Logs for jdev

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[01:03:30] <psa> time for dinner, ttyl :)
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[04:49:38] <Coyo> so anyway, i wonder if there's a good introduction to how xmpp works internally? just glossing over the basics? i know that xmpp is based on xml, i know that it's a purely client-server protocol, and that federation is intentionally simple, to keep the servers intentionally simple. i now know that xmpp chatrooms "multi-user conferences" are now connected by way of your local server, and that i already knew that interserver traffic uses a different port from client-server traffic. i know that xmpp messages are composed of "stanzas" and that each stanza is discrete. i know that there are scalability problems with presence, or, at least, there USED to be. dont know if there still are. i know that xmpp has evolved rapidly this last decade, and that it's come a long, long way.
[04:50:50] <Coyo> other than that, i dont know much about xmpp. i'm going to go look for an xmpp tutorial.
[04:57:08] <Coyo> reading http://xmpp.org/rfcs/rfc3920.html#intro
[05:03:00] <MattJ> 3920 is old, 6920 was published earlier this year: http://xmpp.org/rfcs/rfc6120.html
[05:03:06] <MattJ> *6120
[05:12:24] <Coyo> thanks :D
[05:12:47] <MattJ> No problem :)
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[05:44:30] <Coyo> http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-wing-avt-tcrtp-00
[05:44:34] <Coyo> this is interesting.
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[06:26:15] <Tama> hey all :3
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[07:22:35] <Tama> hello alex.
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[08:13:35] <Alex> hi Tama
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[20:58:04] <Tama> so, how is everyone?
[21:01:46] <psa> great!
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[21:15:30] <Tama> psa: that's awesome!
[21:15:49] <psa> :)
[21:16:17] <Zash> Ok, now that I've got some food
[21:16:32] <Tama> psa: so i was thinking about it, and maybe the compression and muxing of rtp packets would incur more cost than it's worth. it might be fine to just send multiple duplicate packets over the same line, because it's cheaper and easier.
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[21:18:29] <Tama> it may be faster just to send duplicate packets, than to encrypt, mux, compress, and multicast rtp traffic.
[21:19:35] <Tama> because then the relay nodes would have to actually read the packet headers to see what multicast context to send to, you'd have the overhead of a special protocol to spread awareness of the multicast context, etc.
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[21:21:16] <Tama> and then you'd have to write an rfc for muxing the control information with the already muxed datagrams of control and multiple media channels. yeah, probably overkill.
[21:21:34] <psa> Tama = Coyo?
[21:21:38] <Tama> yes.
[21:21:43] <psa> heh ok
[21:21:54] <Tama> what do you think, psa?
[21:22:20] <psa> I think it depends on how many recipients there are
[21:22:40] <psa> and what kind of device you have
[21:22:46] <Tama> well, if you multicast over relay nodes that support it, it would scale well to over hundreds of peers.
[21:23:08] <psa> but for smaller conferences, I think it makes sense to send multiple duplicate packets
[21:23:16] <psa> however, I'm far from an expert on such things
[21:23:17] <Tama> /me nods.
[21:23:38] <Tama> well, you're the closest i have. you are, after all, the xmpp rep from cisco.
[21:24:02] <psa> I am not the XMPP rep from Cisco
[21:24:08] <psa> there is no such thing
[21:24:42] <psa> it's true that I work for Cisco, but I could get fired tomorrow :)
[21:26:01] <Tama> :(
[21:27:11] <Tama> well, i did some reading and you and the other standards board members. and you all seem to represent various companies involved with telephony and collaboration
[21:27:20] <Tama> so i guess i misled myself.
[21:27:56] <psa> no!
[21:28:02] <psa> we do NOT represent companies
[21:28:07] <Tama> okay.
[21:28:13] <psa> we participate as individuals
[21:28:22] <Tama> i'm not saying you do. i'm saying i got confused.
[21:28:35] <psa> some people contribute to various open source projects, commercial products, etc.
[21:28:55] <psa> but we don't have corporate memberships, corporate representatives, etc.
[21:28:59] <Tama> /me nods.
[21:29:13] <psa> the XSF is not an industry consortium
[21:29:24] <psa> this is not the W3C or ITU or someplace like that
[21:29:30] <Tama> hehe.
[21:29:39] <psa> (although, in fairness, the W3C is working to become more open)
[21:29:59] <Tama> i didnt realize the w3c was an industry consortium.
[21:30:02] <psa> it is
[21:30:28] <psa> if you want to contribute, you need to work for some big company that pays lots of money to participate (or be accepted as an invited expert)
[21:30:59] <Tama> oh. well that is unfortunate.
[21:31:11] <Zash> /me likes the IETF and XSF way more.
[21:31:15] <psa> :)
[21:31:19] <psa> yep
[21:31:32] <Tama> ietf sounds more interesting.
[21:31:41] <Tama> the xsf, too.
[21:32:03] <psa> the XSF has individual members (not corporate members), but they don't particularly do anything :) ... all the work happens on open discussion lists, chatrooms, etc.
[21:32:17] <Tama> they just rubberstamp it?
[21:32:30] <psa> it = ?
[21:32:46] <Tama> the consensus reached here in the open?
[21:32:58] <psa> we have individual members to provide a corporate structure to our non-profit organization, elect the Board and Council, etc.
[21:33:00] <Zash> if 'it' = xeps, then by proxy (the council) yes
[21:33:03] <Tama> /me offers zash a cookie
[21:33:41] <Zash> yay cookie!
[21:33:50] <Tama> zash: that's what i meant. the xeps and such.
[21:34:25] <Zash> Tama: members elect council. council votes on xeps.
[21:34:31] <Tama> oh, while i have you two here, i'm trying to find a philosophy and ethics page, so i can get a feel for the xmpp approach to problems, so i can think more xmpp-like.
[21:34:39] <Zash> duno what exactly the board does, probably board stuff
[21:35:14] <Tama> board stuff XD
[21:35:21] <Tama> /me is now reading: http://xmpp.org/about-xmpp/history/
[21:35:56] <Kev> The book.
[21:36:16] <Zash> Which one?
[21:36:28] <Kev> The XMPP one!
[21:36:30] <Kev> http://shop.oreilly.com/product/9780596521271.do
[21:37:20] <Zash> /me feels a loss of context
[21:37:24] <psa> Zash: the board does things like decide how to spend money, organize the XMPP Summit, etc.
[21:37:24] <Zash> oh
[21:37:35] <Zash> Tama: Did you see http://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0134.html
[21:40:19] <Tama> have no seen that yet. thank you, zash
[21:41:24] <Zash> psa: sure sounds like board things ;)
[21:41:32] <psa> Zash: exactly!
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[21:47:35] <Tama> that book. do want.
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[22:08:56] <Coyo> so yeah. i'm really excited. the concept of using xmpp to bootstrap a p2p network just sounds so COOL
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[22:33:52] <Coyo> why cant i speak?
[22:33:56] <Coyo> oh, there it goes.
[22:34:04] <Zash> .
[22:34:08] <louiz’> .
[22:34:31] <Coyo> ?
[22:34:49] <louiz’> yeah
[22:34:54] <Zash> Common way to see if messages get through.
[22:35:03] <Coyo> zash, how have you been doing?
[22:36:15] <Zash> not bad, could be worse. could be better too, but that'd probably be worse at the same time
[22:36:34] <Zash> I'm not complaining about it :)
[22:36:56] <Coyo> hehe. i've been dealing with interpersonal issues, so i've been kindof worn down. but i'm existing. i'm excited about the whole jingle p2p thing.
[22:38:36] <Zash> :)
[22:54:43] <Coyo> :3
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[22:57:47] <Coyo> zash: psa was talking about how whether muxing, compressing, and multicasting would be worth the effort depends on the scale. imagine, for a moment, that you had 9001 friends subscribed to your presence. that you presence was extended to provide facebook-like status and activity updates. imagine 9001 packets being sent out everytime you did anything. imagine the strain on the servers. now imagine it being negotiated with jingle beforehand, and handled with out-of-band smart multicast using udp. basically, an always-on "call" only it's for activity streams or whatever.
[22:57:54] <Coyo> what do you think about that, zash?
[22:58:23] <Zash> Only psa himself can have that many contacts!
[22:58:44] <Coyo> nonsense, i have over 300 on skype, and i clean out my contact list regularly.
[22:58:50] <Coyo> i have more on xmpp.
[22:59:20] <Coyo> and even more on facebook. i am pushing my 500-contact limit on facebook regularly.
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[22:59:44] <Coyo> /me is kindof a popular guy..
[22:59:59] <Zash> but
[23:00:15] <Zash> not everyone is online
[23:00:17] <Zash> all the time
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[23:00:21] <Coyo> this is true.
[23:00:27] <Coyo> but doesnt that make it even worse?
[23:00:41] <Coyo> because then you have to push through the backlog of status updates and activities
[23:00:46] <Zash> and stuff that uses PEP only pushes to people who want that data
[23:02:04] <Coyo> i need to reread pep. but the idea is that activity messages, status updates and the like, should be reliable, meaning, they should eventually go through, IF you are subscribed to a person's presence stream.
[23:04:56] <psa> Coyo: oh, I thought you were talking about multiplexing media streams, not something simple like presence
[23:05:12] <Coyo> psa: i was talking about both.
[23:05:25] <psa> granted, presence can create a lot of traffic, but very very people have that many contacts in their roster
[23:05:32] <psa> I have only ~2600
[23:05:39] <Coyo> muxing media streams is important, too, in my humble opinion.
[23:05:45] <psa> and, as Zash says, most of them are not online at any one time
[23:05:51] <Coyo> psa: add me, i am coyotama@parlementum.net
[23:06:01] <Coyo> /me grins.
[23:06:13] <psa> Coyo: I'm not connected to my primary account at the moment
[23:06:19] <Coyo> okay.
[23:06:27] <Coyo> :>
[23:06:44] <Coyo> so yeah. pep looks interesting. reading now.
[23:06:46] <psa> now, there are systems like Twitter where some people have hundreds of thousands of followers
[23:06:58] <Coyo> exactly how they deal with hundreds of thousands of subscribers.
[23:07:07] <psa> in that case, something like pubsub fanout would be beneficial, probably
[23:07:23] <psa> but then again, they don't use XMPP
[23:07:35] <psa> and have built all sorts of proprietary mechanisms to make it all work
[23:07:55] <Coyo> we can do it. we just need to find a way.
[23:08:25] <psa> Coyo: maybe write that first Ruby app of yours first, eh?
[23:08:31] <Coyo> microblogging has become an important part of culture. we cannot allow something that important rest in the paws of something like twitter. or facebook, for that matter.
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[23:08:50] <Coyo> i'm actually thinking python. it depends on what xmpp libraries are available.
[23:09:04] <Coyo> oh, btw. psa: i asked my dad to get your book for christmas.
[23:09:10] <Coyo> so i'm getting that book.
[23:09:17] <psa> Coyo: http://identi.ca/ is a federated microblogging system, we talk with those folks regularly
[23:09:25] <Coyo> identi.ca is awesome.
[23:09:27] <psa> Coyo: see also http://buddycloud.com
[23:09:37] <Coyo> i have not yet used buddycloud.
[23:10:05] <psa> we might hold a joint session with some of the federated social web guys in early February
[23:11:28] <Coyo> that would be awesome to witness.
[23:12:09] <psa> maybe :)
[23:15:06] <psa> ok, I'm going to head home early here so I'm awake for my evening work session :)
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[23:15:44] <Zash> /me wants xmpp for s2s between statusnet instances (the software running identica)
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[23:15:54] <Coyo> :D
[23:15:55] <psa> Zash: yeah
[23:15:59] <Coyo> that would be cool :o
[23:20:42] <psa> ttfn
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[23:22:06] <Coyo> o/
[23:22:12] <Coyo> https://buddycloud.org/wiki/XMPP_XEP#Abstract:_Channels_for_Social_Networking
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[23:51:44] <Coyo> /me yawns and stretches
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[00:05:16] <Tama> o.o
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[00:05:44] <Tama> there we go.
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