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[14:13:46] <king> Hi
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[15:44:45] <coolidge21354> hello
[15:45:31] <coolidge21354> i'm wondering if someone could help me configure ubuntu empathy to work with my jabber account it keeps saying network error
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[18:23:05] <lenzoid> hmm... users from non-jabber.org servers can't join on channels on conference.jabber.org I suppose
[18:23:26] <lenzoid> that's like it seems to me
[18:23:58] <Kev> lenzoid: No, that's completely wrong.
[18:24:29] <Kev> I'm not using a jabber.org account to speak here. Why do you think that?
[18:25:15] <lenzoid> cause I can't join with my jaim.at ID here.. I dont even get a room list.. nothing.. well, maybe somethings wrong with jaim.at
[18:25:16] <MattJ> 16 of the 20 people here are not using jabber.org :)
[18:25:31] <MattJ> Something has been wrong with jaim.at for a number of weeks
[18:25:59] <MattJ> It randomly works and then randomly doesn't work, when communicating with other servers
[18:26:03] <lenzoid> I dont get any error messages in pidgin.. I might try psi.. maybe it gives errors
[18:27:03] <lenzoid> yeah. I'm thinking about leaving jaim.at once and for all. its starting to annoy me bad
[18:33:36] <lenzoid> well, thanks guys. take care
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[18:34:08] <louiz’> Sinon y'a ed, comme éditeur de texte
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[18:35:02] <Link Mauve> Wrong channel, louiz’. ;)
[18:35:15] <Link Mauve> s/channel/room/
[18:36:12] <louiz’> aha, yes :p
[18:36:59] <misha> louiz’: are you the author of poezio?
[18:37:09] <louiz’> yes
[18:37:31] <misha> can you fix your client to not send type/window notification when you talk to conferences? :\
[18:37:36] <misha> it's rather annoying :(
[18:37:50] <louiz’> What's wrong with that?
[18:38:14] <Link Mauve> misha, it’s a configuration option.
[18:38:29] <misha> we've discussed it already with stpeter. it's VERY useful when you talk in private. but it's useless in general chats like that
[18:38:37] <louiz’> also, did you know that there is the room poezio@kikoo.louiz.org waiting for ANY comment from you or anyone? :D
[18:38:40] <Link Mauve> And I think it’s very useful, especially when other clients will support that.
[18:38:43] <louiz’> Why is it useless?
[18:39:17] <misha> because it's useless to see typing notification in _public_ rooms, it's useful in private conversations
[18:39:32] <louiz’> I don't see why it's useless. I find that useful.
[18:39:39] <louiz’> It could be even more customizable, by allowing to disable chatstates ONLY in mucs, though.
[18:40:14] <misha> when i do private - I care about this person. when I use public rooms i *don't* care about notifications which distract me from other rooms
[18:40:39] <misha> well, it sounds rather rude, but i can't describe it other words, my english is pretty poor
[18:40:56] <Link Mauve> misha, it is only shown if you are in the room where the person will speak.
[18:41:07] <Link Mauve> Else you won’t see that someone will speak.
[18:41:15] <Link Mauve> s/Else/Elsewhere/
[18:41:20] <louiz’> Ok, then I guess I could make that configurable.
[18:41:35] <misha> yes, but I on many rooms. and when I attracted to other rooms I see *your* typing notifications in my status bar
[18:41:44] <louiz’> misha, you should complain to Empathy devs, too ;)
[18:41:54] <Link Mauve> misha, isn’t it a problem with your client, which sends you notifications even if you are in another tab?
[18:42:06] <misha> there are only 2 clients that i'm aware of who do such things
[18:42:17] <louiz’> what client are you using?
[18:42:29] <misha> Link Mauve: imagine that man from my roster start typing - I *want* to see it
[18:42:34] <misha> louiz’: tkabber
[18:42:55] <louiz’> Your client should NOT display these information coming from mucs if you're not interested.
[18:42:57] <misha> Link Mauve: so I get notification in status bar, because i want to see them from anywhere
[18:43:03] <louiz’> The problem is from your client, IMO.
[18:43:38] <Link Mauve> I think that too.
[18:44:04] <misha> louiz’: it's complicated. majority of clients don't send typing notifications to rooms, so there are only 2 of them
[18:44:09] <louiz’> The problem is that you receive "notifications" about me typing in this muc, even if you're not looking at this muc?
[18:44:15] <misha> yes
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[18:44:28] <misha> because those notification were invented for private
[18:44:30] <louiz’> Ok. Then your client should not do that...
[18:44:41] <louiz’> No. Read the XEP, they can also be used in MUCs.
[18:45:24] <louiz’> # This protocol SHOULD NOT be used with message types other than "chat" or "groupchat".
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[18:45:26] <misha> well, but majority of the clients don't do that, i suspect it's some kind of netiquete
[18:46:24] <louiz’> No. If gajim doesn't do that, for example, that's because Gajim's author (asterix) didn't know these chatstates could be used in groupchats.
[18:46:28] <louiz’> http://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0085.html#bizrules-groupchat
[18:46:35] <misha> so i think it's good to go with a majority, rather than add options for everly client
[18:46:47] <misha> i got the xep
[18:47:14] <louiz’> I find this features useful, and it's standard, so I don't see why I shouldn't use it :/
[18:48:57] <louiz’> Seriously, if your client makes too much "noise" when you get these notifications, that's your client's problem...
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[18:50:10] <louiz’> If I don't want my client to do annoying "beeps" when I receive a message, then I configure my client to be silent...
[18:50:48] <misha> louiz’: the main problem is that there are only two clients among dozens who do that noise
[18:51:04] <misha> does my client send you notification about me typing?
[18:51:16] <louiz’> No
[18:51:25] <louiz’> Do you know any other client doing "noise" when it receives a chatstate from a muc?
[18:51:29] <misha> you would see those notification only if most of people use your client. does it the case?
[18:51:32] <louiz’> Gajim, for example, just ignores them.
[18:52:05] <louiz’> misha, no. But I wish clients will start to send chatstates in MUCs too. I even intend to write a patch for gajim, to do this.
[18:52:21] <misha> what noise do Gajim? i've chated with people who use it - no problem
[18:53:04] <louiz’> No, it does no noise, even when poezio sends a chatstate in a MUC. So there's no problem with gajim. But there's a problem with tkabber.
[18:54:00] <louiz’> If it's maintained, I suggest you do them a bug report saying that you have annoying notifications coming from MUCs when someone sends a chatstate in there.
[18:55:25] <misha> well, it was just an opinion. if standard allow it - i will patch tkabber to ignore your notifications. but I honestly see that standard is wrong about chat notification in muc's.
[18:56:03] <louiz’> I don't see why. I find it interesting to know if someone is writing something, even in a MUC.
[18:56:18] <misha> because you don't see that i'm typing
[18:56:27] <misha> because you won't see if kev would type
[18:56:32] <misha> no one send those notifications
[18:56:40] <louiz’> Because these clients are missing the feature
[18:56:44] <louiz’> Empathy does
[18:57:22] <louiz’> Gajim will eventually, one day, do it too. (maybe)
[18:57:24] <misha> and tkabber *honestly* assume that those notification is useful only in private. louiz’, if for such long time only two clients implemented it - does this feature really useful?
[18:58:05] <louiz’> Then tkabber assumes something that is wrong
[18:58:22] <misha> louiz’: it was working for 10 years fine..
[18:58:26] <louiz’> These notifications are useful only if you're actively watching the MUC, not if you're talking to someone else
[18:59:18] <misha> but *roster* of *private* chat notification is useful even if you're in another room or don't pay attention to roster
[18:59:40] <MattJ> Sure, so tkabber should display them then
[18:59:48] <MattJ> and ignore them in rooms
[18:59:50] <louiz’> it does
[19:00:19] <MattJ> e.g. my client (Gajim) notifies me when someone sends me a message direct or as a PM
[19:00:24] <louiz’> but doesn't ignore them in rooms
[19:00:36] <MattJ> it doesn't do anything when someone sends a message in a room, it just quietly changes the tab colour
[19:00:40] <MattJ> Same principle
[19:00:42] <misha> *message* or *type notification*?
[19:00:43] <louiz’> exactly
[19:00:48] <MattJ> misha, message
[19:00:53] <MattJ> I'm saying it's exactly the same
[19:00:59] <misha> MattJ: then you're missing the point
[19:01:03] <MattJ> No I'm not at all
[19:01:15] <MattJ> You're probably missing mine
[19:01:32] <MattJ> You're complaining about typing notifications in MUCs being "noisy" in your client
[19:01:50] <MattJ> I would also complain if that were the case in my client
[19:01:55] <misha> well, guys, no offense. If standard says it can be used - then everything is fine. I will patch tkabber. But i really feel that it's wrong.
[19:02:11] <louiz’> Yes, that is wrong, from tkabber ;)
[19:02:17] <misha> i mean standard is wrong.
[19:02:22] <louiz’> Nope
[19:02:24] <MattJ> You mean this shouldn't be allowed at all?
[19:02:27] <MattJ> ever?
[19:02:29] <misha> in muc - yes
[19:02:37] <MattJ> What harm does it cause?
[19:02:38] <louiz’> But why?
[19:02:40] <misha> only in private, direct conversations
[19:02:55] <MattJ> Some people like it, I don't see a good reason to not let them have it
[19:03:07] <MattJ> There's no technical problem to allowing it
[19:03:16] <MattJ> It's just a client UI issue
[19:03:25] <misha> louiz’: 1) no one use it 2) if you're in active room you would be tired of watching those notifies, if you follow one person for example
[19:03:25] <MattJ> and 95% of clients are quite fine with it
[19:03:29] <MattJ> Just tkabber has an issue
[19:03:36] <MattJ> So XMPP should revolve around tkabber? :)
[19:04:12] <louiz’> misha, empathy and poezio use it. That's not Noone
[19:04:29] <MattJ> Until Gajim implements it, or maybe Swift, then Psi probably would
[19:04:36] <louiz’> misha, No, i'm not tired of these notifcations because they are "discrete" in my client.
[19:04:37] <MattJ> So it's a silly argument
[19:04:43] <MattJ> "You shouldn't do it because nobody else does"
[19:04:45] <louiz’> they don't pop-up or sound loud
[19:10:05] <misha> i've already told you - if it's in standard - the behavior is accepted
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[19:10:40] <misha> but i have strong opinion against it (standard clause), because it just overcomplicates it all (as usual :\)
[19:11:27] <MattJ> If IRC had supported typing notifications, we wouldn't be having this argument now :)
[19:12:43] <misha> irc was invented in times when people wasn't thinking about such 'beautiful features', they were solving problems in communication.
[19:12:57] <MattJ> Indeed
[19:13:15] <MattJ> It's the 21st century now :)
[19:14:34] <misha> yes, Jingle is comming
[19:14:51] <MattJ> Jingle is here, at least for me
[19:15:06] <MattJ> and the Empathy, Pidgin, and Psi users (and others)
[19:15:47] <misha> but skype/msn still beats xmpp in count of users - why?
[19:16:13] <MattJ> Money
[19:16:45] <MattJ> The Skype and MSN users don't care what protocol they're using
[19:17:07] <MattJ> and if the same amount of money spent on Skype and MSN marketing was spent marketing an XMPP solution, XMPP would be used instead
[19:17:09] <MattJ> Simple as that
[19:17:22] <misha> doubt it.. first of all they have standard clients, which *just* works, second of all people already there - and this is value of IM - why do I need protocol which my friends don't use
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[19:17:51] <misha> how to push people from skype/msn to xmpp?
[19:17:52] <MattJ> Jabber/XMPP pre-dates Skype
[19:17:57] <MattJ> by years
[19:18:14] <misha> yeah, but skype was first (in my memory) solution which *just* work
[19:18:27] <MattJ> For voice/video, that's correct
[19:19:01] <MattJ> But my point is, the issue of why XMPP is less widely used is not a technical issue that can be solved by the protocol folks
[19:19:13] <misha> users don't care about protocol, right. they just want it to *work*. and when xmpp spec's so broad and there are so many clients - it's very hard to keep them in compliance with the standard ;\
[19:19:51] <MattJ> There's a relatively small set of specs that XMPP clients can be reasonably expected to implement to compete with Skype/MSN
[19:19:56] <MattJ> Anything else is a bonus :)
[19:20:14] <misha> MattJ: I think it can be solved by developers, which could do just what skype did - client which *just* work. Send files through NAT, chat, *Easy* video/voice
[19:20:24] <misha> and it should be eye-candy of course :)
[19:20:36] <MattJ> Says you using tkabber? :P
[19:20:42] <misha> haha
[19:20:45] <misha> yea :)
[19:21:32] <MattJ> I'll be happy to see Swift gain Jingle support
[19:22:12] <misha> so i think it's just about broadness of choise and huge amount of *options* which xmpp support. i remember folks were trying to do grid compution over xmpp
[19:22:29] <misha> when you try to be *everything* you would lose your main purpose - i think like this :\
[19:23:18] <Link Mauve> misha, what is the problem to do grid computing over XMPP? Does it affect any other client?
[19:23:23] <MattJ> Some people are focused on IM, some people are focused on other stuff
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[19:23:30] <misha> MattJ: yeah, it would be cool, swift is really nice, but I hope it would support themes, default one just too MacOS'ish..
[19:23:52] <MattJ> If XMPP wasn't applicable for grid computing, I don't think the grid computing people would be helping us with the IM stuff
[19:24:10] <misha> Link Mauve: first of all it just won't work, second of all no one who do serious business would count on it
[19:24:39] <Link Mauve> There are a lot of useless projects, but it doesn’t affect other in any way.
[19:24:50] <darkrain> [citation needed]
[19:24:53] <MattJ> Heh
[19:25:19] <misha> the problem that xmpp support such projects :\ would anyone do grid computing over irc?
[19:25:21] <Link Mauve> If someone wants to spend time in something that pleases him, but no other people, I don’t see any objection.
[19:25:27] <misha> i mean it has base for it
[19:25:51] <darkrain> Actually, I think a lot of people do "grid computing" over IRC
[19:26:01] <misha> how that?
[19:26:07] <Link Mauve> Of course, XMPP is “only” a protocol to route small XML documents.
[19:26:17] <darkrain> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Botnet
[19:26:23] <misha> hah
[19:26:30] <MattJ> darkrain++
[19:26:35] <misha> good point
[19:26:44] <Link Mauve> So everything that can be done by exchanging small XML documents is possible over XMPP.
[19:26:58] <misha> Link Mauve: such posiblity is a defect in my opinion
[19:27:13] <Link Mauve> misha, why?
[19:27:42] <misha> because you don't want tool that do *everything*, but do it worse than other, special-purposed tools
[19:28:05] <Link Mauve> I have written an XMPP client that doesn’t do messages.
[19:28:23] <Link Mauve> I think it can be called special-purpose tool. :)
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[19:29:33] <misha> well, such talk is rather philosophical, the protocol is here, it's in active development, it's free and i hope eventually it will beat aim and skype
[19:29:41] <MattJ> I guess that's why TCP failed as a protocol
[19:29:48] <MattJ> It allows you to do too much over it
[19:29:57] <misha> why do TCP failed?
[19:30:04] <MattJ> </sarcasm>
[19:30:17] <misha> MattJ: TCP isn't tool for *everything*
[19:30:24] <misha> try to do VoIP over tcp
[19:30:25] <MattJ> Neither is XMPP
[19:30:40] <MattJ> and it doesn't claim to be
[19:30:48] <MattJ> It's just good for exchanging presence and messages
[19:31:06] <misha> MattJ: when i see such xep's as grid computing over xmpp - it looks to me that people see in xmpp a panacea for everything
[19:31:09] <MattJ> What those messages contain - it doesn't restrict
[19:31:45] <MattJ> The same way I feel when I see people boasting "realtime APIs" that use HTTP polling
[19:31:57] <misha> hehe
[19:32:52] <misha> btw, what do you prefer - irc chat room style with @/+ or xmpp style - with roles\affiliations?
[19:34:35] <Link Mauve> misha, you can represent XMPP rôles/affiliations with @ and + in your client, if you want.
[19:34:56] <Link Mauve> I think weechat-xmpp and irssi-xmpp are doing that, but I never used them.
[19:35:08] <misha> i was talking about concept
[19:36:17] <misha> irc style is simple - admin/voice/noone. xmpp style is complicated (comapared to irc) you can be an owner, but participant (iirc)
[19:37:09] <Link Mauve> Personally, there are a lot of stuff I dislike in the MUC XEP, but I never studied the IRC protocol so I can’t compare.
[19:44:13] <louiz’> IIRC, the "operator/participant/admin/voice" etc isn't defined in the IRC RFC...
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[19:45:48] <misha> louiz’: it is http://www.irchelp.org/irchelp/rfc/chapter1.html#c1_3_1
[19:47:20] <louiz’> ok
[19:47:35] <misha> and there are no admin/participant, they kept it very simple - op/voice/noone
[19:48:58] <MattJ> The MUC privilege system was purportedly designed the way it was to avoid some of the problems in IRC
[19:49:10] <MattJ> Which problems, I'm not sure - I think it's overly complicated
[19:49:52] <louiz’> I think too.
[19:50:17] <louiz’> the participant/visitor distinction is not even clear enough
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[20:04:38] <misha> louiz’: which clients do send notify to rooms - poezio and second was?
[20:06:31] <MattJ> Empathy/Telepathy
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[20:46:51] <misha2> okay, tkabber is notw properly prepared to face poezio and *pathy clients in MUCs :)
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