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[07:38:16] <arthur56731> hello.what port jabber.org with ssl ?
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[07:38:34] <arthur56731> cant connect from mobile
[07:38:48] <arthur56731> without ssl - connect ok.
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[07:40:38] <aaaa> 1004
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[07:45:18] <Kev> arthur56731: Your client should be doing STARTTLS on port 5222.
[07:45:45] <Kev> If it doesn't support the standard properly, we also have a nonstandard TLS wrapping on port 5223.
[07:47:16] <arthur56731> client bombus, "use ssl" checked. tryed port 5223 - hangs.
[07:47:39] <arthur56731> on 5222 withous ssl- works.
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[08:00:56] <arthur56731> bye.need java client with starttls
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[13:56:11] <coward26868> I've created a conference room on conference.jabber.org, and we are connecting via Pidgin and google talk ID's. In my pidgin client the chat room text periodically repeats. It will just be sitting there, and then the room will scroll/refresh and reprint the collection of messages in the conference room. Is this a config thing, or a problem with pidgin or any other ideas?
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[13:57:10] <Link Mauve> Can you try with another server?
[13:57:32] <Link Mauve> gmail.com is known to have problems with chatrooms.
[13:59:15] <Kev> coward26868: The problem is specifically that the Google Talk server is sending a message to the room saying "This user wants to join the room" every X minutes (I think 5). So the room essentially thinks "Well, I thought they were already here, but there must have been a network error so I'll rejoin them", which leads to you going through the join process all over again, one symptom of which is repeated history.
[13:59:43] <Kev> As Link Mauve says, Google Talk is the only known server to have this bug.
[14:01:41] <coward26868> ahhh nice, that would explain it. By a different server do you mean using a different login user (i.e., not going through gtalk)?
[14:01:42] <Tanguy> I did not know that, good to know.
[14:01:55] <Kev> coward26868: Yes.
[14:01:57] <Tanguy> This is not the only weird thing of Google's Jabber service.
[14:02:09] <coward26868> nice. yay for compatibility!
[14:02:24] <Tanguy> The most important one, to me, is the fact that they deliver offline messages as if they were email messages.
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[14:02:46] <Kev> Tanguy: They're trying to run a service that, I imagine, has a scary number of users and is run only by them, so some oddities are probably expected.
[14:02:52] <Tanguy> &
[14:02:57] <Tanguy> Oops.
[14:03:17] <Link Mauve> Tanguy, I have some gmail.com contacts that resend the messages as type='error', so no offline message. :x
[14:03:41] <Tanguy> Strange.
[14:04:15] <Tanguy> Another curious thing is that their web client Google Mail only displays avatars for people at Google.
[14:04:36] <Kev> Link Mauve: It's a user option.
[14:05:33] <Link Mauve> Kev, so they disabled offline message?
[14:05:48] <Kev> Didn't enable it, disabled it, I don't remember what the default is.
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[22:34:49] <arthur1778> I'm trying to make rails talk to ejabberd, any resources on this at all?
[22:35:17] <arthur1778> i found ou something about xmpp component, again, no resources.
[22:35:52] <arthur1778> all you get when you googling for xmpp/jabber is the bloody protocol pages.
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[22:44:03] <jameschurchman> depends on how you want them to talk to each other. rails is ruby, ejabbedd is erlang so to talk programming language to programming language you need to do erlagn to ruby, but if its a bot then you can connect using a ruby xmpp client / library to ejabberd and ther is also an xmpp sever plugins protocol i have never used that can be used also
[22:44:37] <jameschurchman> i would google either ruby xmpp ( or jabber) library if you just what to connect as a client
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[22:52:09] <arthur1778> james: thanks. I'm trying to find out the generic architecture people use in realtime web apps. eg, it looks like people use a messaging queue service to have the web app talking to the xmpp server. why do they do that? why doesn;t the web app talk directly to the xmpp server?
[22:53:26] <jameschurchman> i am guessing that they are using the queing system ( is it say rabbitmq? ) as a way of : a)getting ruby to talk to erlang
[22:53:54] <jameschurchman> b) it queues, so smothes out the data a bit .. reduign the point at which you system will overlaod
[22:54:33] <arthur1778> bt message queuing system are not really designed for realtime messages, or are they?
[22:54:39] <jameschurchman> and also queuing can decouple your archeture and allow "message routing" if it allows pieces of code to subscribe to the bits of data it wants adhock etc..
[22:54:58] <jameschurchman> well i guess that depends on how realtime you mean :-)
[22:55:08] <arthur1778> soft realtime.
[22:55:15] <arthur1778> something like this chat.
[22:55:22] <jameschurchman> i guess the answer is no, but aslogan as its quit quck its good enough
[22:55:31] <jameschurchman> yeah id say this chat is not softrealtime :-)
[22:55:41] <jameschurchman> its more human realtime
[22:55:42] <jameschurchman> :-0
[22:55:45] <jameschurchman> :-) *
[22:56:18] <jameschurchman> and so in that case queuing will be fine, it will by its very definition intoduee some unknown duration fo lag, but id say usually it would be under 10 ms
[22:56:30] <jameschurchman> the latency of your internet conection would be many times that :-0
[22:56:59] <arthur1778> so queuing will never be the bottleneck?
[22:57:21] <jameschurchman> well i guess it could be
[22:57:56] <arthur1778> that's not good then.
[22:58:02] <arthur1778> why do people use it!
[22:58:05] <jameschurchman> but it is unlighted to add enough delay for a human to notice unless the messages back up hugely, and in that case if you had no queuing it might crash
[22:58:18] <jameschurchman> well i mean it could be, not that its lighty to be
[22:59:21] <arthur1778> how about the realtime related logic, should they go to the web app, or be developed as xmpp components? is there a good guide on xmpp components?
[22:59:27] <arthur1778> all I find is protocols.
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[23:00:39] <jameschurchman> hmm there are some good books, http://professionalxmpp.com/ this one covers a lot, not just javascript stuff
[23:01:41] <arthur1778> at the beginning of that book, it actually says this book only covers xmpp client with html/css/js?
[23:01:56] <jameschurchman> when you say the webapp you mean your ruby app?
[23:02:23] <arthur1778> no I mean the web application :)
[23:02:24] <jameschurchman> yeah it covers a lot tho, all to do with xmpp its just that all the code is written as an xmpp client
[23:02:36] <jameschurchman> oh the javascript bit?
[23:02:46] <arthur1778> no the server side web application.
[23:03:01] <jameschurchman> oh i see, well it depends on what you need it to do
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[23:03:30] <jameschurchman> if everything can be done by a bot, so just a user that talks to the server like any other then you can do it like that
[23:03:42] <arthur1778> things like, we have a rails user in mysql, how to authenticate this rails user on xmpp server? should I do external auth, should I create an xmpp account for each rails accound? and how?
[23:04:05] <jameschurchman> but if you need finer control and want to do things that cant be done by a bot then it needs to plug in directly
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[23:04:25] <jameschurchman> hmm not sure, i have never done external auto for ejabberd
[23:04:41] <arthur1778> what's 'the bot'? rails being an xmpp client?
[23:04:43] <jameschurchman> there will be for sure guide on how to
[23:04:46] <jameschurchman> yes
[23:04:49] <jameschurchman> exaclty
[23:05:46] <jameschurchman> i would say there is 0 point in duplicating all your auth details, so make it do external auth tho it might take you a few days to do
[23:05:50] <arthur1778> would that bt simply do automated text chat, or can it do more?
[23:06:20] <arthur1778> bot*
[23:07:27] <jameschurchman> yeah not that much more than that really
[23:07:39] <jameschurchman> but its surprising what you can do with only that
[23:08:36] <jameschurchman> + if the user is an admin of say a multiuserchat or the owner of a publish subscribe node, then it can do more than you would expect.. also you can guarante that its was the bot that sent the data, not someone spoofing it
[23:08:37] <arthur1778> I think what I'm looking for would be close to this presentation: http://www.slideshare.net/ca168168/realtime-webwithrailsxmpp
[23:08:51] <jameschurchman> so you can write logic in you app that treats that user as speical
[23:08:56] <arthur1778> see slide 12
[23:09:27] <jameschurchman> yup
[23:09:33] <arthur1778> I don't this the arch in that presentation has a bot, does it?
[23:10:10] <jameschurchman> i cant see why not, user M could be
[23:10:21] <jameschurchman> let me look closer
[23:10:40] <jameschurchman> no infect it cant be done with only a bot
[23:10:42] <arthur1778> M is a bidding moderator, it's a web client.
[23:10:44] <jameschurchman> it looks like
[23:11:04] <jameschurchman> "xmpp comp" is an "xmpp component" so must be talkgin to the xmpp server direclty
[23:11:15] <arthur1778> I think they have put their xmpp logic in 'XMPP Component'
[23:11:18] <jameschurchman> yeah
[23:11:32] <arthur1778> how do you write these xmpp components, in any language?
[23:11:36] <jameschurchman> well
[23:11:44] <jameschurchman> so if you want to embed them direclt into xmpp
[23:11:50] <jameschurchman> then it has to be erlang
[23:12:20] <jameschurchman> but you can either write it as an external xmpp componet ( i have never done so, so don't know how the protocol / interface works)
[23:12:26] <jameschurchman> and doit in any language
[23:12:55] <arthur1778> how does the external component talk to the xmpp server?
[23:12:57] <jameschurchman> or you can interface erlang with any code you want in what ever protocol / style you want
[23:13:10] <arthur1778> is the external language component an xmpp client?
[23:13:17] <jameschurchman> i have idea, basically the xml thats sent gets forwarded out
[23:13:23] <jameschurchman> no
[23:13:44] <jameschurchman> its not but i don't know how it works, it just gets the xml and can do something :-)
[23:14:00] <arthur1778> exactly :)
[23:14:01] <jameschurchman> more than a bot, less than if the code is direclt embded
[23:14:15] <jameschurchman> is there any reason why you want to use ejabberd
[23:14:22] <arthur1778> the resources on this subject is really sparse on the web, and almost no books.
[23:14:44] <arthur1778> yes, high performance.
[23:15:13] <arthur1778> I've been playing with node.js + socket.io. works well in development, but not confident in production.
[23:16:55] <jameschurchman> well as far as i know tigase is the fastest of the lot
[23:17:00] <jameschurchman> hah node.js
[23:17:06] <jameschurchman> oh dear
[23:17:30] <arthur1778> how come facebook uses ejabberd?
[23:17:32] <jameschurchman> personally i use ejabeerd, but that is entirely because of erlang, thats my fav language so that made me pick
[23:17:43] <jameschurchman> ejaberd
[23:18:07] <jameschurchman> but if i did not know erlang i would maybe use tigase, java is much quicker to learn than erlang
[23:18:28] <jameschurchman> well im not sure that they do, and if they do its probably ONLY for xmpp clients, that are not that many users
[23:18:37] <jameschurchman> there main chat app is all in erlang
[23:18:55] <jameschurchman> therefor adding xmpp via ejaberd is sensible
[23:19:22] <jameschurchman> i would guess fb has 10 million + active web chat clients and like 10,000 active xmpp users
[23:19:24] <arthur1778> how can tigase make the integration with the web app server easier?
[23:19:31] <jameschurchman> i would guess jaber.org <http://jaber.org> is much higer
[23:19:43] <jameschurchman> well just coz its java and ppl know java much better
[23:19:47] <jameschurchman> and
[23:19:55] <jameschurchman> you can even run ruby on the jvm
[23:20:06] <jameschurchman> so that would make your ruby to java easier / quicker
[23:20:19] <jameschurchman> lol i don't know your app personally :-0
[23:20:41] <arthur1778> no, that jruby thing is not really useful.
[23:21:13] <jameschurchman> just don't make the mistake of saying "someone said that ejaberd was the fastest so il pick that"
[23:21:45] <jameschurchman> my guess is all will outscale your needs and the rest fo you code will be the bottle next not if you pick ejaberd vs tigase
[23:21:59] <jameschurchman> just pick the one thats best for you
[23:22:02] <arthur1778> sure, is there a benchmark around for xmpp server comparison?
[23:22:22] <jameschurchman> lots of ppl say great things about http://prosody.im/
[23:22:26] <jameschurchman> thats in lua
[23:22:52] <arthur1778> lua is nice.
[23:23:04] <arthur1778> what's the great thing about prosody?
[23:23:09] <jameschurchman> i think people are agesnt that as there are about 1000 variables to take into acount
[23:23:11] <mathieui> it is great.
[23:23:20] <jameschurchman> there will be no one "its the fastest"
[23:23:43] <jameschurchman> there will be "largest number of users online, larges number of messages, larges number of chat rooms"
[23:24:00] <jameschurchman> and then one will run out of ram first, one out of cpu, one out of something else
[23:24:33] <arthur1778> true.
[23:24:44] <jameschurchman> so on two deferent boxes you will get very differet results, if you know what your hardware, network and most importantly load look like
[23:24:57] <arthur1778> the servers which are _not_ written in erlang, how is their fault tolerance?
[23:25:17] <jameschurchman> then if performance is an issue ( and its lightly less than you reckon) then benchmark each one as you expect :-)
[23:25:23] <jameschurchman> not sure :-)
[23:25:36] <jameschurchman> i guess tigase clusters
[23:26:20] <arthur1778> thanks, I'll have a look at other servers too.
[23:27:01] <jameschurchman> yeah its not that i dliske ejaberd, its that it might be easier if your not familure with erlang to integrate your code will java or lua instead :-
[23:27:23] <jameschurchman> ( tho i have 0 idea, i have never even run anything but ejaberd )
[23:27:25] <arthur1778> are these servers standard? ie, is it possible to switch from one to another with the existing code?
[23:27:33] <jameschurchman> yeah i would say so
[23:27:50] <arthur1778> great.
[23:27:57] <jameschurchman> depends on how you wirte it and how much you use of just messaging xml vs how much you plug into their internal api's
[23:28:18] <jameschurchman> if its like 95 % your on logic and generating xml you can change with a 5 % rewirte
[23:28:35] <jameschurchman> if its 95% using the internal api's then it will take longer :-)
[23:44:49] * yuppinturic left the chat.
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