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[15:08:57] <adityag> Kev_ : why XML is being used & why JSON not being used ?
[15:09:28] <MattJ> Where?
[15:09:55] <adityag> in XMPP
[15:10:40] <MattJ> /me sits on his hands to prevent him spending the next hour giving a lecture
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[15:11:25] <louiz’> because Json sucks
[15:11:37] <louiz’> MattJ, you’re welcome
[15:11:50] <MattJ> louiz’, that doesn't help ;)
[15:12:03] <adityag> MattJ: louiz’: any specific reason or link to support it ?
[15:12:22] <louiz’> :(
[15:12:24] <Kev_> adityag: It is what it is.
[15:12:48] <louiz’> that doesn’t help either :o
[15:12:58] <Kev_> json wasn't a common interchange format when the technology behind XMPP first came about, XML was.
[15:13:30] <Kev_> louiz’: It's the best answer, though. json's less expressive than XML, but it could have been made to do the job.
[15:14:23] <Kev_> That doesn't make it the best idea, *shrug*.
[15:14:49] <louiz’> adityag, and why would have json been better?
[15:15:17] <Zash> If you make JSON do everything XML does, it won't be better than XML
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[15:18:08] <adityag1> louiz’: because XML required a lot of other information
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[15:18:31] <MattJ> and so does XMPP
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[15:21:09] <adityag1> not about XMPP, I dont like the fact that in XML, we need to have starting tag as well as closing tag... So what makes XML
better than JSON ?
[15:21:33] <deryni> You need starting and ending object and array markers in JSON, do you dislike that too?
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[15:22:17] <Zash> https://stpeter.im/index.php/2009/11/08/xmpp-is-not-bloated/ </discussion> ;)
[15:22:22] <Maranda> /me raises an eyebrow Vulcan style.
[15:22:44] <adityag1> deryni: but that takes less usage of bandwidth
[15:23:17] <deryni> Which compression makes all but invisible.
[15:23:17] <Kev_> adityag1: Oh, would you like to show the post-zlib figures on that?
[15:24:03] <Kev_> Bear in mind you need to invent a namespacing system for json beforehand (which likely makes it more verbose than xml).
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[15:25:50] <waqas> fwiw, every namespacing scheme I came up with for json turned it uglier than XML
[15:26:10] <adityag1> Kev_: well, thats a point too. Never thought about it.
[15:26:30] <adityag1> i just wanted to know why XML is preferred over JSON
[15:26:47] <waqas> That was when I was attempting to prototype a json wire format for Prosody. It just doesn't work well.
[15:27:02] <Kev_> waqas: did you try {'v':'<message xmlns="jabber:client"><body>wheee</body></message>'}?
[15:27:13] <Kev_> Copes with namespaces just fine IMO :)
[15:27:23] <waqas> Kev_: I wonder if that would silence the JSON crowd ^^
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[15:29:26] <hanzz> there are also historical reasons
[15:31:06] <hanzz> /me is happy is bandwidth is wide enough to allow him chatting
[15:31:09] <hanzz> *hi
[15:31:51] <Maranda> Erm...
[15:35:42] <adityag1> great guys.
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[16:00:55] <adityag1> dariusH: which idea are you proposing ?
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[19:19:09] <justin> if you want to offer paging through past pubsub items, in various orderings, what is the ideal way of having the client choose
the parameters?
[19:19:36] <Kev_> What do you mean?
[19:20:01] <justin> say i have a collection of items, but it should be possible for the client to retrieve the last 10 most recently created items
[19:20:25] <justin> and also possible to retrieve the last 10 most recently updated items
[19:20:32] <justin> different sortings, basically
[19:20:49] <justin> i'm initially thinking these should be different nodes
[19:21:11] <justin> even if they are all referring to the same source data
[19:23:17] <justin> the other idea would be to pass some config parameters when fetching past items
[19:23:35] <justin> i don't know if there's a documented way to do that though. i only see configuration in the context of subscriptions
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[20:42:20] <justin> Kev_: do you have any opinion on this? it's certainly in your territory, at least wrt buddycloud
[20:46:22] <Kev_> I have almost no involvemente with BuddyCloud :)
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[20:46:40] <Kev_> But my opinion is that nodes should present via MAM, and we should define whatever search mechanisms we need on MAM.
[20:47:21] <justin> link to mam?
[20:47:41] <Kev_> MattJ? :)
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[21:08:57] <MattJ> justin, my opinion is that XEP-0060 should allow <options> to be included with <items>
[21:09:28] <MattJ> justin, I'm using <options> in a couple of apps for filtering subscriptions, e.g. saying "I only want this kind of event"
[21:09:49] <MattJ> and it makes sense that a client should be able to use these filters when retrieving a list as well
[21:10:31] <MattJ> As for Kev_'s suggestion of MAM... I haven't given that much thought
[21:10:37] <MattJ> The in-progress XEP is at http://matthewwild.co.uk/uploads/message-archive-management.html
[21:11:32] <MattJ> s/this kind of event/this kind of item/
[21:12:49] <justin> yes that seems simple enough
[21:14:10] <MattJ> Excellent, I have an ally :)
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[21:14:51] <Kev_> MattJ: It was my suggestion!
[21:15:05] <MattJ> Which one? :)
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[21:15:14] <Kev_> Using MAM on nodes.
[21:15:35] <MattJ> I was talking about <option>, as I said I haven't thought that much about MAM on nodes yet
[21:16:05] <Kev_> Ah, ok.
[21:16:12] <MattJ> It's basically a pubsub search protocol then, and basically the only thing it buys you is searching by publisher and restricting
results by time?
[21:16:25] <MattJ> If that's what's needed, sounds fine
[21:16:52] <dwd> /me wonders about doing disco#search.
[21:16:56] <Kev_> Well, I'm assuming there will be, eventually, other ways of searching MAM, defined in extra specs.
[21:17:06] <Kev_> And one could therefore use those too, if supported and desired.
[21:17:07] <dwd> /me also wonders about disco#inferno
[21:17:11] <Kev_> But yes, in the first place.
[21:18:02] <MattJ> iq:search on MAM archives and pubsub nodes?
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[21:42:57] <justin> one reason i like <options> over differently-named nodes is it keeps the ordering stuff specific to retrieval
[21:43:12] <justin> since ordering doesn't really make sense in non-retrieval contexts
[21:44:41] <justin> you would not subscribe to items in a certain order. subscriptions are implicitly always ordered by last-modified date, in
a sense..
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