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[06:31:33] <PaulFertser> Hi there.
[06:32:03] <PaulFertser> What's happening with the server? I was disconnected twice in 10 minutes :(
[06:35:10] <mebs> I was not disconnected, but jabber.org<->gmail does not seem to work
[06:37:39] <PaulFertser> Sigh :(
[06:38:23] <PaulFertser> Probably that stupid icq is more stable in the long run, even considering they change protocol every now and then thus making sane clients unusable... how come...
[06:42:19] <PaulFertser> I know the difference between a protocol and a server and i understand that i can choose a more stable server etc etc. But which server can be considered to be as stable (now and in the future) as fucking aol's service?
[06:44:07] <PaulFertser> It's a strange sick situation where we have some stupid and inflexible services from the "evil forces" but they used to work ~stable and chances are they will stay that way for 10 year more.
[06:45:12] <PaulFertser> And we have a nice shiny sane interoperable etc etc protocol but no way to get the same level of stability.
[06:45:23] <PaulFertser> Please, folks, prove me wrong, pretty please!
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[06:54:29] <mebs> maybe for debug: it is a bit strange situation now. I do not see my gmail contacts online, but gmail contacts see me online and when I change status to away, they see the status change in ~3 seconds
[06:55:26] <mebs> no messages from gmail come to me however
[06:56:30] <mebs> and it is about the same lag when I write to this room. the message appears after about 3 seconds
[07:00:24] <ThurahT> testing lag
[07:00:33] <ThurahT> woa.. 16 seconds.
[07:01:04] <ThurahT> only the first though.. my woa there was faster.
[07:01:19] <ThurahT> yea. 3 seconds for me too.
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[07:51:04] <PaulFertser> Another disconnect :/
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[09:18:41] <Aviator> ThurahT: hmm, Google has been maintaining a bad compatibility with jabber
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[09:21:30] <truman45883> test
[09:23:08] <truman45883> So I am not the only one with connection issues?
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[11:04:08] <musicman> can anyone explain how to open your own groupchat, please?
[11:05:00] <Link Mauve> Join it, then you’ll be asked configure it.
[11:05:55] <musicman> tried, it just said not available
[11:07:34] <musicman> seems 3rd try is a charm. thank you.
[11:07:44] <Link Mauve> Oh. ^^
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[12:58:45] <mohamad9804> Gg
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[13:25:57] <gresco> hi
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[15:06:09] <musicman> Hello. I am new to Jabber/XMPP and I am looking for the best Jabber/XMPP Client. I am currently testing eM Client which seems good enough EXCEPT it doesn't seem to support groupchat. Am I missing something? What is considered to be the BEST Client?
[15:07:04] <Kev> musicman: 'best' is highly subjective, there is no clearly best client in the abstract.
[15:07:26] <musicman> fair enough, reliable, ease of use?
[15:08:04] <Kev> I work on the http://swift.im client these days, which aims for reliability and ease of use (but not necessarily having the most features).
[15:08:16] <louiz’> with a gui? In console? For power users? For lambda users?
[15:08:51] <musicman> with a gui and beginner/medium user
[15:08:56] <Kev> Both Psi and Gajim are more featureful, at the cost of being slightly less intuitive.
[15:09:08] <louiz’> For user who wants lots of features, in a GUI but that requires a little bit of knowledge, I recommend Gajim
[15:09:41] <louiz’> Pidgin may be a little more user friendly, but with a little less features
[15:09:49] <musicman> Ty. Pandion and Jabbear look interesting, but the stability of both looks questionable
[15:10:30] <louiz’> I think gajim is worth the try
[15:10:52] <louiz’> And it’s OK for at least medium users
[15:12:26] <musicman> Gajim. Ok, ty. One thing though, I personally like the concept of integrated email and im client, do you know anything about spicebird. as I said eM Client is nice, but there appears to be no groupchat feature.
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[15:13:38] <louiz’> There’s Salut À Toi which has a plugin to manipulate (send and receive AFAIK) the emails directly in the IM client, but I think that’s pretty experimental. And I don’t know anything else
[15:14:44] <musicman> Ty again, louiz' and Kev
[15:15:43] <Kev> You're welcome.
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[16:12:01] <PaulFertser> Kev: hi there :) i had several disconnects in a row this morning (GMT+4), were there any server-related issues? BTW, what about ipv6 support?
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[16:45:51] <Kev> IPv6 support will come some day, when our hoster gets around to it.
[16:46:21] <Kev> As for some problem this morning, the server hasn't restarted, at least, but there may have been an issue with system load, let me check.
[16:47:22] <Kev> We've had a few periods of very high load today.
[16:47:55] <Kev> I wonder if we run backups multiple times a day; I know our backups generate a lot of CPU load for some reason, and run for hours.
[16:47:55] <PaulFertser> Kev: i'm afraid i can't provide with more debug info. But my mcabber (that is now lib loudmouth-based) said there's some error and reconnected).
[16:48:27] <Kev> Yes, if the load was high enough, it could cause timeouts with clienst.
[16:48:30] <Kev> *clients.
[16:48:37] <Kev> (and servers, for that matter)
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[16:48:55] <PaulFertser> 11-07 10:54 <== <mebs> maybe for debug: it is a bit strange situation now. I do not see my gmail contacts online, but gmail contacts see me online and when I change status to away, they see the status change in ~3 seconds 11-07 10:55 <== <mebs> no messages from gmail come to me however 11-07 10:56 <== <mebs> and it is about the same lag when I write to this room. the message appears after about 3 seconds 11-07 11:00 <== <ThurahT> testing lag 11-07 11:00 <== <ThurahT> woa.. 16 seconds. 11-07 11:01 <== <ThurahT> only the first though.. my woa there was faster. 11-07 11:01 <== <ThurahT> yea. 3 seconds for me too.
[16:49:03] <PaulFertser> Another data point.
[16:49:17] <PaulFertser> This insability level is "somewhat" discouraging...
[16:50:13] <PaulFertser> Kev: why can't you simply establish a HE tunnel if your hoster is such a <censored>?
[16:50:33] <Kev> Yes, I understand that. We added more stats graphing the other day, to see if there's anything obvious about the periods that suffer.
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[16:53:31] <PaulFertser> Kev: btw, are you basically the only one taking care of the jabber.org service? I bet aol has 5-10 "engineers" (of course, not nearly as talented as you, no kidding) and several servers to manage their icq and aim systems...
[16:54:02] <Kev> No, I'm not the only one, but I'm probably the person who does most with the XMPP service itself.
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[16:54:34] <Kev> On the server front, at least, we're looking at introducing clustering in the coming months.
[16:54:40] <PaulFertser> Kev: i hope you understood my question/remark, even though it's vaguely formulated.
[16:55:59] <Kev> Our problem at the moment is that we don't know what the problem is. We know that *something* happens to the machine, such that the load increases to the point that connections start to time out. We don't know if that's the machine, the backups, the traffic or even (heaven forbid) something about the software.
[16:56:26] <Kev> (Although the latter is somewhat unlikely - I'd expect it to die hard and restart itself rather than running slow in the abstract)
[16:57:09] <Kev> If you could give me a highlight at the next moment you notice a problem, I'll try and look at it then and see if catching it in the act helps at all.
[16:57:23] <PaulFertser> Kev: if that's not a _really_ short spike, ``watch -n 1 ps ax'' or something along the lines should have helped...
[16:59:30] <Kev> It depends what's happening.
[17:00:05] <Kev> I don't have a good handle on what the issue is, I'm just aware that it manifests itself as lag for xmpp:jabber.org users intermittently.
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[17:00:26] <PaulFertser> I can't give a highlight when the server is disconnecting me.
[17:00:44] <Kev> Heh. Yes, I can see the truth in this :)
[17:01:17] <PaulFertser> And of course you can run yourself a small python or whatever script that'll test server's responsiveness all the time and perform top/ps ax/magic sysrq actions accordingly.
[17:02:34] <Kev> Yes, this is true.
[17:03:04] <Kev> I'll mail myself a TODO (I'm out of the office (or, rather, *in* the office) at the moment, so don't have my usual setup).
[17:03:07] <PaulFertser> Kev: please do not get me wrong...
[17:04:43] <PaulFertser> I really appreciate you being here.
[17:04:58] <PaulFertser> But somehow it feels your company doesn't pay enough attention...
[17:05:35] <Kev> Well, Isode isn't responsible for the XMPP service at jabber.org, the jabber.org team are.
[17:05:47] <Kev> When I say 'we', I've been talking about the jabber.org team.
[17:06:24] <PaulFertser> Kev: but you seem to be the _only_ one active developer/admin from the jabber.org team. And you time seems to be limited enough by Isode...
[17:08:47] <PaulFertser> Running the largest XMPP server is a rather daunting task and it i think Isode should appreciate it and support you in this great effort (i.e. giving enough time for the service-related activities).
[17:09:11] <Kev> It's true that the main admins are all busy people, and I seem to have the most time/expertise available for this stuff (largely because Isode lets me spend work time on it), but it's unreasonable to suggest Isode's limiting the admin of the server in some way.
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[17:09:37] <Kev> I get to spend work time on the admin now I work for Isode, which is something I'd not been able to do with previous jobs.
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[17:11:02] <PaulFertser> Kev: well, that's just my impression. I believe you could have ironed out the bugs faster (given your level of experience) of not for the unrelated activities at Isode. That's the outsider's impression...
[17:12:02] <PaulFertser> Please do not get me wrong...
[17:12:08] <Kev> You mean if I spent 24/7 working on jabber.org? Yes, that's likely true, but the same is true of other admins, and I think it'd be equally unreasonable to blame Cisco (who employ Peter), or Matt (who employs himself) etc.
[17:13:47] <PaulFertser> Kev: you know as well as we all do how much Cisco cares about people in general and the free software movement in particular. If only Cisco (Linksys) _really_ cared, the world would be so much better, can't you imagine that?
[17:14:29] <Kev> Cisco pay Peter to work pretty much full time on open standards work, particularly around XMPP, so they're certainly doing good there.
[17:15:55] <PaulFertser> Cisco violated GPL and tried to blame "broadcom" for that despite being clearly guilty. Regardless of how practical it was for SFLC to enforce GPL in that case, it says a lot about the company.
[17:18:20] <PaulFertser> When i say to my friends that XMPP is better they sometimes say, meh, but ICQ works all the time while you're being offline every now and then. Of course it doesn't matter much for me, but that's quite some bad PR for the XMPP (sick reasoning, i know, but people tend to use such kind of reasoning) :/
[17:22:07] <PaulFertser> Also, btw, icq has an "allports" service running which helps in restricted corporate environments.
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[17:25:12] <PaulFertser> Kev: i do not blame you personally, i'm sure you're doing fine, doing as much as you can. But something feels wrong in this whole situation.
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[17:45:42] <Kev> Clearly that the service isn't giving the 100% availability we'd all like it to isn't "right", but I don't think anyone is being "wrong" in all this, everyone does what they can, donating time, donating hardware, donating hosting, whatever. There's lots of people doing what they can to provide what is ultimately a free service we're trying to run for the good of the people who want it.
[17:48:20] <PaulFertser> It's strange "the main" XMPP server can't get "enough" sponsorship :( I really hoped Isode was serious in their support meaning they'll provide you with everything you need to keep the service stable.
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[17:50:46] <a10505302@jabber.org/Meebo> hello?
[17:51:01] <Kev> Isode was never asked to run the service - we (jabber.org) asked for software and support for the software, both of which Isode have been giving (and the software seems to be running largely ok), never that that they should be running the server. *Although* despite this, Isode do give lots of support for this, like some of my time, and for that matter my boss was working on the stats graphing last week that we'll need to work out what's happening to the machine.
[17:51:38] <PaulFertser> Kev: sounds fair enough indeed.
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[18:00:51] <Kev> Right, off. Be back probably tomorrow. If you could work out what the time was (in GMT ideally) that stuff dropped for you earlier, I'll investigate.
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[20:21:30] <jackson14279> hi
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[22:33:52] <quincyadams11986> new to jabber server setup ... how do I setup jabber to allow any client to create their own account?
[22:34:48] <quincyadams11986> in other words how to make the "create this new account on server" check box work in Pidgin
[22:36:14] <quincyadams11986> i've been playing with ACL but thats not doin it for me
[22:37:20] <quincyadams11986> is this the right place to ask?
[22:39:00] <quincyadams11986> guess not...
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[22:43:19] <psa> oops
[22:43:24] <psa> too many tabs
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[23:50:26] <ThurahT> never understood these guys who hit n run support. back in the day you joined a channel waited for your turn and finally you got voiced and could ask you question. and when answered you got kicked out. These whiners all have voice and wont even wait 10 minutes.
[23:51:14] <ThurahT> *your question
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