Logs for jdev

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[11:55:10] <lobby> hi
[11:55:11] <lobby> all
[11:55:23] <lobby> r u guys really user?
[11:55:29] <studioamk> i think so?
[11:55:33] <lobby> :SA
[11:55:49] <lobby> why am i see alot of junks
[11:55:51] <lobby> beside me
[11:55:56] <studioamk> where?
[11:56:01] <studioamk> i only see you
[11:56:07] <studioamk> we are not alone?
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[11:56:18] <lobby> i think so
[11:56:25] <lobby> just now someone joined
[11:56:30] <studioamk> really..
[11:56:33] <studioamk> i cant see..
[11:56:39] <studioamk> oh.. harry?
[11:56:43] <lobby> lolz.
[11:56:50] <lobby> can I say.. fuck you?
[11:56:57] <studioamk> i guess you can
[11:56:58] <studioamk> lozl
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[11:58:39] <Kevmin> You *can* say it, it doesn't mean you should.
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[12:00:44] <studioamk> hi kevmin..
[12:00:55] <studioamk> we were just testing word filtering..
[12:01:09] <studioamk> sorry about that..!
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[12:06:16] <louiz’> …
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[18:59:23] <justin> what is the usual ordering of pubsub past items?
[18:59:55] <justin> i don't think it's made explicit, but i'm just curious how most nodes seem to behave
[19:03:07] <bjc> they're unordered
[19:04:42] <justin> you mean, most pubsub implementations out there return items in arbitrary order with no consistency?
[19:05:09] <bjc> in ejabberd, at least, it's whatever order the db has
[19:05:17] <bjc> iow, nothing you can count on
[19:05:40] <justin> would it be wrong to stipulate that a node have some predictable natural order?
[19:05:47] <bjc> yes
[19:06:08] <bjc> if you want some kind of order, put it in the payload and sort the items in client code
[19:06:31] <justin> ah, but that really only works if you have all the items
[19:07:02] <justin> i am imagining a microblogging scenario, where you'd want to retrieve the last 10 items ordered by create time or such
[19:07:38] <justin> and use result set management to page further
[19:08:51] <bjc> you might be able to work something with the item id
[19:09:17] <justin> how so?
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[19:10:05] <bjc> use a timestamp in the item id, get the list of items, and only request what you need
[19:12:33] <bjc> hrm. looking at 0060, if it's supported, you can use the max_items attribute to return the n most recent items
[19:12:53] <bjc> section 6.5.7
[19:13:40] <justin> i wonder what recent means in that case. maybe most recently updated
[19:13:45] <bjc> i'm not sure what servers support it, but that'd be what you want
[19:14:32] <bjc> i'd assume published, for consistency with 6.5.5, but it's not specified
[19:15:01] <justin> buddycloud's spec uses result set management, and states that node items are ordered newest first
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[19:18:47] <justin> so, i think it is probably fine for specific uses of pubsub to enforce item ordering
[19:19:01] <bjc> yeah
[19:19:29] <bjc> you just can't count on it between servers
[19:21:22] <justin> i'd still say this is about specific use cases of pubsub and not servers. for example, if the microblog xep says that past items must be ordered by created time, then even if ejabberd were to implement this xep it would need to have ordering
[19:21:57] <justin> but, other uses of pubsub could have arbitrary ordering
[19:22:43] <justin> kev
[19:24:11] <bjc> i'd just use the max_items attribute
[19:24:26] <bjc> no need to add a further specification
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[19:45:44] <justin> i suppose that may work if all that was ever needed was newest items (and only published time or only updated time, whichever it refers to)
[19:46:13] <justin> i believe at minimum both newest published and newest updated are needed for a robust system
[19:54:32] <justin> but i suppose this kind of ordering may require knowledge of item content, and makes it hard to fit into a generic pubsub service
[19:54:45] <justin> but generic pubsub vs "code on a node" is a whole other debate...
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