Logs for jdev

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[09:36:56] <Florob> Hmm... does someone know if google has really started to use "standard jingle" as claimed on p.j.o?
[09:38:29] <Asterix> ho, so they really want to update their jingle implementation?
[09:40:16] <Florob> Asterix, well, I'd like to know. Until proven wrong I'll assume this is just marketing-talk "we are awesome we use standards (and don't tell you it's our modified version)"
[09:41:02] <Asterix> that would prevent us to do some hack to suport gmail jingle implementation ...
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[10:44:08] <Tobias> ahh..nice...seems google really plans to update its jingle stack after long: http://code.google.com/p/libjingle/wiki/FAQ
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[12:49:34] <mlundblad_laptop> the question is: will they they update there STUN and TURN stuff to be compliant too?
[12:49:57] <mlundblad_laptop> right now, in libnice we have a special compatibilty mode for google
[12:50:37] <Zash> "special compatibilty mode for google" *facepalm*
[12:50:47] <Zash> why does it sound like microsoft?
[12:51:48] <mlundblad_laptop> because that's basically what it is...
[12:56:01] <dwd> Google Talk - the Internet Explorer of XMPP.
[12:57:25] <mlundblad_laptop> Google Live Messenger
[12:57:26] <mlundblad_laptop> :p
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[15:07:24] <louiz> isn't the pretty print of the XML messed up in this example? http://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0083.html#usecases-retrieve
[15:08:09] <louiz> Shouldn't the server and the client stanzas be in TWO separated <p> ?
[15:08:10] <waqas> I suspect the pretty printing happens when the text starts with '<'
[15:08:11] <waqas> That's just a guess
[15:08:28] <louiz> the "CLIENT:" and "SERVER:" shouldn't be there, i think.
[15:08:43] <louiz> that should be out of the pretty printed paragraph
[15:09:25] <waqas> They are there if you look at the XML: http://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0083.xml
[15:09:55] <louiz> firefox give me an erreur :p
[15:10:04] <waqas> View source
[15:10:32] <louiz> yes, done. But that's what I'm saying, these "CLIENT:" stuff should not be there...
[15:10:39] <Zash> <iq type='get'
[15:10:56] <Zash> oh, the > is on the next line, nm
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[15:11:20] <waqas> louiz: Add an issue to tracker.xmpp.org, with a patch if you can :)
[15:12:12] <dwd> What's [xep 83]?
[15:12:13] <Kanchil> dwd: XEP-0083: Nested Roster Groups is Informational (Active, 2004-10-11) See: http://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0083.html
[15:12:17] <dwd> Oh.
[15:12:57] <dwd> louiz, You're the one doing a pubsub browser in Gajim, right? How's that going?
[15:14:14] <dwd> Eeek. Interaction between 0083 and 0060/0163 is quite terrifying. :-)
[15:15:04] <Zash> :|
[15:15:14] <Zash> !xep 163
[15:15:14] <Kanchil> Zash: XEP-0163: Personal Eventing Protocol is Standards Track (Draft, 2007-09-26) See: http://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0163.html
[15:15:51] <dwd> Zash, If you use a group "parent" to do access control, it's not going to do what you think.
[15:16:01] <Zash> Yes
[15:16:10] <dwd> Zash, "luckily", as far as I know, no PEP implementations allow you to do access control.
[15:16:22] <deryni> 0083 is just ugly
[15:16:42] <Zash> Is there any client which supports that?
[15:21:37] <louiz> dwd, right, that's me. I did work a lot on it lately, I did some other stuff...
[15:21:59] <louiz> I'll be back on that once I finished the other thing I'm working on
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[15:49:24] <Zash> Wth, aim has facebook chat now too?
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[16:44:16] <louiz> tracker.xmpp.org is down :(
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[17:01:11] <bear> i'm looking into why tracker is down
[17:01:27] <Kev> Thanks bear.
[17:01:38] <bear> if I can remember how to sudo ... ;)
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[17:07:49] <bear> ok, jira restarted
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[17:07:58] <bear> looking at logs to see what happened
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[19:41:19] <Tobias> mlundblad: well..i don't know what their exact plans are but we can always create an issue at their project page to request them fixing it
[19:41:20] <Tobias> :)
[19:41:45] <mlundblad> hehe :)
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[20:18:50] <Florob> no logs?
[20:20:10] <Florob> hah... found them in the hidden lair
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[21:06:45] <Guus> Hey, we just released Openfire 3.7.0 beta
[21:06:46] <Guus> http://community.igniterealtime.org/blogs/ignite/2010/08/26/openfire-370-beta-is-released
[21:07:08] <Tobias> yay
[21:07:15] <Guus> my thoughts exactly
[21:07:50] <Tobias> well...actually that depends on the changelog :P
[21:08:47] <Tobias> Guus: btw: does openfire use its own SASL stack or some third party one?
[21:15:07] <Guus> Tobias: most of it is implemented by Jive Software, I believe
[21:15:19] <Guus> didn't touch that code ever, so I'd have to check to be absolutely sure
[21:15:24] <Tobias> k
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[21:15:34] <Guus> but I'm looking at all kinds of references to internal classes, not external libs
[21:15:39] <waqas> It used javax.security.sasl.* IIRC
[21:16:05] <Tobias> waqas: that doesn't come with java right?
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[21:16:50] <waqas> It does, AFAIK
[21:17:09] <Guus> waqas is right
[21:17:16] <Guus> I missed that in my quick browse
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[21:39:34] <louiz> I have a question about the MUST/SHOULD in XEPs. Why do some XEP allow implementations to break interoperability by using SHOULDs?
[21:40:45] <johnny> you should probably mention a few specific examples
[21:41:23] <johnny> perhaps there's a good reason, perhaps just an oversight, might be a different answer for each
[21:41:24] <louiz> the SHOULD in XEP 0045 stating that a message SHOULD have a type "groupchat"
[21:41:29] <louiz> why is that not a MUST?
[21:41:43] <johnny> i bet you'll get a specific answer to that one :)
[21:44:15] <louiz> that'd be great :)
[21:46:11] <Zash> If it says SHOULD, then it's not breaking spec to leave it out if you have a good reason
[21:46:48] <louiz> then no implementation can rely on it.
[21:46:53] <louiz> Then it's useless.
[21:49:41] <MattJ> louiz, no, you're entirely able to rely on it
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[21:50:06] <louiz> then what Zash said isn't true, no?
[21:50:09] <MattJ> But if another implementation chooses not to follow the SHOULD, then they MUST be aware of the consequences
[21:51:52] <louiz> Then, not ignoring a SHOULD breaks interoperability, because other implementations relying on this will not interoperate...
[21:51:58] <louiz> -not
[21:53:24] <MattJ> Yes, it MAY indeed, that's why you SHOULD NOT break it :)
[21:54:28] <louiz> ok :) But I still don't understand the purpose of a SHOULD :)
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[21:55:56] <MattJ> There may be valid reasons to send messages of other types in a MUC, and the XEP doesn't say you can't use them, you just have to be aware of the implications if you do that
[21:57:07] <louiz> But in that case, the implication is "clients will ignore your message" :/
[21:57:21] <MattJ> Yep, it might be
[21:57:53] <MattJ> So why anyone would break that rule, I don't know, but there may still exist circumstances (where they know the clients are designed to handle it, etc.)
[21:58:21] <louiz> But a XEP saying "by the way, you're authorized to do something that doesn't work" is obvious. You don't need a "should" of the XEP to do something that doesn't work :p
[21:59:06] <hawke> It’s not that it doesn’t work…
[21:59:31] <hawke> …just that its working or not becomes dependent on the specific client(s) (and possibly server)
[22:00:20] <louiz> but a MUST has the same effect
[22:02:30] <louiz> It will work only with specific clients that ALSO doesn't follow the XEP
[22:02:34] <louiz> I don't see the difference
[22:03:04] <waqas> louiz: Where does the MUC XEP say SHOULD for "groupchat"?
[22:04:20] <MattJ> Wha, it's waqas
[22:05:18] <louiz> waqas, hum, you're right: nowhere :/ I thought I read something like that, but I'm wrong.
[22:05:38] <louiz> My example is wrong, but it doesn't change the fact that sometimes I don't see why it's not a MUST
[22:07:53] <louiz> I must be confusing this one with an other spec...
[22:10:43] <waqas> MUST would work if XEPs were supposed to be set in stone, but there are often valid reasons for implementations to not follow SHOULDs, and the XEPs themselves can change.
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[22:38:32] <johnny> that's why i'm glad there were versions added to xmlns
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[22:39:18] <waqas> Which are not without problems
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