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[12:25:31] <Hermitifier> Hello
[12:26:59] <Hermitifier> I thought I found a bug in ejabberd
[12:27:41] <Hermitifier> But actually it worries me as a logic flaw in RFC
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[12:28:43] <Hermitifier> When I am invisible with a simple privacy list, I do not receive presence updates from some contacts (they are on latest ejabberd)
[12:29:00] <Kev> Well, that's correct, isn't it?
[12:29:18] <Kev> If you're not sending them presence, they're not going to send you presence.
[12:29:31] <Hermitifier> But they do.
[12:29:44] <Hermitifier> And what's worse - only the initial presence
[12:30:02] <Hermitifier> Instead of people coming and going, I see them only signing in.
[12:30:15] <Kev> Pretty much anything could happen if you have presence-based privacy lists.
[12:30:24] <Kev> Have I mentioned recently that privacy lists are evil?
[12:30:24] <Hermitifier> Over the day, my roster accumulates lots of ghost presences
[12:30:42] <louiz’> privacy lists are evil? Why?
[12:30:49] <louiz’> because that’s complicated?
[12:31:09] <Kev> louiz’: They're an excellent method for not solving the problems one thinks they're solving with them.
[12:31:27] <Hermitifier> They aren't thought out carefully enough.
[12:31:45] <Kev> Privacy lists for message stanzas are fine, although over-complicated when all you really want is user blocking.
[12:31:53] <Kev> For presence they're not good.
[12:32:01] <louiz’> how does they not solve the problem “appear offline for that group”?
[12:32:05] <Kev> Hermitifier: Right, that's why they got removed from XMPP-IM :)
[12:32:39] <Hermitifier> Kev: maybe so. But the general agreement not-so-long ago was : "forget presence type invisible, use privacy lists"
[12:32:41] <Kev> louiz’: Oh they do, exactly.
[12:32:51] <Kev> Hermitifier: Not for a largish number of years :)
[12:33:08] <louiz’> so, that’s good for at least this problem
[12:34:02] <Kev> Yes, there are many things you can do with privacy lists.
[12:34:13] <Kev> All the things specified in the XEP, strangely enough.
[12:34:30] <Hermitifier> Kev: not exactly. Using privacy list for “appear offline for that group”, means also you may not receive their presences as
well
[12:34:56] <Kev> Hermitifier: yes, it does exactly what it says on the tin. Other behaviour may or may not be what you want, but you *will*
appear offline to that group.
[12:34:58] <jonas> is there even a "correct" xep for "appear offline for that group but receive presences"?
[12:35:03] <Kev> jonas: No.
[12:35:08] <jonas> is it even possible?
[12:35:14] <Kev> Yes, by and large.
[12:35:15] <jonas> on a federated network
[12:35:29] <jonas> where you can't trust a server to do what you tell it to
[12:35:35] <jonas> I mean other servers than your own
[12:35:40] <Kev> As long as you realise you may end up leaking presence anyway.
[12:35:58] <jonas> well, with the requirement of not leaking presence, I mean
[12:36:38] <Kev> If your server does irregular and frequent presence probes for everyone, irrespective of whether you're online or not, then
you can mask it.
[12:36:54] <Kev> I think this would be a fairly bad idea.
[12:37:04] <Hermitifier> Not if other servers don't reply for unavailable users
[12:37:20] <Kev> Hermitifier: Explain?
[12:37:41] <jonas> yepp, that sounds like a bad idea (flooding network with presence probes)
[12:38:27] <Hermitifier> Kev, nevermind. with timeout you can mask indeed.
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[12:39:01] <Hermitifier> But that's would be even worse than sending broadcasts regardles of offline/online status.
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[12:57:26] <sonny> weird question: does someone have an idea on what's the name of an XMPP public service that runs ~40 000 users based (according
to whois) in the USA, Arizona state ?
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[14:51:49] <sonny> hey guys what feature would you like to see on a SMTP gateway ?
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[18:19:41] <tsudot> Hey stpeter :)
[18:20:03] <stpeter> hey
[18:20:25] <tsudot> I have some confusion about xep 0158, pm?
[18:20:42] <Kev> Or you could just ask here :)
[18:20:50] <tsudot> Sure :)
[18:21:08] <tsudot> http://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0158.html
[18:21:23] <stpeter> thanks, I'm eating lunch but will reply as I'm able
[18:21:41] <tsudot> 3.2.1 point #7 says that a 'cid' must be included
[18:22:06] <tsudot> But the example states it as a 'challenge'
[18:22:14] <tsudot> which one is correct?
[18:22:48] <Kev> Typically the text is normative and the examples are illustrative.
[18:23:10] <tsudot> So I should go with the text?
[18:23:21] <stpeter> where is 3.2.1?
[18:23:26] <Kev> 3.1.2
[18:23:29] <stpeter> you mean 3.1.2?
[18:23:30] <Kev> I expect.
[18:23:32] <stpeter> ok
[18:23:33] <stpeter> :)
[18:23:43] <tsudot> Sorry my bad :|
[18:23:48] <tsudot> 3.1.2
[18:24:47] <stpeter> http://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0158.html#registrar-formtypes-captcha has "challenge" as well
[18:25:02] <stpeter> as does http://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0158.html#registrar-formtypes-register
[18:25:07] <stpeter> so I think 'cid' is wrong
[18:25:47] <Kev> Which does Gajim/ejabberd use?
[18:25:49] <stpeter> in fact the version history says:
Version 0.10 (2008-08-06)
Modified examples to track changes to XEP-0231; to avoid confusion with cid URIs, changed name of challenge ID form field
from cid to challenge.
[18:26:15] <tsudot> Ok, thanks for clearing it up :)
[18:26:32] <stpeter> Kev: not sure
[18:26:52] <Kev> If the intent is clear, it doesn't matter.
[18:27:01] <Kev> I thought there was going to be some doubt :)
[18:27:15] <stpeter> Kev: given that this comes from the server, I think gajim would just show whatever is in the form (that's why we have forms
in the first place, after all)
[18:27:34] <stpeter> I'll ask on the ejabberd list
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[18:32:19] <stpeter> I've posted to ejabberd@jabber.ru, will let you know what I find out
[18:33:03] <tsudot> stpeter, Sure, thanks :)
[18:37:08] <stpeter> brb
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[18:44:55] <stpeter> ok I think it's time for a brief walk, bbiab
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[19:11:30] <stpeter> ah, that was a good idea :)
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[19:26:23] <stpeter> aha, I found it in the source code (line 94 of ejabberd_captcha.erl):
?VFIELD("hidden", "challenge", {xmlcdata, Id}),
[19:27:00] <stpeter> /me fixes the spec bug
[19:38:47] <stpeter> heh, it seems that the hsxmpp library has moved and the new site is http://חנוך.se/hsxmpp/ -- IDNs FTW ;-)
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[19:42:01] <louiz’> aha, nice hostname :D
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[19:44:32] <stpeter> hi mlundblad
[19:44:40] <mlundblad> hi
[19:44:49] <deryni> Nice way to get a domain for your name.
[19:45:26] <stpeter> louiz’: although in fact a Google search for Magnus (the developer of hsxmpp) shows http://xn--9dbdkw.se/ instead of http://חנוך.se/
[19:48:05] <louiz’> yeah, and also, not a lot of people can enter that URL with their keyboard layout…
[19:48:30] <louiz’> that’s the main reason why I wouldn’t use none-ascii in my domain names…
[19:48:31] <stpeter> right :)
[19:52:02] <stpeter> although I'm tempted to get ᏚᎢᎵᏋᎢᏋᏒ.im (using Cherokee characters :)
[19:52:09] <deryni> Like those non-ascii TLDs they added last year?
[19:52:39] <louiz’> which ones?
[19:52:47] <stpeter> well, if you lived in Korea or someplace like that, ASCII might be difficult to enter on a keyboard
[19:53:13] <deryni> Three Arabic ones, though there may be more at this point. I don't know.
[19:53:19] <mlundblad> speaking of TLDs, the TLD for Georgia in georgian translitterates as ".ge", which makes little sense, as it's called "Sa'khartvelo"
in georgian
[19:53:28] <louiz’> hum, I suppose they have some easy way to enter them… I guess
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[20:00:31] <Neustradamus> stpeter: it is not a news that you would like to have ᏚᎢᎵᏋᎢᏋᏒ.im ;)
[20:00:40] <stpeter> :P
[20:01:12] <louiz’> buy it before I do and pretend I’m you :p
[20:01:20] <stpeter> sure!
[20:01:30] <stpeter> unfortunately, the .im domains are expensive to register
[20:01:32] <stpeter> so one is enough
[20:01:36] <Neustradamus> louiz’: :D
[20:15:46] <sonny> stpeter, really? I got mine for ~15$
[20:16:21] <sonny> (not recently anyway)
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[20:23:14] <louiz’> for a year? That’s expensive :p
[20:24:41] <sonny> Well I thinking about getting an .io domain it 70$ per year :-/
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[20:26:45] <louiz’> :/
[20:27:14] <louiz’> you don’t want to write a lib that does input/output, with this price…
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