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[09:49:25] <topriddy> gddd
[09:49:33] <topriddy> finally my messages go in.
[09:50:25] <topriddy> i want to ask please, how do i get the status of the current logged in user? I am using smack, and Presence#getStatus is always returning null.
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[15:20:09] <dwd> Anyone know if Pidgin uses PEP?
[15:23:14] <deryni> It does though without digging I can't tell you to what extent.
[15:23:23] <dwd> deryni, Ta.
[15:23:48] <dwd> deryni, Do you happen to know if it uses it by default at all?
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[15:25:07] <deryni> It should. Looks like we use it for avatar, nick, and tune. Though again, without digging I don't know more than which files grep tells me it shows up in. =)
[15:25:26] <dwd> deryni, Okay, that's great. I don't need specifics anyway. :-)
[15:26:28] <deryni> I've got a question for you actually, or possibly someone you work with, do you know if there's a spec/guideline/anything for how browsers (and other ssl clients) are supposed to handle being given the root CA in the server's cert chain?
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[15:27:37] <deryni> And relatedly, do you know why tls 1.2 says that the root ca MAY be omitted from the chain? As opposed to some other language that makes it sound less like including it is the default choice.
[15:32:30] <dwd> You need to have the root CA cert anyway in order to do anything useful with the rest of the chain.
[15:32:58] <dwd> ANd you know which it is because of the Issuer in the next one down.
[15:34:32] <deryni> The client needs it, yes. But the client can't trust it if the server sends it.
[15:34:58] <dwd> Yes, either way the client needs to have it already.
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[15:35:34] <deryni> Right. So I'm wondering why the spec reads like the server sending it is the default and that it MAY be omitted and whether there's any best practice on what to do when the server sends it anyway.
[15:35:40] <dwd> (Or, if you're really posh, you have an SCVP machine that provides you with the CA cert and a cross-certification to your internal, single CA)
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[15:36:40] <dwd> deryni, I think full chain used to be mandated - if you get it, and it differs from what you have, you fail the chain, of course - but you do end up with more information to give to the user.
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[15:42:15] <deryni> Handling up chain order by name is such a disaster.
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[15:45:45] <deryni> Thanks.
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[16:21:36] <dwd> deryni, Checked with our X.509 guy, and he said I'm right.
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[16:29:18] <deryni> Ok. Thanks.
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[16:51:12] <dwd> deryni, Can I trade you more questions? :-)
[16:51:35] <dwd> deryni, Now wondering what checks Pidgin does on certificates, and where it gets its trust anchors from.
[16:52:20] <deryni> Most distros should be building it with the system root store. We have a root store of our own that we use when not told to do that and on Windows.
[16:53:17] <deryni> I'm less qualified to comment on the cert check stuff as I don't really know that code at all, darkrain knows it better. Was there something specific you were interested in knowing?
[16:54:02] <dwd> Which SANs, really. And just out of curiosity. We happen to be doing some testing to replicate a customer bug, and the customer runs Pidgin.
[16:56:21] <deryni> I figured that last bit. That tends to be why you ask. =)
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[17:11:38] <deryni> Assuming I've read all this correctly (and haven't missed anything) it looks like we just punt to gnutls/NSS for that and call gnutls_x509_crt_check_hostname and CERT_VerifyCertName.
[17:14:16] <dwd> Thanks.
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[17:48:59] <louiz’> hum, with pubsub, if I use one client, handling this XEP correctly, to subscribe to a node from which I want to receive notifications. And I disconnect my client, how could I receive all the NEW items of that node at my next login?
[17:49:25] <louiz’> Because, if that’s a node with a LOT of items, I don’t want to retrieve ALL existing items at each connexion…
[17:50:07] <Kev> Yes, this is a shortcoming it would be good for someone to address with a XEP.
[17:55:51] <louiz’> http://doomsong.co.uk/extensions/render/message-archive-management.html buddycloud uses that
[17:56:19] <Kev> Yes.
[17:57:26] <Kev> Just needs Matt to propose it, get it accepted, and then someone to write a short XEP about how to use it in relation to pubsub nodes for your use case.
[17:57:45] <louiz’> right
[17:58:13] <louiz’> but where would the “archive” be? On my server or on the pubsub component?
[17:58:30] <Kev> On the pubsub component.
[18:02:50] <louiz’> so, in my use case, I would just subscribe, disconnect, connect with an other client that doesn’t support pubsub at all, so this one will ignore all the pubsub notifications. Then I connect back with the pubsub client, send an archive query “Dear pubsub.examble.com, send me all messages after $timestamp where to=$my_jid”, and I will get them everything I need? Am I right?
[18:03:14] <Kev> Something like that, yes.
[18:03:19] <louiz’> ok fine :)
[18:03:22] <Kev> Or 'since item id blah'.
[18:03:34] <louiz’> ah yeah, since item id blah is even better
[18:08:44] <louiz’> FYI, Link Mauve and I are wanting to do an XEP like “newsgroup or XMPP”, where you use pubsub to have something like NNTP, or a forum.
[18:09:02] <louiz’> newsgroup OVER XMPP (not “or”)
[18:09:35] <Zash> YES!
[18:12:50] <louiz’> :D
[18:12:50] <louiz’> that’s why I need a reliable way to get new-messages-while-I-wasn’t there without having to re-fetch everything
[18:16:36] <Zash> I've been tempted to build something like that for a while
[18:16:36] <Zash> .
[18:18:40] <Kev> Sure.
[18:18:40] <Kev> Shove a forum interface on it and it sounds good.
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[18:29:35] <louiz’> oh
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[18:30:04] <Zash> "Pong from jabber.org in 957.235 seconds"
[18:30:48] <louiz’> :(
[18:30:48] <louiz’> :D
[18:30:48] <louiz’> aha
[18:31:50] <louiz’> so, yeah, link mauve wants to do a web interface for it (like his blog-over-xmpp too), and I want to integrate it into poezio
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[18:34:42] <Kev> The reason I don't like forums is that they require silly interfaces.
[18:34:56] <Kev> If we could build some non-sucky interface because of pubsub, that'd be nice.
[18:35:49] <louiz’> yeah
[18:38:40] <Zash> Mailing lists!
[18:38:53] <louiz’> with archive retrieval!!!
[18:39:32] <louiz’> actually, there’s no way to say “I want all new items since item xxxx”, because what you actually want is ALL the notifications you missed, even the retract one, etc. So, I think the only sensible way to do that is to use the timestamp of the last notification you received, no?
[18:40:16] <Zash> I'll see your timestamp, and raise you clock skew
[18:41:09] <louiz’> :(
[18:42:01] <louiz’> so, that’s no reliable either, you say?
[18:42:19] <deryni> "since item xxxx" should be convertable to a timestamp on the server, no? Which means that it should be able to do notification of retractions after that time just fine, no?
[18:42:54] <Zash> Since item x wouldn't get borked by clock skew, no
[18:43:41] <louiz’> but how does the client define what is this item? If he received “new item B“ and then “item A has been removed”, what should it query?
[18:43:56] <deryni> Do retractions not have identifiers?
[18:44:00] <louiz’> nope
[18:44:02] <louiz’> I checked
[18:44:04] <Zash> 198!
[18:44:07] <deryni> That's unfortunate.
[18:44:08] <Kev> louiz’: If it's told again that A has been removed, does this matter?
[18:44:10] <Zash> And never go offline!
[18:44:20] <louiz’> Kev, not really
[18:44:42] <deryni> 237? =)
[18:44:51] <louiz’> so you suggest to ask for the new messages since last published item?
[18:45:05] <Kev> What is important is that you know the current state. Receiving the odd duplicate removal doesn't (ISTM) cause a problem with this.
[18:45:25] <louiz’> indeed
[18:46:21] <louiz’> (also, ISTM=?)
[18:46:56] <deryni> I parsed that as 'it seems to me'.
[18:47:28] <Kev> Yes.
[18:47:42] <louiz’> ok.
[18:48:22] <louiz’> so we need to include that into MAM, or write a special thing for pubsub item retrieval.
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[18:48:51] <Kev> The problem is that keeping around removals to replay is a bit icky.
[18:49:02] <Kev> Maybe it can't be avoided.
[18:49:49] <louiz’> well, removal is just a <message/> stanza like any other, so that doesn’t seem icky to me
[18:50:29] <deryni> This really sounds like 237-for-pubsub to me.
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[18:50:40] <louiz’> yes
[18:50:51] <Zash> Stick notifications into offline storage?
[18:50:51] <Kev> Well, no, kinda.
[18:51:19] <Kev> The thing about 237 is that you can always just revert back to sending the whole roster - which is what people do when there are removals, I believe, so you don't need to log tombstones for them.
[18:51:27] <Zash> Does the client need the complete state?
[18:51:31] <louiz’> Zash, but what if I connect with a client not supporting pubsub, and then I go back online with my pubsub-aware client, I won’t get them again
[18:51:43] <Kev> That's harder to do with pubsub unless it's going to be acceptable to send an entire node.
[18:52:07] <deryni> True. 237 is easier because you can always fall back.
[18:52:22] <Zash> louiz’: Archiving
[18:52:51] <deryni> I haven't read it in a while but I didn't know that sop for deletions was to go back to the beginning.
[18:53:57] <louiz’> Zash, yeah, archiving is what we are talking about, actually, no? :p
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[20:18:18] <louiz’> where are the files and the documentation to write an XEP, with the correct format?
[20:18:36] <louiz’> (writing the XML, and getting an html file from it, etc)
[20:19:24] <Kev> http://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0143.html
[20:19:33] <louiz’> thanks!
[20:32:44] <louiz’> You get extra credit with the XMPP Extensions Editor if you follow Jabber tradition by using characters and situations from the plays of Shakespeare: :D
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