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[00:44:29] <user-login> any one are from PT ??
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[17:12:34] <justin> xep-277 supports replies to microblogs by posting the reply to your own microblog along with in-reply-to. i seem to remember some proposals for how replies might make it back to the parent feed (so readers of the parent can find the replies) but i don't know if that went anywhere?
[17:12:45] <justin> in the web world there is salmon for this
[17:13:26] <louiz’> Nope
[17:13:28] <Kev> A second 'replies' node next to the initial node was proposed at one point, I believe.
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[17:19:48] <justin> thanks
[17:20:47] <louiz’> But what buddycloud is doing might replace this XEP, no?
[17:21:00] <louiz’> I hope so, because I think this one is pretty flawed
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[17:22:37] <duck1123> Is there a good link relation if I want to put in my Webfinger user meta that the user has a XMPP account?
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[17:23:03] <justin> louiz’: i am not sure how buddycloud handles replies. but it uses atom in-reply-to, at least
[17:23:20] <louiz’> Yes
[17:24:33] <justin> looks like replies go to the same node
[17:25:24] <louiz’> I think so
[17:25:34] <louiz’> THat’s how you can ban user from posting to it, etc
[17:25:44] <louiz’> That’s the good approch, I think
[17:28:31] <justin> yes. i think it all depends on your use-case, but i believe in most cases you do want that control
[17:29:20] <louiz’> I think the XEP-277 is OK to do a twitter/identi.ca-like, but for a facebook-like (the wall etc), what buddy cloud is doing is far better
[17:30:05] <justin> yeah
[17:30:40] <justin> the way i see it, the big question is who has the authoritative data
[17:30:58] <Link Mauve> No, even for StatusNet-like it isn’t usable, because someone who isn’t in our roster won’t be able to read what we write.
[17:31:13] <louiz’> The pubsub server, no?
[17:31:16] <louiz’> Link Mauve, indeed
[17:33:32] <justin> louiz’: i just mean, if I post to your node then you are the authority. if I post to my node then I am
[17:34:01] <justin> provided in the latter case that there is some unbiased aggregation process
[17:34:23] <justin> (e.g. google crawling and finding the relationship, presenting my replies under your post)
[17:35:42] <louiz’> google will crawl only if there’s a web interface for it :p
[17:36:17] <justin> no reason there couldn't be a xep-277 crawler
[17:36:24] <duck1123> OneSocialWeb kinda has that problem
[17:37:25] <louiz’> justin, but does google crawl something else than the web?
[17:37:47] <louiz’> If why would google have access to my personal node?
[17:37:48] <justin> i was just using it as a hypothetical example
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[17:37:52] <louiz’> he’s not in my roster
[17:37:55] <louiz’> ok :p
[17:38:12] <justin> putting replies on your own node is very webby
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[17:39:15] <justin> this is very common in the semantic web community. nobody cares about notifications or push. there is assumption that some crawler will save the day
[17:39:50] <justin> and this model could be applied to xmpp, not just http
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[17:39:58] <justin> i am just exploring all options
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[17:44:14] <justin> there is a possible hybrid approach: reply on your own node, notify parent node, parent retains copies of replies, and the thread is viewed via parent
[17:44:34] <justin> then the parent can be the authority (delete replies)
[17:44:54] <justin> the reply also still exists at your own node. but then maybe this is not all that useful
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[17:57:50] <duck1123> The one benefit of that approach, is that you are still able to comment on a post when you are blocked. The parent won't link to you, but that doesn't stop you from linking to them
[17:59:29] <duck1123> that was the approach I took with my implementation, at least
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[18:19:33] <justin> duck1123: what is your implementation?
[18:20:33] <duck1123> http://beta.jiksnu.com/ It has basic interop with OneSocialWeb and I'm working on OStatus. (and reading up on Buddycloud)
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[18:21:00] <duck1123> still have quite a ways to go. (and I am not an artist)
[18:22:32] <justin> tried to post comment on website and failed :)
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[18:23:13] <duck1123> well, you're not logged in, that's not 100% implemented, and you shouldn't be seeing that form :)
[18:24:27] <justin> you mentioned expensive verisign so i was going to plug startcom
[18:25:48] <duck1123> saw that in my console. I like startcom. and I've used their free certs before. I need to go get my passport so I can get a better one
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[19:22:11] <justin> duck1123: how does onesocialweb handle replies?
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[19:22:30] <duck1123> it has commenting
[19:22:50] <duck1123> it doesn't really do the top-level replies like twitter/identi.ca
[19:22:58] <justin> yes but what does that mean in terms of nodes and ownership
[19:23:49] <duck1123> this is something I've been arguing about. In the osw version, the node that posted the original post owns the comments
[19:24:12] <justin> buddycloud style then
[19:24:18] <duck1123> The spec supports it either way, but that's just how the current code does it
[19:25:01] <justin> spec supports writing comments from another node? or do you mean something else
[19:25:29] <duck1123> I don't have commenting at 100% yet, but I personally feel that each poster should own it's comments and the original node just has cached copies / links
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[19:27:53] <duck1123> as long as you send a copy to the original node, it'll accept it, but the clients will by default post it to the other node
[19:28:23] <duck1123> the commenting flow will most likely be changing shortly
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[19:30:01] <justin> interesting
[19:30:25] <justin> it would be the responsibility of the client to post to both?
[19:36:54] <justin> this is an issue i've struggled with. i feel like the user should only have to submit once. simpler and would help with atomicity
[19:38:11] <justin> in my implementation, i consider the original post the authority, and so users always post to that node
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[19:39:20] <justin> that service also offers a special node per-commenter, that one can use to retrieve copies of their submissions
[19:42:33] <justin> and the service auto-subscribes commenters to the node. so in a typical case, you comment on a node, and then immediately afterwards you receive a pubsub notification containing what you just did
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[19:43:11] <justin> your server would accept and save that
[19:44:17] <MattJ> It's not like HTTP has solved this issue cleanly either
[19:44:29] <MattJ> Some people prefer blogging responses over commenting
[19:44:41] <MattJ> and trackbacks aren't universally supported
[19:45:25] <deryni> And almost always spam anywhere I've ever seen.
[19:45:50] <Zash> Salmon!
[19:46:05] <MattJ> /me slaps Zash
[19:46:48] <Zash> MAGIC KEYS
[19:46:52] <Zash> AND MAGIC
[19:47:01] <justin> salmon solves atomicity but uses the reverse model of what i described. post to your node, then your node posts to the remote node, i think
[19:48:49] <MattJ> How about... post to your node, on success send some notification to the node you were responding to?
[19:49:00] <MattJ> Then what the original node does is up to it
[19:50:28] <Zash> autosubscribe mentions?
[19:51:18] <justin> MattJ: client sends the notification to the node being responded to?
[19:51:40] <MattJ> Yeah, otherwise it's yet another pubsub extension :)
[19:53:50] <justin> i'm fairly convinced that we can't solve all problems with generic pubsub implementations
[19:54:15] <MattJ> Indeed
[20:00:55] <justin> in my case, the reason i want the user to have his comment is to be able to render an activity page (like a facebook profile)
[20:01:36] <justin> but i also wanted to be able to track changes. so say you post a comment somewhere, but then the owner of that node deletes your comment
[20:01:46] <justin> probably this comment should disappear from your profile page
[20:03:36] <justin> and so i figured, if the conversation node can at any time send notifications to the user's node to control what is there, then maybe the initial posting flow should be: 1) post to conversation node, 2) conversation node tells user node. then the flow is the same all th etime
[20:05:43] <MattJ> waqas, I was thinking of module:add_handler
[20:05:50] <MattJ> Oops, wrong room
[20:06:09] <justin> i haven't found anyone else with this design though, which concerns me (like maybe i'm "doing it wrong"). but could just be different use cases...
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[21:05:42] <justin> duck1123: to confirm, while osw supports posting to remote node and local node (with client responsible for doing both), buddycloud only supports posting to the remote node?
[21:06:35] <duck1123> I don't really know how buddy cloud is doing it
[21:06:50] <MattJ> I think it's too early to say anything about the way buddycloud is doing things
[21:07:02] <MattJ> all the protocol is still being fleshed out and subject to change
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[21:07:29] <duck1123> but yeah, except for with the current implementation, it always posts to the remote node, which then sends the notification back to the other server
[21:08:12] <justin> sends notification back?
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[21:09:26] <duck1123> The server that hosts the original post sends an updated post with a new thread count. From there, you request the node for that post and get all the comments
[21:10:25] <duck1123> if anyone has any strong opinions on how it should be changed, please post on the list
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[21:12:19] <justin> the server that hosts the original post sends an updated post to who? the user that just added a comment to it?
[21:13:36] <duck1123> to all of the subscribers of the original author + anyone explicitly added to the recipients list minus those that don't have access to read the post
[21:14:32] <justin> right, of course. i was just wondering if buddycloud had a solution to the user having a copy of his own data
[21:15:45] <duck1123> that has been a problem with OSW. One of the servers was offline, and no one could access the comments
[21:16:32] <duck1123> it's possible to cache those posts, but the server doesn't currently do that for comment fetching.
[21:17:56] <duck1123> Does anyone know if Buddycloud has to be on a domain other than the root domain, or is it possible to serve it all from the same domain
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