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[10:15:52] <alkino> hi all
[10:17:04] <jonas> hello
[10:17:40] <alkino> what are the "others" use of jingle ?
[10:17:50] <alkino> except Voice, Video and FT
[10:18:07] <jonas> SXE, general byte stream initiation
[10:18:10] <Tobias> anything? you could do VNC over Jingle?
[10:18:53] <jonas> well, i assume it's possible to implement in some way
[10:19:06] <alkino> ok
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[10:20:05] <alkino> and if there is mistake in XEP, do you care ?
[10:20:07] <alkino> mistake = typos
[10:20:29] <alkino> and c/p
[10:20:40] <Tobias> sure
[10:20:57] <Tobias> we happily fix typos and such
[10:21:21] <alkino> XEP 166: example 1
[10:21:28] <alkino> (and in a lot of others XEP)
[10:21:41] <alkino> <jingle xmlns="..."> sid="..."
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[10:21:50] <alkino> some attributes are outside the node
[10:22:06] <alkino> This mistake is in a lot of Jingle XEP
[10:22:46] <alkino> XEP 234
[10:23:00] <alkino> Example 6. Receiver sends session-terminate => Example 6. Initiator sends a hash
[10:25:00] <Tobias> maybe we should add a script that checks the examples on wellformed-ness
[10:25:01] <Tobias> :)
[10:26:30] <alkino> hum maybe
[10:27:19] <Tobias> we already have a tool that checks for references to dead links :)
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[10:46:19] <Zash> If you enforce wellformedness of examples, don't you need to invent a <unrelated-stuff-here/> element to replace [...] ;P
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[18:24:29] <ckemmler> hi guys
[18:24:35] <^WMattJ> Hi
[18:25:27] <ckemmler> I have an XMPP extension idea/project about which I'm thinking a lot these days and I wanted to ask you for your comments and maybe your help in designing its architecture
[18:25:40] <ckemmler> first things first: is this the right place for doing so?
[18:26:46] <^WMattJ> Sure, if it's related to XMPP development :)
[18:26:51] <ckemmler> I was thinking that maybe some forum would be more appropriate, but I'm not sure which
[18:26:55] <ckemmler> sure it is
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[18:31:11] <ckemmler> OK, I'll try my best to explain it in a few words: It's got a lot of common with PEP. The only thing that's different is that I want people to be able to create stateemnt "types" and invite people to follow a particular statement types. Those "types" of statements define a syntax by means of which a parser is able to "understand" status updates that are published to this service. Perhaps a more complete presentation of my idea could be found at http://groups.google.com/group/onesocialweb/browse_thread/thread/673d810f83ca4bc4
[18:33:20] <ckemmler> essentially, when someone follows someone else, it first follows the _kinds_ of statements that are made available to them, then they should be able to subscribe to any of these kinds of statements. eg if I want some of my friends to follow my gym stats and don't want them to follow, or even know that I'm tracking - information about my moods
[18:35:27] <^WMattJ> How does this differ to normal PEP?
[18:35:31] * ^WMattJ in now known as MattJ.
[18:36:06] <Kev> ckemmler: That's exactly what PEP's for.
[18:36:16] <Kev> So it should be a pretty simple XEP to build on top of 163.
[18:36:24] <ckemmler> in normal PEP you have a fixed set of activities, and you make these activities public to anyone to subscribe to
[18:36:39] <ckemmler> I don't want everyone to know what activities I want to log
[18:36:59] <ckemmler> and I want to be able to create new activity types and be able to parse them
[18:37:18] <Kev> Right, it needs slightly more of 60 than 163 gives you by default, but it's still PEP.
[18:37:28] <ckemmler> also the activities have to be persisted and I don't know that that's the case with PEP
[18:37:30] <ckemmler> sure
[18:37:46] <ckemmler> but it's not _quite_ that and I don't know how to use it to tweak it that way
[18:38:03] <ckemmler> besides, I'm not sure either how I should proceed
[18:38:41] <ckemmler> the libraries I have written sofar are in java and they use JPA for the persistence, hence I'm targeting openfire and I don't know if that has PEP support yet
[18:39:18] <Kev> Easiest thing is to post to the standards list with a rough idea of how you want it to work for discussion, then write some demo code, then write a XEP.
[18:39:34] <johnny> ugh.. openfire :(
[18:40:00] <ckemmler> I was thinking that, first off, I would need to have a way to pubsub the activity types that any given user would like to make available
[18:40:01] <johnny> well.. there's always tigase as well..
[18:40:13] <ckemmler> do you think tigase is better?
[18:40:14] <Kev> I think you should be able to manage this without server-side changes.
[18:41:44] <ckemmler> well there's the parsing part and then I want users to be able to retrieve their activities based on the activity type which, as I said, is a variable, not something that's hardwired like in PEP as it currently is. I don't see how I would be able to do this on the client
[18:42:44] <ckemmler> Kev, what standards list should I write to?
[18:42:52] <Kev> xmpp.org, standards@
[18:43:26] <ckemmler> ok thanks will do for sure
[18:44:14] <ckemmler> any idea what client and server implement PEP?
[18:44:40] <Kev> AFK now, sorry.
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[18:45:38] <Asterix> ejabberd implements a good part of PEP, MattJ will give you the exact state of prosody about that
[18:46:19] <MattJ> Prosody implements PEP, but no config or persistent nodes yet
[18:46:21] <Asterix> for clients, psi, gajim at least does
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[18:54:28] <shahin> hi all
[18:54:51] <shahin> does anyone have any experience with the Strophe library?
[18:55:04] <MattJ> shahin, yes, what's up?
[18:55:50] <shahin> I've got the echobot example working fine against a local instance of ejabberd
[18:56:02] <shahin> but I can't seem to connect to the speeqe server
[18:56:14] <shahin> which as far as I know is the only public BOSH server
[18:57:26] <shahin> is it possible that this is disallowed by the speeqe server?
[18:57:50] <shahin> I would think not, since obviously, speeqe uses Strophe itself
[19:00:28] <MattJ> shahin, browsers will only allow scripts to connect to the domain they were served from
[19:00:39] <MattJ> Unless the browser and remote domain support CORS
[19:00:50] <shahin> ah I thought that might be it
[19:00:57] <shahin> ok thanks
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[19:34:51] <johnny> shahin, you can either proxy or use flXHR
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[19:44:50] <ckemmler> Hi again, still on previous thread... trying to experiment with PEP... I just looked at the User Activity xep (0108): the very sad thing about it IMO is again the fixed list of activity types. I cannot imagine that anyone could actually use that: 1) it's a completely arbitrary list - I do understand that you cannot for example make a list of, let's say, all sports, or all drinks or types of chores, but then why has anyone even bothered. OK you can put your activity in <other/> but then it just feels like you're doing something odd, something that wasn't on the menu of allowed things to do. And then 2) if the data is not persisted, then why on earth would someone want to log that kind of information and 3) what about stats: doesn't it strike you as obvious that, if someone is willing to log their exercising habit, they will then also want to log the duration of their exercising and possibly also the distance they've run/swam, etc...? I have now installed Tigase, which advertises PEP support, as well as using psi which also is supposed to support PEP. When I do a service discovery in psi though, I can only see publish-subscribe, and Multi-User chat, but no PEP... any idea how I can actually see PEP in real life?
[19:47:26] <Asterix> I think XEP says that you can add your own activities
[19:49:17] <ckemmler> Asterix: it's not very clear. What is says is following: "The activity values defined in this taxonomy are as follows, where the first indentation level is the general category and the second indentation level is the specific instance. Note: The specific activity elements are RECOMMENDED as forms of the general activities shown below, but can be included under any general activity (e.g., "gardening" could be used as the specific activity under "relaxing" rather than "doing_chores")."
[19:49:53] <ckemmler> (how do I address a specific user here? Asterix: doenst work, do I have to do <Asterix>?)
[19:50:24] <Asterix> Asterix: works
[19:50:34] <Asterix> messahe is highlighted here
[19:51:56] <ckemmler> anyway, the other thing is I do not see why the activities have two levels either.... ah ok (highlighting) but most importantly, I think it's the statistical information that's missing most, e.g. distance, duration, weight, what have you...
[19:52:43] <Asterix> do you think ppl can read future? when I'm out, I don't know how many seconds I'll be out ...
[19:52:44] <ckemmler> AFK
[19:52:49] <Asterix> nor how far I'll go
[19:53:43] <johnny> i don't think you have to follow the exact list.. that was just a way to get the conversation started imo ckemmler
[19:53:58] <johnny> i doubt anybody expected that every activity could fit under that defined list
[19:54:07] <johnny> xeps can be modified.. new versions can be released
[19:54:22] <johnny> it's not set in stone
[19:55:00] <Asterix> and I thought we could define our namespace to add more activities, am I wrong?
[19:56:23] <Asterix> I cannot find that in XEP, only in my ppor memory ...
[19:58:23] <johnny> ckemmler, when posting this to the list, focus on the problem your'e trying to solve.. before suggesting how it might be solved
[19:58:32] <johnny> it could spark off a new round of interesting xeps
[19:58:39] <johnny> or ways to clean up other existing ones
[20:03:03] <ckemmler> johnny: thanks for the advice, I will try to do what you suggest in pubsub@xmpp.org (or any other list that you think is more appropriate)
[20:03:21] <johnny> that's not something i can say.. i'm not a spec guy
[20:03:40] <johnny> i just know the people who are involved in the spec are pretty awesome
[20:03:44] <johnny> and not super rigid
[20:04:10] <johnny> they usually strike a good balance, which is why xmpp is becoming so ubiquitous
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[20:04:54] <johnny> the xeps are there to have common patterns to help people solve problems
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[20:43:24] <Florob> Asterix, you can use namespaces to define new activities (that's normal XMPP extensibility after all), but other clients won't understand it
[20:47:59] <johnny> shouldn't there be some sort of basic client support?
[20:48:07] <johnny> i've always wondered about that
[20:48:28] <johnny> so that even if they had no custom logic, they could still view a textual representation
[20:48:49] <johnny> like, if my client doesn't implement user activity, why couldn't it still show me that it says Activity: Happy
[20:48:51] <johnny> err
[20:48:54] <johnny> sorry that's mood :)
[20:48:57] <johnny> hah
[20:52:27] <Florob> johnny, because part of PEP is that you're signalling interest.
[20:52:47] <johnny> ok?
[20:52:55] <Kev> Florob: Your mail server bounced my message.
[20:53:00] <johnny> sure.. i should still be able to signal interest
[20:53:09] <johnny> as long as my client supports pep overall
[20:53:17] <johnny> even if it won't show me the fancy icon
[20:53:18] <Florob> Kev, ...it did? Let me have a look, but that's certainly new
[20:53:40] <Kev> I replied to all on the WG list, went fine to the list, but the reply to you bounced.
[20:57:52] <Florob> Kev, what error did you get? You're not in my reject- or mainlog ...
[20:59:02] <Kev> Technical details of permanent failure: Google tried to deliver your message, but it was rejected by the recipient domain. We recommend contacting the other email provider for further information about the cause of this error. The error that the other server returned was: 550 550 Administrative prohibition (state 14).
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[21:11:23] <Florob> Kev, sigh... that seems to be what you get for using gmail. That /24 is blocked because it has too many spamming IPs in it. Maybe I should switch from using DNSBL to graylisting...
[21:11:45] <Kev> Haha, you've blacklisted gmail?
[21:11:58] <Kev> That seems overenthusiastic :)
[21:13:50] <johnny> Florob, grey listing has been good to me for awhile
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[21:14:03] <Florob> Kev, not me SORBS
[21:14:10] <johnny> but maybe i'm just lucky.. i get about 5 spams a month
[21:14:20] <Kev> Greylisting is such an amusing concept.
[21:14:24] <johnny> and havaen't heard that somebody tried to contact me but couldn't
[21:14:34] <johnny> Kev, you'd think the bots would have adapted by now
[21:14:36] <Kev> "Sorry squire, I just can't deliver that message. Nah, just kidding, just kidding, haha."
[21:15:16] <Florob> johnny, well, it's the second time I've... and it's always some overly large deployment I'd never use ;)
[21:15:16] <Kev> It's not worth the effort to work around greylisting.
[21:17:16] <Florob> Kev, what mail was that BTW. I can't seem to find one that I got from the WG list that was also addressed to me...
[21:18:04] <Kev> I'll be migrating away from gmail once I have a decent IMAP client, and I've worked out how to set up smtp competently (where competent sees it authing from ldap, and using TLS).
[21:18:11] <Kev> The latter is less effort than the former.
[21:18:32] <Kev> > Maybe I'm just overlooking something, but doesn't this break parsing > that current clients are doing? And if so is this enough of an edge > case/unimportant enough that we are willing to accept that? > I tend to say yes to both, but mostly hope I'm just wrong ;) Ah, ok, so the point was raised here, thanks Florian for getting there long before me :) So, yes, this could be breaking the parsing of clients against 3921, which I *think* means we need to bump up to XMPP-1.1 (or 2.0 or whatever) for bis if we make the change in this way. I'm opposed to increasing the version number at the moment.
[21:20:07] <Florob> grml... I did not get that one at all. And I do get mails from the list... That's bad.
[21:21:23] <MattJ> Perhaps the list saw you in the recipients list and decided not to deliver it twic
[21:21:23] <MattJ> e
[21:21:31] <Kev> Could be.
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[21:22:38] <Florob> Well, anyway. Mails from that server should end up in my inbox again now, so I'll see how that works out...
[21:23:12] <Kev> So have you had none of my insightful mails about 3920bis and 3921bis? :)
[21:23:40] <Florob> none that were also addressed to me too I guess, but I did get a bunch yesterday
[21:23:49] <Kev> Ah, of course, yes.
[21:23:55] <Kev> It's late and I'm tired :)
[21:24:16] <MattJ> ditto
[21:24:20] <MattJ> Perhaps I'll go to bed
[21:24:28] <Kev> I'm considering the same
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[21:31:23] <Tobias> Kev: clang still building?
[21:31:30] <Kev> Oh, well done.
[21:31:34] <Kev> I should go turn off my laptop :)
[21:31:38] <Tobias> heh
[21:31:55] <Tobias> i've yet to feel it being faster than gcc
[21:32:09] <Tobias> and not produce binaries that need 500 MB ram
[21:33:14] <Kev> Gn.
[21:33:17] <Tobias> n8
[21:33:17] <MattJ> nn
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