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[07:50:46] <mazzachre> Morning
[07:51:28] <Zash> morrn'
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[09:09:41] <1ntellect> hey guys
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[09:10:22] <1ntellect> does gtalk have support for server components ?
[09:11:15] <Kev> If they did, only the GTalk admins would be able to install them, so it's not terribly useful. I don't believe so, in any
case. I think all their stuff is in-core.
[09:12:01] <1ntellect> Kev: I mean, if I host a component on my server, will other people be ble to add them ?
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[09:13:45] <Kev> It doesn't matter if an XMPP entity is a server or a component, the traffic to it is routed in exactly the same way (until
it reaches the final server).
[09:14:43] <Kev> So GTalk neither knows nor cares that transports.otherserver.lit is a component on otherserver.lit.
[09:14:46] <1ntellect> Kev: I was reading this article - http://www.gabrielweinberg.com/blog/2011/03/imddggg-duckduckgo-chat-bot.html
[09:15:34] <1ntellect> "This is undesirable since google has a limit on the amount of traffic that a single user can generate and the bot would most
certainly cross that limit very easily (since it is a jabber client and not a jabber component). I'm not sure if talk.google.com
allows jabber components (If anyone knows anything about whether this is possible, please do let me know). "
[09:15:42] <1ntellect> hence the question
[09:17:46] <Kev> I believe that is either very badly worded, or indicates a slight misunderstanding.
[09:19:10] <Link Mauve> Why would a client be more limited in bandwidth than a component? In the server policy?
[09:19:34] <Kev> That is the slight misunderstanding.
[09:19:47] <Kev> It wouldn't the remote server has no way of knowing which is which.
[09:20:30] <Kev> However, on some servers a locally connected component is allowed more traffic over the link than a local c2s session.
[09:21:21] <Zash> "However, since the bot connects to our own jabber server, we can always be generous with shaping traffic to it."
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[09:23:29] <Zash> And, they set it up as a google apps domain ^^
[09:24:13] <Kev> Ok, so, it's 1ntellect that's mixing concepts slightly. The linked page (having now scanread it) seems to have it right.
[09:24:42] <Kev> Their component comment *was* about connecting to gtalk directly as a component, not about remote users being on/off a component.
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[09:30:42] <1ntellect> Kev: I am a little confused. What do you mean by connecting to gtalk directly as a component?
[09:31:30] <1ntellect> you mean the component is hosted on the gtalk server?
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[10:07:57] <1ntellect> Kev?
[10:08:33] <Kev> Hmm?
[10:09:42] <1ntellect> did you get that question? I think I got disconnected or something
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[10:09:54] <Kev> /me scrolls up.
[10:09:57] <louiz’> yes, it got sent
[10:10:50] <Kev> Ah, yes. The article you link seems to have an open question in it as to whether you could connect to gtalk over XEP-0114
(although it doesn't word it like this). You can't.
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[10:12:18] <1ntellect> what do you mean by connect to gtalk over XEP-0114 and how is it different from what I asked earlier, i.e. other people adding
my component hosted on my server on their gtalk
[10:12:30] <1ntellect> and talking to it
[10:13:16] <MattJ> 1ntellect, as Kev said earlier, Google doesn't *know* if you use a component or not
[10:13:34] <MattJ> It just hands your server a message and says it is for user@blah
[10:13:37] <louiz’> no, kev is talking about: I have a component and I connect it directly to Google’s server. You can’t
[10:13:43] <MattJ> if "blah" is a component, your server routes it
[10:16:35] <1ntellect> MattJ: I got that part and assumed such. What I didn't get is what exactly do you mean by connecting a component directly
to google's server
[10:17:05] <MattJ> e.g. yourcomponent.gmail.com
[10:17:28] <1ntellect> ah ok
[10:19:35] <1ntellect> Ok, I have a question. I have a web layer where the user registers, and upon registering I want an invite to be sent to that
user on his IM. I have a component bot running using sleekxmpp.
[10:20:23] <1ntellect> currently I just add a record in a db when the user registers on the web, and I have a my python script poll it continuously
and send out invites
[10:20:29] <1ntellect> what is a better way to do this?
[10:20:55] <1ntellect> i.e. the communication between my website and my python bot script
[10:21:38] <MattJ> Either use XMPP on the site, and post to the bot, or use IPC from the server-side web stuff to the bot
[10:21:39] <1ntellect> not that it matters but my website is not on python
[10:22:17] <1ntellect> IPC?
[10:23:05] <MattJ> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inter-process_communication
[10:23:16] <1ntellect> I can't have my component logged in from more than one place right? How do I login both on the site and on the python side
[10:24:13] <MattJ> Whether you can have the component logged in from more than one place is up to your server
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[10:24:29] <1ntellect> oh
[10:24:56] <1ntellect> so it is possible to have it process stuff on the python side and also have it running on the site and have it send out invites?
[10:25:33] <1ntellect> also, the db method that I am currently using, is it a really bad way of doing it?
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[10:30:34] <MattJ> Not really bad, but not ideal
[10:31:05] <MattJ> If you ever have lots of sign-ups, you'll be having bursts of processing, where you could spread the load more evenly
[10:31:23] <MattJ> and if you don't have many sign-ups, you are wasting time polling
[10:33:30] <1ntellect> right
[10:33:33] <1ntellect> thanks MattJ
[10:33:54] <MattJ> np
[10:35:23] <Link Mauve> Using a simple signal-based IPC and sleep, you’ll economize a lot of resources while being as reactive as now.
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[10:38:21] <1ntellect> never done IPC before, but I will check it out, thanks
[10:39:04] <MattJ> IPC covers lots of things, even sockets can be used - which is probably how you are connecting to your database
[10:39:12] <MattJ> so your database library is doing IPC for you :)
[10:39:29] <1ntellect> heh, yea
[10:39:36] <MattJ> If your database supported watching an SQL query, that would be a nice way to do it without polling
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[10:39:47] <1ntellect> so what should I look into to do C# -> python communication
[10:39:51] <MattJ> Unfortunately that's a rather "special" requirement in most databases (though I think the feature is out there in some)
[10:40:17] <Kev> Or you could just send an XMPP message to the component, which sounds much easier.
[10:40:22] <MattJ> I tend to use sockets a lot, but then you have to come up with a protocol
[10:40:24] <1ntellect> or maybe I will use XMPP on the c# side. Sadly there are no decent free .net libraries
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[10:40:26] <MattJ> so... what Kev said :)
[10:40:27] <1ntellect> for xmpp
[10:40:43] <Kev> If your website's in C#, you can probably even use a long-lived connection object to do it.
[10:41:36] <1ntellect> jabber.net looks really old
[10:42:15] <1ntellect> and agsxmpp isn't free
[10:46:22] <Tobias> agsxmpp is free for open source IIRC, Matrix isn't though
[10:46:28] <Tobias> but Alex should know exactly
[10:47:02] <1ntellect> our app is commercial though
[10:47:32] <1ntellect> Matrix is kind of costly :S
[10:54:35] <Alex> here now, yes MatriX is commercial only, agsXMPP is GPL
[10:59:03] <Alex> 1ntellect: I guess there are 3 options for c#,
1) agsXMPP, free when you stay with the GPL model
2) MatriX, commercial
3) jabber-net, free is LGPL licences which is also fine for commercial development
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[11:03:01] <Kev> Or 4) wrap some C/C++ thing (Yes, some people do this for C#).
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[11:06:11] <1ntellect> hmm yea
[11:06:22] <1ntellect> Or 5) move the website to python
[11:06:37] <MattJ> Or 6) move the website, bot and component to Lua!
[11:07:08] <1ntellect> I am using prosody as the server
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[11:07:13] <1ntellect> for now atleast
[11:07:19] <MattJ> Oh yay :)
[11:07:36] <1ntellect> Lua has web frameworks? o.O
[11:07:38] <Alex> if you don't want to spend money, and GPL is no option then take jabber-net, it works fine
[11:08:03] <MattJ> 1ntellect, of course, various assortments
[11:08:37] <1ntellect> Alex: yea, probably. I don't think I need to do much through it. Just send invites for now
[11:09:21] <MattJ> 1ntellect, http://keplerproject.org/ & http://tir.mongrel2.org/home for example
[11:09:33] <MattJ> these are just the first two that spring to mind
[11:09:37] <1ntellect> MattJ: I don't think I know anythone who uses lua for web work
[11:09:39] <1ntellect> :P
[11:09:45] <MattJ> Me neither :)
[11:09:57] <1ntellect> I did like lua when I first checked it a few years ago
[11:10:01] <MattJ> I don't even use it myself (much), but I don't tend to do much server-side web stuff now
[11:10:02] <1ntellect> but I am loving python currently
[11:10:16] <1ntellect> and I love C#
[11:10:43] <1ntellect> MattJ: here is a xmpp lib on lua?
[11:10:47] <1ntellect> *there
[11:10:57] <MattJ> http://code.matthewwild.co.uk/verse
[11:11:20] <MattJ> In need of a release (probably around the end of this month if I have a little more time)
[11:11:40] <MattJ> It has a lot of libs shared with Prosody
[11:12:55] <1ntellect> cool, but I will probably stick to python for now
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[11:13:51] <1ntellect> great work though :)
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[12:28:11] <MattJ> Alex, does Matrix do proxy65?
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[12:32:22] <Alex> MattJ: yes it has proxy65 support. With the next version there will be control which handles all the file transfer stuff automatically.
And I plan to switch to Jingle soon because its much better on fallback
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[12:42:24] <Zash> MattJ: Does Verse do jingle? ;)
[12:48:08] <MattJ> Zash, for file transfer, yes
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[15:38:21] <peter.j> Hi, how do i get an account on the WIKI-page?
[15:39:19] <MattJ> PM me your desired username, your full name, and your email address
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[16:46:29] <wjt> So. Imagine I'm trying to calculate a XEP-0115 hash, but one of the data forms has no FORM_TYPE field (or indeed, there are
two forms with the same type).
[16:47:29] <wjt> What do you folks think the right behaviour would be?
[16:49:10] <wjt> give up and assume the entity has no capabilities? still use the capabilities, but don't cache them? treat the missing FORM_TYPE
field as being the empty string, and hash anyway and hope for the best? (In the two-forms-with-the-same-FORM_TYPE case, just
pick an order and hope for the best?)
[16:50:30] <wjt> we can't cache the hash negatively, because then someone could poison my cache by sending corrupt forms in response to a query
for that hash, and then if you use the hash legitimately I won't get any caps for you
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[16:57:30] <Kev> If you believe the result is invalid, you shouldn't cache it. You're welcome to use it for the current session, if you believe
you can get something useful out of it, though.
[16:57:42] <Kev> (disclaimer, only scanread your comment, sorry)
[16:57:51] <wjt> yeah. i think using the caps but not caching them is the right behaviour in these cases
[16:58:01] <wjt> xep-0004 doesn't actually mention FORM_TYPE in anything except examples, which is nice
[16:59:01] <Zash> xep 4 could use some reviewing
[17:00:04] <MattJ> Prosody uses and doesn't cache
[17:00:18] <Zash> variations of empty fields isn't specified well iirc
[17:00:47] <Zash> eg <field><value/></field> vs <field/> vs no field at all
[17:01:25] <wjt> good point
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