Logs for jdev
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[09:26:17] * toto in now known as louiz’.
[09:26:31] <louiz’> About the conversation on resource identifiers (on ietf ML)
[09:26:59] * Alex joined the chat.
[09:27:33] <louiz’> I'm not familiar with how iq are handled by the server. But if my client sents an iq to a full JID, it will be sent to that
client, by its server, no matter if I'm in its roster?
[09:28:49] <Alex> louiz’: when a contact is not in yor roster yo don't getthe contacts presence, which means you don't have the resources
[09:29:03] <Alex> so you can only send iqs to contacts where you have the resource
[09:29:48] <Alex> of course when clients are using unsecure resources then you can guess them, but this is anothr problem
[09:30:19] <louiz’> but in fact, I'm talking about the case where you GUESS that resource
[09:31:23] <Alex> I assume that most servers will route them in the default settings
[09:31:30] <louiz’> ok
[09:32:44] <louiz’> So, random resource should be used. But it's confusing for the users. For example if my client displays the two resources
of my contact, I want to send him a message to the one at his home, not his office. With random resources I cannot chose the
correct one, can I?
[09:33:15] <Alex> you can disco clients to get more info and the type
[09:33:45] <Alex> You should not use the resource for Home, Work, Mobile .......
[09:33:59] <louiz’> yeah, but that's currently how they are used :p
[09:34:00] <Alex> when you do then append a random string at the end
[09:34:23] <louiz’> So we need to find a replacement for this feature…
[09:34:26] <Alex> eg. this is what google does, they always append a unique string to your given resource
[09:34:45] <louiz’> that's nice, yes
[09:34:50] <Alex> louiz’: there is, disco, we have to get clients to implement it, and users to understand it
[09:34:59] <Florob> How would a disco:info reply get you that info though? If anything I'd suspect that data to be in user geolocation
[09:35:59] <Alex> Florob:
<iq from='romeo@montague.lit/orchard'
id='disco1'
to='juliet@capulet.lit/chamber'
type='result'>
<query xmlns='http://jabber.org/protocol/disco#info'
node='http://code.google.com/p/exodus#QgayPKawpkPSDYmwT/WM94uAlu0='>
<identity category='client' name='Exodus 0.9.1' type='pc'/>
<feature var='http://jabber.org/protocol/caps'/>
<feature var='http://jabber.org/protocol/disco#info'/>
<feature var='http://jabber.org/protocol/disco#items'/>
<feature var='http://jabber.org/protocol/muc'/>
</query>
</iq>
[09:36:26] <louiz’> what if you're using the same client on both resources?
[09:36:52] <Alex> or here, with xdata form:
<iq from='benvolio@capulet.lit/230193'>
id='disco1'
to='juliet@capulet.lit/chamber'
type='result'>
<query xmlns='http://jabber.org/protocol/disco#info'
node='http://psi-im.org#q07IKJEyjvHSyhy//CH0CxmKi8w='>
<identity xml:lang='en' category='client' name='Psi 0.11' type='pc'/>
<identity xml:lang='el' category='client' name='Ψ 0.11' type='pc'/>
<feature var='http://jabber.org/protocol/caps'/>
<feature var='http://jabber.org/protocol/disco#info'/>
<feature var='http://jabber.org/protocol/disco#items'/>
<feature var='http://jabber.org/protocol/muc'/>
<x xmlns='jabber:x:data' type='result'>
<field var='FORM_TYPE' type='hidden'>
<value>urn:xmpp:dataforms:softwareinfo</value>
</field>
<field var='ip_version'>
<value>ipv4</value>
<value>ipv6</value>
</field>
<field var='os'>
<value>Mac</value>
</field>
<field var='os_version'>
<value>10.5.1</value>
</field>
<field var='software'>
<value>Psi</value>
</field>
<field var='software_version'>
<value>0.11</value>
</field>
</x>
</query>
</iq>
[09:36:58] <Alex> you can put there all info you need
[09:37:02] <Florob> Alex, yes... that's disco:info alright. But where is the part that tells me this is juliet's work client?
[09:37:34] <louiz’> 4. We have ways to discover the identity of particular resources, via things like the presence <status/> element, Entity Capabilities
(XEP-0115), Software Version (XEP-0092), Service Discovery (XEP-0030) potentially with extensions (XEP-0128), Geolocation
(XEP-0080), and so on. So power users do have the means to know that some other resource is in fact their desktop computer
at the office, even without semantically meaningful resource identifiers.
[09:37:36] <Alex> put it in the xdata orm
[09:38:34] <louiz’> Software Version wouldn't help, AFAIK, Entity Capabilities neither…
[09:39:06] <Florob> I maintain that goes into geolocation. At least within the currently defined XEPs
[09:39:21] <Florob> and I'm not sure I'd really want it in disco:info
[09:39:49] <louiz’> what if the user works in the same building than where he lives? :p
[09:40:14] <Florob> You can put human readable names
[09:40:36] <Florob> I don't expect anyone to choose work or home based on lat and lon ;)
[09:40:50] <louiz’> oh, ok. I'm not familiar with geoloc :p
[09:40:51] <Alex> no, but there is a human readable string
[09:41:25] <Alex> text
xs:string
A catch-all element that captures any other information about the location
Northwest corner of the lobby
[09:41:56] <Alex> put there my home castle, or my office
[09:42:23] <Alex> you can use it even without GPS data
[09:42:24] <louiz’> But, now I know about the "risk" of a common resource. I'll change it in my client to be, be default, server-generated, and
commented as "not recommended"
[09:42:39] <louiz’> by default*
[09:42:45] <Florob> However that brings us to one or two days ago. Clients are not really good at per resource PEP.
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[11:11:10] <Kev> A human-readable string in disco is interesting.
[11:11:30] <Kev> The problem being that caps then becomes much heavier.
[11:12:17] <Kev> Some string in a presence stanza that does what people currently try to use resources for may be something that's not a bad
idea, though (and I don't like poluting presence)
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[11:24:29] <Destructhor> Hello, I've got question about file transfer by socks proxy
[11:25:12] <Destructhor> The XEP-0065 says that DST.ADDR should be a hash of concatenated id and jids
[11:25:38] <Destructhor> Should it be utf-8? The xep doesn't say...
[11:26:11] <MattJ> What else would it be?
[11:26:56] <MattJ> Typically everything in XMPP is UTF-8, and you can't convert to non-unicode without potentially losing information
[11:29:14] <Destructhor> OK then, thanks
[11:29:20] <Zash> Let's have a gigantic EVERYTHING SHOULD BE UTF-8 IN XMPP in xmpp-core
[11:29:28] <Kev> Zash: There is.
[11:29:39] <Destructhor> Kev: Not big enough.
[11:29:40] <Zash> Kev: We need bigger, yes!
[11:30:32] <Guus> I suggest wrapping the statement with <blink>. Just for the hell of it.
[11:31:33] <Florob> oO
[11:31:59] <Zash> <font size=over9000><blink>UTF-8 OR GTFO</font>
[11:32:13] <Zash> damt, forgot mixed case
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[11:35:22] <Guus> and the closing blink tag.
[11:35:31] <Guus> no css..
[11:35:36] <Guus> /me ducks/runs
[11:36:00] <Zash> /me tries to throw a HTML parser at Guus, but it is too heavy
[11:36:57] <Guus> /me slaps Zash around a bit with a large, greasy frontenddevelopmentdepartment
[11:37:24] <Guus> or what was that mIRC quote? ;)
[11:37:34] <Zash> /me wraps Guus in mixed case MARQUEE tags
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[11:38:03] <mlundblad_laptop> <BLINK>
[11:38:05] <mlundblad_laptop> :)
[11:38:06] <Guus> ok, you win.
[11:38:14] <mlundblad_laptop> how about <CENTER>? :D
[11:38:27] <Zash> mlundblad_laptop: That's the best tag ever!
[11:38:33] <Kev> I'm not quite sure what 'helping' looks like, but I'm certain it's not this.
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[11:57:47] <Guus> who claimed we were helping?
[11:58:07] <Kev> No-one, luckily :)
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[16:16:16] <yagiza> Hello!
[16:17:13] <stpeter> hi yagiza
[16:17:57] <yagiza> Is there any way to publish a PEP item without automatic subscription?
[16:18:06] <yagiza> 'cause it seems Filtering Notification is optional.
[16:18:38] <stpeter> you mean that you want to publish a PEP item but not receive the item you've published?
[16:18:51] <yagiza> Yes
[16:19:09] <yagiza> Do not receive a notification message
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[16:19:45] <yagiza> You know, most of the servers running up today do not have filtering notification.
[16:20:19] <yagiza> So, publishing an avatar data on those servers generates a lot of spam.
[16:21:26] <stpeter> but you're spamming yourself :)
[16:23:28] <yagiza> Not only
[16:23:40] <yagiza> I'm spamming everyone!
[16:24:06] <stpeter> what do you propose as the solution?
[16:24:17] * yagiza left the chat.
[16:24:19] <stpeter> it seems that the problem is that you're using a buggy server
[16:24:22] <stpeter> oops
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[16:24:40] <stpeter> solution: use a server that supports filtered notifications
[16:24:44] <yagiza> Yes
[16:24:48] <Kev> i.e. PEP
[16:24:49] <yagiza> But
[16:25:21] <yagiza> That's a solution for those who live in an ideal world.
[16:26:26] <yagiza> Unfortunately I'm living in the real one, so I cannot force everyone who uses my client force to look for a server with a
specific feature implemented.
[16:26:50] <yagiza> And, according to XEP, Filtered Notification is optional.
[16:27:13] <yagiza> So, leak of this feature is not a bug, right?
[16:27:21] <Kev> Which XEP?
[16:27:52] <stpeter> http://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0163.html says that support for filtered notifications is required for PEP
[16:28:20] <stpeter> IIRC
[16:28:43] <Kev> It does.
[16:28:51] <Kev> Both auto-subscribe and filtered-notifications.
[16:29:10] <Kev> So if a server claims to support PEP and doesn't do them, it's a bug.
[16:29:18] <stpeter> so there are some server developers who haven't implemented PEP correctly
[16:29:20] <stpeter> they need to be fixed
[16:31:03] <yagiza> Yeah, my mistake
[16:31:36] <yagiza> I've missed it in the XEP-0163
[16:32:48] <yagiza> Newer versions of eJabberd support filtered notifications, but server administrators do not hurry to upgrade their software...
[16:33:01] <yagiza> And...
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[16:34:02] <yagiza> I've found that they broken another thing in those new versions: retract notifications seems not to be working anymore...
(v_v)
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[16:38:43] <Florob> the opposite is true. Newer versions of ejabberd don't support filtered notifications. Or rather: They filter at the wrong
end
[16:50:51] <yagiza> Err...
[16:51:38] <yagiza> I have eJabberd v2.1.5 running here.
[16:51:57] <yagiza> And see no problem with filtered notifications.
[16:52:18] <yagiza> Florob, what do you mean?
[16:52:26] <Kev> Have you checked what it's sending to other servers?
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[16:52:50] <Kev> In some recent versions, there was a bug where it would only do filtered notifications for local users, and spam all remote
users regardless.
[16:52:50] <yagiza> Kev, no
[16:53:14] <yagiza> That was cute!
[16:53:31] <yagiza> Sounds really wonderful.
[16:53:41] <Florob> i.e. it filtered on the receiving end rather than the sending end
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[16:54:02] <Florob> Kev, did they actually acknowledge that's a bug by now?
[16:54:04] <yagiza> Have to check it
[16:54:11] <Kev> Florob: Not as far as I know.
[16:54:59] <Florob> Kev, personally I'm not comfortable with calling it a bug... It's defective by design :(
[16:56:03] <Kev> I don't mind what you call it :)
[16:59:22] <yagiza> For some reason 2 most buggy servers (eJabberd and OpenFire) are most popular across internet...
[17:00:07] <louiz’> They are older than the good ones
[17:00:20] <louiz’> -s
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[21:41:18] <Zash> Is there a CLI xmpp client that doesn't suck?
[21:41:33] <louiz’> poezio ?
[21:41:35] <louiz’> :^)
[21:41:42] <waqas> :)
[21:41:46] <louiz’> why does mcabber does suck?
[21:42:00] <Zash> duno, it doesn't work any more
[21:42:03] <louiz’> (i'm asking, in order to make poezio different :p)
[21:42:04] <louiz’> oh
[21:42:05] <Zash> does it do starttls?
[21:42:21] <Zash> cause i suspect it only does oldstyle ssl
[21:42:48] <louiz’> mcabber?
[21:43:13] <Zash> yes
[21:43:23] <louiz’> I don't know
[21:44:18] <Zash> It just says
[23:44:06] [Jabber] Communication with the server established
[23:44:06] Received error packet [service-unavailable]
[21:44:59] <louiz’> what is, exactly, the difference between tls and starttls?
[21:45:56] <Zash> starttls is the command you send when you want to .. start tls
[21:46:00] <Zash> in-band
[21:46:34] <louiz’> oh, ok, I thought it was something different :p
[21:46:41] <louiz’> then poezio does \o
[21:47:20] <Zash> mcabber sends <iq><query xmlns='jabber:iq:auth'> .. after getting stream features that state that starttls is required
[21:47:45] <MattJ> Zash, iirc the latest version or beta or something does support starttls
[21:47:52] <MattJ> and SASL
[21:48:18] <Zash> nice, but that isn't in ubuntu repos for lucid :(
[21:48:26] <MattJ> :(
[21:48:40] <louiz’> :(
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