing unknown error types. well that's good then :)
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