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[07:13:46] <migne> this is good
[07:14:34] <MattJ> :)
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[07:39:01] <Alex> migne: indeed it is ;-)
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[08:00:02] <Guus> Can anyone recommend an introduction to XMPP that's suitable for sales-type people? xmpp.org has a lot of specifications, but those aren't really suited to pitch XMPP, as far as I can see.
[08:03:05] <johnny> focus on the features
[08:03:38] <johnny> find out what you're trying to sell and point out solutions that handle it
[08:03:48] <Guus> I was actually looking for existing resources :)
[08:04:02] <Kev_> Guus: The book.
[08:04:04] <Guus> I'm not going to pitch it myself, but I do want others in my organization to read up on XMPP
[08:04:24] <Kev_> Let me just grab it to check it's reasonable, but it should be.
[08:05:37] <Kev_> Yeah - there are bits non-techies will gloss over, but that's ok.
[08:05:46] <Kev_> I think it's still a pretty good guide to stuff you can do with XMPP.
[08:07:29] <johnny> not sure why folks try to sell a protocol
[08:07:44] <johnny> it should just be the best way to craft the intended solution
[08:07:59] <johnny> to sales people anyways
[08:08:01] <Kev_> johnny: Selling a protocol has knock-on effects :)
[08:08:21] <johnny> no sales person i know would care..
[08:08:29] <johnny> but if i told them that last.fm used it, among others
[08:08:41] <johnny> and showed them collecta, chesspark and all that
[08:08:46] <johnny> that's when they might start caring
[08:08:53] <Guus> well, indeed - I don't want to explicitly sell the protocol, but show them what you can do with it
[08:09:05] <johnny> is there a site that shows implementation example lists?
[08:09:17] <johnny> Guus, well the last.fm guy talks about using xmpp
[08:09:27] <johnny> as do the collecta folks
[08:09:39] <johnny> and all of metajack's chesspark postings
[08:10:13] <johnny> and spectrum as gateway
[08:10:49] <johnny> i would show em all the stuff that might be related to what they want, and say that using xmpp is what made it possible for the least cost
[08:10:55] <johnny> and best implementation
[08:11:02] <johnny> which as far as i can tell.. is true
[08:12:25] <johnny> Guus, a few more examples.. altho.. they don't seem to be doing it in a perfect way
[08:12:40] <johnny> facebook's im, google talk, statusnet, disapora (iirc)
[08:13:07] <johnny> diaspora* being that it was mentioned in the new york times
[08:13:31] <Guus> johnny: exactly what I'm after, those examples. I can gather a lot of them myself (although your efforts are appreciated) - I was being lazy and wondering if such a list is precompiled, somewhere :)
[08:13:33] <johnny> Guus, plenty of big names to him em with :)
[08:13:38] <Guus> yeah, definately
[08:13:46] <jonas> onesocialweb as well
[08:13:48] <johnny> i don't know if there is such a page
[08:13:50] <Guus> it'd be nice to have some whitepapers and the like
[08:13:59] <Guus> that is exactly my question :)
[08:14:03] <johnny> hah
[08:14:25] <johnny> MattJ, is there a list of all the "big" folks using xmpp somewhere? and what they use it for?
[08:14:36] <johnny> i think Guus is right.. it should be done
[08:15:50] <Guus> I'm not sure if it SHOULD be done - but it WOULD be handy :D
[08:17:55] <johnny> well, it's a good way to sell the protocol ..
[08:18:01] <johnny> and folks are always talkin about that :)
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[08:30:57] <Guus> (we look at the mighty MattJ to coordinate such an effort, if one is going to be undertaken?)
[08:32:13] <MattJ> s/mighty//;s/coordinate/find someone to &/
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[08:35:08] <Guus> fair enough :)
[08:35:16] <Zash> the MattJ
[08:35:48] <Guus> as how he shall be known from now on...
[08:35:53] <MattJ> :/
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[08:36:13] <Zash> :)
[08:36:28] <Guus> hehe
[08:44:50] <Kev_> Restarting jorg, bbiab.
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[12:47:17] <Zash> is there a public xmpp server without tls support somewhere?
[12:47:55] <jonas> facebook
[12:48:07] <Zash> :)
[12:48:28] <petermount> :-) although I stopped using it a while back ;-)
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[17:42:09] <yagiza> Hello!
[17:43:27] <Kev> Hello.
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[17:44:18] <yagiza> /me is reading XEP-0084 and XEP-0153 now..
[17:44:32] <yagiza> /me wonders
[17:45:13] <Kev> Yes, 84 is the Right Thing to implement. Yes, you'll need 153 as well if you actually want to interop with anything.
[17:45:43] <yagiza> No
[17:45:51] <yagiza> /me wonders why
[17:46:52] <yagiza> Why XEP-0084 allows to publish URL to the avatar image, and XEP-0153 do not?
[17:47:10] <Kev> Because 153 is for vCard-Based Avatars.
[17:47:25] <yagiza> Yes. So, what?
[17:47:41] <Zash> vCard iself allows URLs as photo
[17:47:41] <Kev> If you're storing your avatar in a vcard, why do you want a URL?
[17:48:35] <yagiza> 'Cause I can store and URI to avatar in the vCard.
[17:49:18] <yagiza> But XEP-0153 says: "The <PHOTO/> element SHOULD NOT contain an <EXTVAL/> that points to a URI for the image file."
[17:49:25] <yagiza> So, I wonder why?
[17:49:37] <Kev> Because that's what people were doing.
[17:49:53] <Kev> Note that this is a Historical XEP, not Standards-Track.
[17:50:11] <Kev> So it's documenting what people do, not suggesting what people *should* do.
[17:50:47] <yagiza> IC
[17:52:23] <yagiza> Noone used <EXTVAL/> when used vcard-temp:x:update, so XEP-0153 says that it SHOULD NOT be used, right?
[17:53:04] <Kev> Pretty much, I expect.
[17:53:27] <yagiza> Ok
[17:54:05] <yagiza> Another thing
[17:54:12] <yagiza> What means "Deferred"?
[17:54:37] <Kev> It means it was accepted as Experimental, but it hasn't been advanced to Draft yet, and hasn't been updated in 12 months.
[17:54:48] <yagiza> Ok
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[17:55:00] <Kev> This is described in [xep 1]
[17:55:01] <Kanchil> Kev: XEP-0001: XMPP Extension Protocols is Procedural (Active, 2008-01-23) See: http://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0001.html
[17:55:20] <yagiza> Kanchil, ah! IC!
[17:55:25] <yagiza> Thanx!
[17:56:39] <yagiza> /me found out that pyICQt supports both XEP-0153 (which is Historical) and XEP-0008 (which is Deferred), but do not support XEP-0084!
[17:56:57] <Zash> !xep 8
[17:56:57] <Kanchil> Zash: XEP-0008: IQ-Based Avatars is Historical (Deferred, 2006-04-24) See: http://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0008.html
[17:57:02] <Kev> Blimey, [xep 8] is deferred?
[17:57:03] <Kanchil> Kev: XEP-0008: IQ-Based Avatars is Historical (Deferred, 2006-04-24) See: http://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0008.html
[17:57:23] <Kev> That should probably be retracted.
[17:57:47] <yagiza> /me thinks about supporthig all of them...
[17:57:58] <Kev> I don't think there's any point you supporting XEP-0008.
[17:58:06] <Kev> Although it's up to you :)
[17:58:19] <Kev> Both 84 and 153 are worth supporting, though.
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[18:02:36] <yagiza> /me understood why XEP-0008 is not recommended to be implemented. But he cannot understand why sending an Avatar data directly from client to client is preferred method in the XEP!
[18:03:11] <Kev> Nothing about XEP-0008 is good :)
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[18:03:55] <yagiza> Ok
[18:04:19] <Kev> It was only the 8th ever XEP ;)
[18:04:35] <yagiza> (^_^)
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[18:12:26] <alkino> I find an idea about a new xep :$
[18:13:27] <alkino> concerning jingle
[18:13:47] <alkino> XEP-0166: However, in all cases if the 'initiator' and 'from' values differ then the responder MUST NOT interact with the 'initiator' JID unless it trusts the 'initiator' JID or trusts that the 'from' JID is allowed to authorize the 'initiator' JID to act on the 'from' JID's behalf.
[18:14:10] <alkino> How can we know that a JID trust an other JID :s
[18:17:12] <Zash> In your roster?
[18:18:59] <alkino> and if i'm friend with 2 ennemies ? :$
[18:19:08] <Zash> or a "I trust this user" checkbox?
[18:19:36] <Zash> /me guesses it's up to client devs
[18:20:09] <alkino> how can we know ?
[18:20:57] <alkino> y say : "I'm working for x"
[18:21:03] <alkino> unless x say y can work for me
[18:21:09] <alkino> we cannot know
[18:21:19] <alkino> it's not because I think y is sage
[18:21:21] <alkino> safe*
[18:21:24] <alkino> than x think taht ;)
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[19:30:24] <Alex> is is correct for a server to allow reistration but not advertise it in the stream features?
[19:31:04] <Kev> It's not strictly illegal, but I can't see a reason to do it.
[19:31:10] <Kev> Unless you advertise it, no-one can use it.
[19:31:10] <Alex> when its not advertised then I don't allow regstration and throw an exception. Pidgin tries to register anyway
[19:31:43] <Alex> Kev: I am with you and fighting with a user at the moment ;-)
[19:31:52] <Kev> I'm checking what 77 says.
[19:32:01] <Alex> its sais MAY
[19:32:09] <Kev> May advertise?
[19:32:26] <Alex> yes
[19:32:34] <Alex> looking up the exact working
[19:32:39] <Alex> wording
[19:33:08] <Alex> a server returns a stream header to the client and MAY announce support for in-band registration
[19:33:28] <Alex> If the host does not support In-Band Registration, it MUST return a <service-unavailable/> error. If the host is redirecting registration requests to some other medium (e.g., a website), it MAY return an <instructions/> element only, as shown in the Redirection <http://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0077.html#redirect> section of this document.
[19:33:45] <Kev> Well, that's pretty unclear.
[19:33:57] <Kev> I suspect it means you MAY announce it, because you don't need to support it.
[19:34:09] <Alex> yes, we should add there that the stream feature is required when registration is enabled
[19:34:15] <Kev> But you could read it as MAY announce it, but you can support it without reporting it.
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[19:34:33] <Alex> ya
[19:35:53] <^WMattJ> I disagree
[19:35:58] <^WMattJ> "For the sake of efficiency, it may be desirable for a server to advertise support for in-band registration as a stream feature."
[19:36:18] <Kev> Blimey.
[19:36:19] <^WMattJ> I believe MAY fits with this
[19:36:23] <Kev> So the second reading is correct.
[19:36:27] <Kev> I think that's horrible.
[19:39:05] <^WMattJ> Alex, which server is this? :)
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[19:39:29] <Alex> neko.im
[19:40:05] <^WMattJ> Suspected so :)
[19:40:10] <Alex> running a software called Prosody ;-)
[19:40:22] <^WMattJ> Prosody advertises it as a disco feature it seems
[19:40:37] <^WMattJ> Which isn't specified in the XEP, I suspect that's a mistake
[19:40:47] <^WMattJ> brb, doorbell
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[20:11:44] <Guus> Matt, did you give any thought on the stuff that we talked on this morning?
[20:11:59] <Guus> Any idea how we should get something like that going?
[20:12:26] <Guus> (the less-techy-more-salesy xmpp feature slash usage thingy)
[20:13:43] <Kev> You speak to Nÿco, who heads the commteam.
[20:13:43] <johnny> a page on the wiki
[20:13:46] <johnny> ah..
[20:13:49] <johnny> commteam
[20:14:04] <Kev> And volunteer to help with it :)
[20:16:51] <Guus> Error joining chat commteam@muc.xmpp.org/guus
[20:17:03] <Guus> ah, nevermind
[20:17:09] <Guus> pidgin acting up
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[23:08:43] <^WMattJ> .
[23:09:16] <^WMattJ> Yeah, XEP-0077 needs cleaning up - the registrar has a feature 'jabber:iq:register' that isn't specified in the XEP
[23:09:26] <^WMattJ> disco feature, that is
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[01:45:47] <arc@hacdc.org> does anyone know how to view/edit/admin registered users on prosody?
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