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[09:36:54] <dwd> evilotto, Reading through the history, you can resynch the MUC occupant list by "rejoining" with a history control. (Well, without the history control too, but then you get the history again). At least on M-Link.
[09:37:32] <dwd> (And yes, I know he's not here, and that his comments were two days ago.)
[09:41:07] <Zash> more clients needs history control :/
[09:42:04] <dwd> Zash, Gajim does, which is nice. Weirdly, some of the mobile clients don't.
[09:42:08] <Zash> dwd: can m-link store more than it sends by default to clients without <history/>
[09:42:12] <Zash> ?
[09:42:25] <Zash> dwd: indeed it is :D
[09:42:34] <Kev> Zash: I do plan to do that for Swift.
[09:42:49] <Zash> :D
[09:42:54] <Kev> Somewhere in the middle of 'real MUC support'
[09:42:54] <dwd> Zash, It sends whatever it has by default. Not a bad idea, though, it'd be easy to make the default history control shorter than the max-items.
[09:43:35] <Zash> dwd: prosody does that ;)
[09:45:49] <dwd> Zash, Does Prosody have a clear history option yet? That one was deemed very important by lots of our customers, yet ignored the moment we did it.
[09:46:32] <Zash> it does not
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[10:26:39] <Zash> dwd: I've got ~10 untested LOC of Lua that might do just that now ;)
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[16:27:49] <evilotto> dwd: how can you "rejoin" a muc without leaving it first? joining is just sending a presence.
[16:31:51] <evilotto> history control as I understand it is also flawed - it should support "since I was last here", without the client needing to specify when they were last here since the client probably doesn't know that. And you should also be able to request the history at any time. And history should be able to include presence changes.
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[16:32:00] <evilotto> /me . o O (and you kids should get off my lawn)
[16:33:22] <MattJ> evilotto, joins have an extra MUC tag in them
[16:34:26] <evilotto> hrm, they do? The <x/> is just for joins?
[16:35:01] <Kev> Yes.
[16:35:13] <Kev> You send the <x/> when you want to join the room, never when you're in it.
[16:35:31] <Kev> So a server can say "Oh, I thought they were here already, but they've sent an <x/>, it must have been a ghost"
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[16:42:58] <evilotto> that is not obvious from reading the spec. I gather that the intent is all stanzas that include the <x http://jabber.org/muc> element are intended to he interpreted by the muc itself, and not treated as "normal" messages?
[16:43:58] <Kev> The <x/> is only mentioned in one place, and that's the join, no?
[16:47:51] <evilotto> no, it shows up throughout. presence changes as a result a user being kicked, room configuration changes, etc.
[16:48:29] <Kev> I don't think that's true.
[16:48:43] <evilotto> maybe not on what the user is sending, could just be stuff from the server ... I skimmed it kinda quickly
[16:48:53] <Kev> It's not on stuff the server sends, either.
[16:48:56] <Kev> It's only used for joins.
[16:49:23] <Kev> Well, the server will send it for join errors, of course, but not for kicks and things.
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[16:54:02] <evilotto> well, some things use <x xmlns=http://jabber.org/muc#user>
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[16:54:39] <Kev> Which is a different namespace.
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[17:00:04] <deryni> A muc service is free to implement "since you were last here" history with the spec as is, they just don't because it is more work.
[17:00:22] <deryni> The spec just doesn't have a way for the client to request that if that's supported and not the default.
[17:01:34] <evilotto> ok, I'll rephrase my understanding: the general intent is that any stanzas including a child in the http://jabber.org/muc namespace or fragments therof are understood to be communication to/from the muc itself, not communication to the users.
[17:02:46] <evilotto> sorry, http://jabber.org/protocol/muc
[17:03:25] <Kev> Not sure I'm following what you're saying
[17:03:38] <Kev> If you're saying that everything with a http://jabber.org/protocol/muc* namespace is MUC-related, then yes.
[17:04:43] <stpeter> I think he's saying that everything with that namespace is used to communicate between client and MUC service, not among clients
[17:06:42] <Kev> Well, right, clients don't do MUC amongst themselves.
[17:07:50] <stpeter> right sure
[17:07:55] <stpeter> on the phone
[17:10:07] <evilotto> if I send something to the muc, and I sending it to the muc, or to all the users in the muc? with that namespace, the answer is the latter, without it is the former.
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[17:11:58] <evilotto> deryni: that's not terribly useful.
[17:12:51] <deryni> What isn't? Not being able to specifically request it?
[17:12:53] <cisox> I have a quick question about MUC. I'm developing a client, and I would like to request discussion history for a MUC independently of joining a MUC. Is it possible?
[17:14:03] <evilotto> yes, not being able to request it, or to even tell if that's what's being done.
[17:14:33] <Kev> cisox: no.
[17:14:43] <deryni> You can't tell what other history limit was used if you don't request it either, so that's no differne.t
[17:14:45] <Kev> cisox: Although with the new message archiving stuff that Matt's working on, you could.
[17:14:59] <Kev> MattJ: right? :)
[17:15:02] <MattJ> Right :)
[17:15:17] <MattJ> I'm looking for a moment to knock together a test client for it
[17:15:31] <deryni> Is there anything stopping a service from responding to history requests at any time?
[17:15:34] <Kev> Why not just use Swift? :D
[17:15:38] <Kev> (I know, I know, it's not Lua)
[17:15:42] <MattJ> It's not Lua :)
[17:15:56] <cisox> Okay. Thanks. I'm developing a web client and I guess I will just have to leave and rejoin the MUC on page refreshes.
[17:16:34] <deryni> Or rather, that was a silly question since dwd already said M-Link will do it.
[17:17:16] <evilotto> cisox: read the last 20m of history here :) IIUC, you can re-join the room without leaving it first, which will (may) re-send you the history. Depending on the server.
[17:18:00] <cisox> evilotto: Thanks. I'll look through it. I'm using EJabberd. I suppose I can always make it return the history on re-join.
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[17:21:15] <evilotto> and a general rant about xml namespaces - if a namespace is a http url, then there could easily be documentation or a quick-reference about the meaning and use of that namespace at that url. Why does virtually no one actually do that?
[17:21:38] <evilotto> blame the w3c, probably ...
[17:22:01] <deryni> How would blaming them make sense?
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[17:25:19] <evilotto> I was going to say that they set the example of not doing it, but it looks like they actually do just that.
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[17:29:45] <ermine> MattJ: nothing instead of xml schema is planed yet?
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[17:36:10] <MattJ> ermine, hmm?
[17:36:42] <stpeter> MattJ: ermine still wants ASN.1 definitions of XMPP :)
[17:36:56] <stpeter> to which my answer is: have fun working on that
[17:37:00] <ermine> MattJ: relax ng or other way to describe stanzas
[17:37:15] <MattJ> ermine, I was looking at validation again recently
[17:37:15] <ermine> oh, live stpeter
[17:37:26] <stpeter> if I had infinite time, I'd work on Relax NG, but my time is extremely limited
[17:37:29] <MattJ> I really don't like XML schemas, but I don't volunteer to rewrite them
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[17:38:17] <MattJ> stpeter, incidentally reviewing 3921bis for the WGLC(1) is still top of my todo... I could cry
[17:38:34] <MattJ> As much as I've managed to get through seems ok though
[17:38:41] <stpeter> ok
[17:38:50] <stpeter> Ben Campbell asked me about that the other day
[17:38:52] <MattJ> Perhaps I should have started at the end to counter everyone else who read the first half :)
[17:39:03] <Kev> I read all of it.
[17:39:09] <Kev> I'm not claiming to not have missed stuff, but ...
[17:39:10] <stpeter> I suggested leaving more days for review -- until, say, Monday evening
[17:39:22] <Kev> It's the new drafts that I haven't reviewed.
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[17:40:56] <MattJ> stpeter, the more days the better, I *am* reviewing it, just in small pieces
[17:41:02] <stpeter> /me nods
[17:41:09] <stpeter> there's no huge hurry
[17:41:47] <MattJ> No, I don't want to be accused of slowing down the IETF - that would be a record, and Tobias would tease me forever :)
[17:42:21] <MattJ> 3920bis got a lot more feedback, but perhaps there was just more in it to talk about
[17:42:36] <stpeter> I think so
[17:42:48] <Tobias> heh
[17:42:55] <stpeter> 3921bis has more repetition and more examples, I think
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[17:43:12] <Kev> I think 3920 killed enthusiasm for reviewing, tbh :)
[17:43:18] <MattJ> :P
[17:43:23] <stpeter> that's part of it, too
[17:43:34] <stpeter> I realize that it's a lot to cover
[17:44:05] <MattJ> We should just drop XMPP and use ssh
[17:44:14] <stpeter> /me laughs
[17:44:27] <ermine> we need in saint peter to switch into asn.1
[17:45:23] <ermine> MattJ: ssl uses asn.1, you know
[17:45:38] <MattJ> Yes :)
[17:46:45] <ermine> well, in short, i wanna strong description of protocol, more strong than existing xml schemas
[17:47:08] <Tobias> ASN.1 definitions for XMPP? isn't ASN.1 also used by X.509?
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[17:48:36] <ermine> MattJ: btw, is psi "compatible" with prosody's caps processing?
[17:49:04] <MattJ> No idea - does it even do the new version of the XEP?
[17:49:17] <Kev> 1.3
[17:49:25] <Kev> Or 1.2 maybe.
[17:49:29] <Kev> Pre 1.4, anyway.
[17:49:50] <ermine> someone said me that psi calculate the hash wrongly
[17:49:59] <Kev> It doesn't calculate a hash.
[17:50:41] <ermine> hm
[17:50:56] <stpeter> heh, "<ermine> we need in saint peter to switch into asn.1" -- I'm perfectly happy with my formal description being DNA, thank you very much ;-)
[17:52:04] <ermine> dna? wtf?
[17:52:32] <Kev> Deoxyribonucleic acid.
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[17:53:21] <evilotto> Dsitributed Network Architecture. some MSFT standard.
[17:56:23] <ermine> interesting..
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[18:04:51] <ermine> so are xml schemas formal or non-formal descriptions of xeps?
[18:05:25] <dwd> ermine, In XEPs, my understanding is they're non-normative. In the RFC, though, they're normative.
[18:05:37] <dwd> Both are formal, but that's probably not what you meant.
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[18:06:16] <dwd> (An ASN.1 syntax to be expressed as X.693 would also be formal, but it wouldn't be normative unless the XSF/IETF blessed it to be so).
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[18:06:57] <ermine> dwd: do you use any tool to process normative or non-normaive shcemas or use your eyes only?
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[18:09:02] <dwd> ermine, Oh, my brain, too.
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[18:12:53] <ermine> dwd: probably it is a proper way to use schemas :-))
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[19:49:50] <Tobias> isn't there a jingle filetransfer transport method that uses ICE? i just see SOCKS5 and in-band on the xep list
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[20:00:36] <Tobias> mlundblad: do you know?
[20:00:37] <Tobias> :)
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[20:17:01] <mlundblad> Tobias: not as an XEP
[20:17:07] <mlundblad> there is Google's stuff
[20:17:21] <Tobias> mlundblad: but one would want that right?
[20:17:24] <Tobias> :)
[20:19:05] <Tobias> i mean the more p2p possible the better
[20:19:28] <Tobias> and the chances for bytestream to work p2p are pretty low
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[20:34:38] <mlundblad> yes, I'm beginning to think using the google-like approach with psuedo-tcp might not be that bad of an idea
[20:34:41] <mlundblad> after all
[20:35:05] <mlundblad> well, p2p would work using s5b if one client has UPnP or similar, ideally
[20:37:48] <Tobias> yeah..UPnP/NAT-PNP plays well especially with ICE
[21:16:54] <Florob> Kev, can you point me to where 3921bis says you need to store childs of roster items?
[21:23:28] <waqas> It doesn't say that. It just doesn't say you should discard them.
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[21:32:37] <Florob> waqas, that's what I was thinking, but this kind off contradicts what's been said on standards@
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