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[10:17:03] <Vlada> hi guys
[10:17:15] <Vlada> anyone here familiar with BOSH ? :p
[10:18:43] <Tobias> just ask
[10:19:19] <Vlada> how often does client have to poll for stanzas over HTTP (BOSH) ?
[10:20:13] <Tobias> it's long polling..so when a current request is responded you start a new one
[10:20:14] <Vlada> is it posible for client to pause for few hours (days) and then make a POST to retrieve list of stanzas waiting and act on them ?
[10:20:30] <Tobias> there is also a timeout attribute at the start of the bosh exchange
[10:20:50] <Vlada> yeah, but timeout defines how long client waits for server, but not vice versa ?
[10:21:43] <Vlada> client makes synchronous POSTs if i understood correctly... server delays answer (if it has no new stanzas for client) up to timeout period, and then returns empty <body/>
[10:22:05] <Vlada> but can client opt to not poll for long period ?
[10:24:08] <Tobias> you mean pausing the session?
[10:24:21] <Vlada> yeah.. somehow :)
[10:25:55] <Vlada> is there a way to pause a session ? :)
[10:36:07] <Tobias> http://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0124.html#inactive
[10:44:39] <Vlada> thanks a lot, Tobias :)
[11:10:57] <Vlada> maxpause value shown in XEP example is 2 minutes, i can hardly expect hours and/or days from server :)
[11:11:17] <Vlada> Tobias: http://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0124.html#session-create
[11:12:08] <Tobias> depends on the implementation i guess
[11:15:22] <Vlada> btw, why does room list on conference.jabber.org takes so much time to load ? :)
[11:21:41] <Tobias> Vlada: because it has thousands of rooms
[11:23:09] <Vlada> but it takes too much time to load
[11:26:15] <Vlada> does jabber.org use ejabberd ?
[11:26:45] <louiz’> no
[11:27:15] <Vlada> would room retrival work better under ejabberd ?
[11:27:15] <louiz’> That’s M-link
[11:31:46] <Vlada> i still dont understand why disco#items on conference takes so much time :)
[11:32:27] <louiz’> how much time ?
[11:32:43] <Vlada> but, anyway - do you know of any xmpp (windows) clients that do serverless xmpp ? :)
[11:33:00] <louiz’> gajim
[11:33:23] <Vlada> well, my psi client (windows) get stuck on one core (utilisation 100% for that single core) and it becomes inresponsive for minutes..
[11:33:42] <Vlada> louiz’: can psi do it too ?
[11:33:55] <louiz’> I don’t know, I never used it
[11:34:28] <Vlada> downloading gajim atm :) its written in python, right ?
[11:34:33] <naw> Vlada: no, psi can't
[11:34:44] <naw> psi can't, at least I have never seen the option
[11:35:05] <louiz’> Vlada, right
[11:35:09] <naw> gajim ys written in python and gtk
[11:35:15] <naw> *is
[11:35:29] <Vlada> installing :)
[11:36:16] <Vlada> btw, is there also a good client for exploring pubsubs ? to do subscriptions and show info, forms, stanzas ? :)
[11:37:52] <Vlada> huh, how to disable localization in gajim..
[11:39:31] <Vlada> lol, louiz’ - you are gajim dev ? :D
[11:39:42] <louiz’> hum, nope, why?
[11:39:50] <Vlada> http://dev.louiz.org/project/gajim_pubsub/browse/log/src :p
[11:39:54] <louiz’> :)
[11:40:11] <louiz’> that’s only a feature that I NEED to do but have not yet the time to :p
[11:40:12] <Vlada> google took me to u :)
[11:40:23] <louiz’> with what keyword? :p
[11:40:34] <Vlada> gajim disable.localisation
[11:40:35] <Vlada> :D
[11:40:45] <louiz’> :D
[11:41:05] <louiz’> also I’m the maitainer of the french translation, but that’s all
[11:41:07] <Vlada> ur #1 on this query :)
[11:41:19] <Vlada> hah, how to disable loc ? :)
[11:41:39] <louiz’> aha, that’s funn
[11:41:40] <louiz’> y
[11:41:57] <louiz’> hum, right click on your account and unselect it?
[11:42:03] <Vlada> ah, right - its gtk, not easy to do :)
[11:42:10] <louiz’> you mean geolocalisation, right?
[11:42:18] <Vlada> no.. just translations
[11:42:27] <Vlada> i'd like GUI in english
[11:42:46] <Vlada> can understand it in myown language.. its too strange :)
[11:42:50] <Vlada> *cant
[11:42:52] <louiz’> on windows, I don’t know :/
[11:43:14] <Vlada> i'll just delete localisation folder :>
[11:43:23] <louiz’> :D
[11:43:40] <Vlada> its gajim/po folder, right ? :)
[11:44:03] <louiz’> right
[11:44:29] <Vlada> Error while adding service. (-65537, 'unknown') Link-local messaging might not work properly.
[11:44:34] <Vlada> what does this mean ? :/
[11:45:30] <louiz’> you might miss the "bonjour" dependency or something
[11:45:47] <louiz’> Try to look in the Help> features menu
[11:47:44] <Vlada> does bonjour work on windows ? :)
[11:48:09] <louiz’> I don’t know :/
[11:49:12] <Vlada> omg it works :) just need to start Bonjour service :)
[11:49:22] <louiz’> :)
[11:49:37] <Vlada> how nice:)
[11:50:01] <Vlada> i wonder if i can try it with second gajim instance on localhost
[11:50:41] <Vlada> hmm.. they dont see eachother
[11:50:50] <louiz’> :(
[11:51:46] <Vlada> ok, this was nice.. what python lib does gajim use ?
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[11:53:54] <Vlada> i've tried enumerating rooms @conference.jabber.org, and now gajim is stuck at 100% of one core..
[11:54:12] <louiz’> Vlada, xmpppy, but modified
[11:54:24] <louiz’> forked and included in the sources
[11:54:50] <Vlada> nice, i hope xmpppy has support for serverless messaging too :)
[11:57:04] <Vlada> cpu is obviously bottleneck for both gajim & psi
[11:57:17] <Vlada> xml seems too much :/
[11:57:19] <Link Mauve> Vlada, conference.jabber.org has a lot of (mostly empty) rooms, so the disco stanza is huge.
[11:57:43] <louiz’> aha, yes, that doesn’t work in gajim, afaik
[11:57:50] <louiz’> but in poezio yes :o
[11:58:04] <Link Mauve> In how many time?
[11:58:16] <Vlada> so problem is in server implementation (time to enumerate rooms), clients (parsing xml) or protocol itself (does not allow paging of long collections) ?
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[11:58:34] <Vlada> it finished few seconds ago
[11:58:41] <jonas> louiz’, on a side note, is poezio nice? i've never tried it but screenshots looks promising
[11:58:54] <mathieui> It is
[11:58:59] <louiz’> hum, it’s a console app :p
[11:58:59] <Vlada> so it took ~5minutes to accept room list
[11:59:07] <louiz’> But I find it nice
[11:59:49] <naw> [13:53:54] <Vlada> i've tried enumerating rooms @conference.jabber.org, and now gajim is stuck at 100% of one core.. the result is over 300kbytes, and other servers will filkter it out
[11:59:50] <louiz’> BUT you might be diappointed if you’re looking for a stable and mature client. It’s still in heavy developpement, but eovlveîng quicly
[11:59:50] <mathieui> just don’t do C-c ²
[11:59:53] <naw> *filter
[11:59:57] <louiz’> mathieui, :D
[12:00:21] <Vlada> 300kbytes is nothing, naw :(
[12:00:42] <louiz’> indeed, but the gtk treeview created with that is HUGE
[12:01:19] <naw> Vlada: but the server has to generate it and the client to parse too apart that to prevent abuses the traffic speed is probably limited
[12:01:26] <Vlada> oh, ok.. but why keep everything in single tree.. it should be some datagrid with pagination :S
[12:02:00] <naw> new xeps allow to paginate the results in xmpp, but they have to ve implemented
[12:02:02] <louiz’> Vlada, that’s possible, there’s an XEP for that
[12:02:14] <Vlada> naw, still it should not be problem :/ its not that much data..
[12:02:14] <louiz’> but jabber.org doesn’t do that
[12:02:33] <jonas> louiz’, does it feel a lot like irssi?
[12:02:40] <Vlada> does ejabberd use pagination for room lists ?
[12:02:42] <Link Mauve> A possible solution would be to remove rooms unused for a long time.
[12:02:43] <louiz’> jonas, yes, that’s the goal
[12:02:57] <jonas> i like irssi.. makes me want to try it
[12:03:07] <louiz’> :)
[12:03:24] <louiz’> In poezio, /list conference.jabber.org takes 4 seconds \o/
[12:03:29] <naw> Link Mauve: yes, it has been requested, but months pass and it still not happens
[12:03:38] <jonas> nice :)
[12:03:42] <Vlada> Link Mauve: but, its general problem.. its not really big number of rooms
[12:04:11] <louiz’> jonas, I’ll be glad to have you feedbacks and feature requests :p
[12:04:15] <naw> besides that, 90%+ of the rooms are empty, so users struggle to find a room with users
[12:04:22] <Vlada> is there an pubsub browser client for xmpp ?
[12:04:24] <louiz’> indeed
[12:04:27] <Link Mauve> naw, it is Isode problem, right? Have they got a bug report?
[12:04:35] <jonas> louiz’, are you the developer?
[12:04:39] <louiz’> jonas, yes
[12:04:49] <jonas> neat.. should really try it then!
[12:04:57] <louiz’> yep :p
[12:05:09] <naw> Link Mauve: I'm not sure, but I talked with mattj and kev long ago about it
[12:05:23] <louiz’> but I’m off for today, so I won’t be there to help you :p
[12:05:38] <Link Mauve> Vlada, I know PsBrowser (in Vala), Egon (in XUL/JS), and I started to write my own in ncurses/JS but it isn’t really usable.
[12:05:41] <louiz’> don’t hesitate to come in poezio@kikoo.louiz.org if you want
[12:06:31] <louiz’> bye.
[12:06:39] <Vlada> well, anything i can execute would be nice for start (egon sounds attractive)
[12:07:05] <Vlada> cu louiz’ & tnx :)
[12:10:42] <Vlada> gee, room list has not downloaded yet.. gajim is still filling-out info (for more than 15 minutes now)
[12:11:44] <Vlada> it definitely should not download everything (only first 10-20 results for start), and allow server side filtering too
[12:13:35] <Vlada> where can i learn more about xmpp transports ?
[12:15:21] <naw> Try http://translate.google.com/translate?js=n&prev=_t&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&layout=2&eotf=1&sl=es&tl=en&u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.jabberes.org%2Ftransportes
[12:15:48] <naw> is an automated translation of an article I wrote long ago
[12:17:18] <naw> needs to be updated, tough, some servers don't exist anymore
[12:17:28] <Hermitifier> This is weird, I cannot even request disco#items from conference.jabber.org at all.
[12:17:50] <Hermitifier> My local ejabberd just drops connection.
[12:18:12] <louiz’> maybe ejabberd filter too long stanzas
[12:18:25] <Hermitifier> Good point
[12:18:31] <naw> Hermitifier: try increasing the stanza size limit to 400bytes or more
[12:18:43] <naw> *400kbytes
[12:19:37] <Vlada> naw, thanks :) i'm reading it :P
[12:20:36] <naw> also, in ejabberd, by default the traffic is limited to 1kbps, so it will take 5+ minutes to rceive the stanza
[12:21:25] <naw> buty jabber.org is an m-link server so it may have different defaults
[12:21:32] <Hermitifier> There is such limiter?
[12:21:38] <Hermitifier> Must be broken on windows.
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[12:21:53] <naw> %% The "normal" shaper limits traffic speed to 1000 B/s %% {shaper, normal, {maxrate, 1000}}.
[12:22:59] <Hermitifier> Ah, but that's default for c2s
[12:23:17] <teo> naw: it's for c2s traffic
[12:23:18] <Hermitifier> s2s uses fast shaper, 50 kB/s
[12:23:28] <naw> but the data will end on a client, so the shaphing applies
[12:23:43] <teo> naw: and only for incoming traffic
[12:23:53] <naw> oh
[12:24:03] <naw> /me goes away, he will be back later
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[12:26:50] <Vlada> performance-wise which is better ejabberd or openfire ?
[12:27:20] <Vlada> i've seen video on youtube, and it seems that openfire is really easy to deploy & configure (via web interface)
[12:27:31] <Link Mauve> I wouldn’t recommand OpenFire to anyone.
[12:29:00] <Link Mauve> It has a lot of issues and isn’t really maintained.
[12:32:53] <Vlada> heh, ejabberd it is :)
[12:35:02] <Link Mauve> I prefer Prosody over Ejabberd. ^^
[12:35:24] <Vlada> btw, are there any mature & maintained c/c++ servers for xmpp ?
[12:37:09] <Link Mauve> There is jabberd14 and jabberd2, but I never used them.
[12:37:19] <Link Mauve> I’m really happy with Prosody.
[12:37:38] <Vlada> prosody is lua project ?
[12:37:57] <Link Mauve> Yes.
[12:38:29] <Vlada> how strange is marriage between xmpp and dynamic languages..
[12:38:43] <Link Mauve> Why?
[12:38:57] <Vlada> i'd expect neckbreaking efficiency w/ real-time servers
[12:39:17] <Vlada> especially those aiming for scalability as xmpp
[12:40:03] <Link Mauve> It’s almost everytime the parser that is the bottleneck.
[12:40:29] <Vlada> parsing and threading :)
[12:40:34] <Link Mauve> Some times ago, Prosody switched from their Lua XML parser to a C one, without much improvements.
[12:41:14] <Vlada> so they are stuck elsewhere :)
[12:41:33] <jonas> Vlada, regarding scalability Erlang was developed with this as major goal, so it makes much sense to write an XMPP server in it
[12:42:00] <Vlada> but, regarding parsing.. xml stanzas are relatively small..
[12:42:30] <Vlada> jonas, true - but erlang was not aiming x86 architecture with its design
[12:42:51] <Vlada> and its still an dynamic language
[12:44:13] <Vlada> back when, joe armstrong was doing his phd it wasnt certain in which direction will hardware parallelism go in years to come
[12:44:29] <Vlada> he opted for message passing with share nothing philosophy..
[12:44:41] <jonas> he still do :P AFAIK
[12:44:41] <Vlada> rest of the world took a different turn :)
[12:46:09] <Vlada> erlang is very interesting in concept, and in case you have specialized hardware to work on (such as ericsson telephone centrals), but on x86, i'd go for cpp :)
[12:46:45] <Vlada> cpp, critical sections, events and other syncing primitives
[12:48:41] <jonas> IMHO, mutexes and such for keeping critical sections undisturbed is not a scalable software design
[12:49:55] <jonas> even when writing C or C++, I think message passing is the most convenient way to write multi-threaded code, and when possible, doing it in Erlang you have almost all crucial parts already there
[12:50:28] <jonas> and I think the support for x86 is probably considered very stable
[12:51:35] <jonas> AFAIK erlang is used actively in the industry on x86, or at least x86_64
[12:52:26] <Vlada> well there have been lots of work on exploring networking patterns and parallelism, i'd suggest: http://www.amazon.com/Network-Programming-Mastering-Complexity-Patterns/dp/0201604647/ref=pd_bxgy_b_img_b
[12:53:26] <Vlada> erlang is good for rapid distributed development, but for high performance - i dont see way around cpp
[12:54:01] <Vlada> specially when it comes to profiling and debugging.. when u need that extra juice hw can give :)
[12:54:02] <jonas> in most applications the crucial parts can be written in a low level language, while most other parts, need not
[12:55:07] <Vlada> for general network server its difficult to estimate where performance bottleneck is going to show-up
[12:55:11] <Vlada> anyway, we are digressing :)
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[12:56:16] <jonas> clearly :)
[13:05:03] <Kev> Vlada: Mature and scalable C/C++ XMPP servers: Isode M-Link.
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[13:06:23] <Vlada> kev, is it free ? :)
[13:06:33] <Kev> No, commercialy.
[13:06:37] <Kev> *commercial
[13:07:25] <Vlada> but, its maintained ?
[13:07:31] <Vlada> & standard compilant
[13:07:53] <Kev> Yes, and I do hope so, I'm one of the devs :)
[13:08:05] <Vlada> nice :)
[13:08:40] <Vlada> kev, btw. i read definitive guide to xmpp - its great book :)
[13:08:46] <Kev> Thanks, glad you liked it :)
[13:09:01] <Vlada> are you one of the authors ? :)
[13:09:07] <Kev> Yes.
[13:09:43] <Vlada> its well written, i liked references to wonderland :)
[13:09:58] <Kev> My testing cluster at home is wonderland.lit.
[13:10:19] <Vlada> hah.. btw, there is nothing about IM transports in book ? :)
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[13:10:50] <Kev> I don't honestly remember if we mention them. It wouldn't surprise me that we didn't.
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[13:12:23] <Vlada> book really clarified xmpp landscape to me. otherwise it would be very difficult to dig through all those rfcs and xeps
[13:12:34] <Kev> That's what we were aiming for.
[13:12:39] <Vlada> where can i find more on transports ? :)
[13:12:48] <Kev> What did you want to know?
[13:13:00] <Kev> You could grab http://spectrum.im for example, and deploy that and play with it.
[13:13:56] <Vlada> i've read naws artictle on net, nad its great.. but more technical detail would be nice (description of stanzas used and their interaction, how is transport encapsulated, and what is expected from an im transport)
[13:15:12] <naw> http://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0100.html
[13:15:20] <naw> something like that? ;)
[13:19:37] <Kev> Vlada: Well, the rough summary is that first you do a registration wit hthe transport through IBR, and then talk to JIDs at the transport as if they were XMPP users.
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[13:24:41] <Vlada> kev, so it would be posible for gtalk user to add msn contact via transport on an xmpp server ?
[13:26:26] <jonas> Vlada, to the gtalk user it would simply be adding a contact with a funny username
[13:27:03] <jonas> where the funny username, in case it's MSN *usually* is email%address@msn.example.com, as if it would be a regular user
[13:27:26] <Vlada> plus, IBR, right ?
[13:27:44] <Vlada> does inband registration have to be performed for each session, or its enough to do it once ?
[13:28:09] <jonas> a user registers to the transport once, and the transport would usually store the MSN password in it's own database
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[13:28:51] <jonas> when the transport notices the user logs on, it connects to the MSN network and translates events there to correspond to XMPP events
[13:29:05] <naw> and I guess that the transports may store them in plain text, at least I think that some did that in the past
[13:29:06] <jonas> AFAIK the google talk client can't register to a transport, but that I'm not sure
[13:29:27] <jonas> yes, at least Py*t did that, if I remember correctly
[13:29:37] <naw> but you should be able to register with psi, and then go back to the google talk client
[13:30:00] <Vlada> but, if we can use psi to register, then gtalk would treat it as funny username, as you said:)
[13:30:06] <naw> that's what some does to talk with msn contacts using ichat
[13:30:15] <Vlada> my thoughts exactly naw :)
[13:30:27] <Vlada> that is nice
[13:30:49] <naw> I would think that gtalk will show the nickname of the conetact instead the funny jabber id
[13:31:07] <Vlada> only part w/ jabber server storing my creds in some db disturbs me, but i guess that is price you pay for convenience
[13:31:24] <jonas> when I had public transports, what I did was to add a web interface to the website, so that users with clients without such features still have a way to register with the transport
[13:32:02] <Vlada> if i delete transport from my roster, are creds on transport server deleted too ?
[13:32:18] <Vlada> does transport server even know that i've deleted his account from my roster ?
[13:33:16] <jonas> my memory is blurry, but I think the transport will be aware of when you unsubscribe
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[13:34:15] <Vlada> hmm.. that is true, but unsubscribing != removing from roster, right kev ?
[13:36:20] <naw> I think that removals from roster almost always imply unsubscriptions
[13:36:47] <naw> at least the client will probably unsubscribe you
[13:37:16] <naw> but you can unsubscribe from a contact without removing him
[13:39:37] <Vlada> hmm.. what will happen if server w/ transport service is down, at time we unsubscribe ?
[13:40:30] <Vlada> will stanzas wait for server to get up, or will it just omit the fact that we have unsubscribed from service :)
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[22:40:22] <darkrain_> Uh oh, Pidgin is becoming sentient
[22:41:34] <psa> heehee
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