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[08:10:29] <Hermitifier> Hello. How significant is order of child elements within <stream:features> offered by server ?
[08:10:41] <MattJ> It isn't
[08:10:55] <MattJ> The order of mechanisms in the SASL element is, though, I think
[08:13:04] <Hermitifier> Ok, thanks. I knew about SASL, that's why I wondered about features in general.
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[08:14:37] <Hermitifier> There is one particular client which tries to establish a session and bind a resource - at once, but in that order.
[08:17:59] <Hermitifier> And it does seem to be triggered by features order - client bug then.
[08:18:24] <MattJ> Heh
[08:18:44] <Kev> If it's anything other than Swift, it's a horrible client bug. If it's Swift, it's valid.
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[08:21:02] <Hermitifier> The whole client is horribly bugged, as if author looked at psi console instead of reading rfc and xeps.
[08:21:11] <Kev> Heh.
[08:21:20] <Kev> Clients like that do exist, yes.
[08:21:21] <Hermitifier> What makes Swift so special ? :P
[08:21:33] <Kev> It's what I've been working on since Psi.
[08:22:42] <Hermitifier> Oh :) I've never used it, anyway.
[08:22:43] <johnny> swift isn't quite ready for me yet..
[08:22:49] <johnny> Hermitifier, it's only just in beta recently
[08:23:02] <Kev> johnny: Maybe it never will be :)
[08:23:12] <johnny> Kev, perhaps
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[08:23:22] <Kev> It's my main client, but I do keep Psi around as a backup client for ad-hoc and MUC admin.
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[10:12:44] <MattJ> I don't get Jingle
[10:13:13] <petermount> not had chance to try it myself...
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[10:13:17] <MattJ> the {content,transport}-{add,remove,modify} commands in particular
[10:14:04] <MattJ> There is only one transport negotiated afaik, I'm not sure how you can "add" content to an existing session
[10:14:19] <MattJ> But maybe that's not what it's for, it seems under-specified, or I'm not looking in the right place
[10:15:55] <MattJ> Section 6.4... missing examples (or indeed any protocol-specific text)
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[10:27:37] <MattJ> "Romeo, being an amorous young man, requests to add video to the audio chat."
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[10:28:36] <MattJ> "However, Juliet is having a bad hair day, so she sends a content-modify message to Romeo that sets the senders to "initiator" (she doesn't mind receiving video but she doesn't want to send video)."
[10:28:41] <MattJ> Finally, they make sense to me :)
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[11:46:36] <MattJ> I can only assume the spec is very incomplete :/
[11:46:48] <MattJ> I'm having to make this up as I go along
[11:46:58] <MattJ> Perhaps because I'm trying to implement it without audio/video
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[14:23:20] <dmex> Ive found a bug with jabber.org's software MLink, When creating an 'Instant Room' jabber.org's server doesnt send the participants Jids to the room owner, the only case it shoudnt send the jid is if the room is anonymous but it never sends the status code of 100
[14:24:54] <dmex> the full jid should be included with the presence reguardless if the room is registered per the spec unless its a anon room which it doesnt identify
[14:25:19] <deryni> If the room is anonymous you wouldn't get a 100 status code.
[14:26:00] <deryni> Even if the room is semi-anonymous you don't get a 100 code.
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[14:26:44] <dmex> it should still send the jids
[14:27:41] <deryni> Assuming the default configuration is semi-anonymous or non-anonymous, yes.
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[14:29:04] <deryni> But the default appears to be fully anonymous.
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[14:31:29] <dmex> should sending a disco info query show the rooms configuration?
[14:31:59] <deryni> http://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0045.html#roomconfig
[14:32:19] <dmex> I was just reading it ;p
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[14:34:00] <dmex> the problem is how would you ban a user from an anon room?
[14:34:27] <dmex> even the owner doesnt get the full jid
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[14:34:38] <deryni> There are a number of reasons the spec says fully-anonymous rooms are NOT RECOMMENDED.
[14:34:53] <deryni> I didn't know anyone supported them until now.
[14:35:48] <deryni> Whether supporting it is reasonable or not aside, it probably shouldn't be the default without a really good reason.
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[14:38:04] <dmex> so would mlink or jabber.org need to change the defaults?
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[14:38:30] <dmex> you can kick a nickname but any default room here you cant ban
[14:38:32] <deryni> Depends on if that an option m-link gives the admins or not, and I don't know.
[14:38:40] <deryni> Kev: ping
[14:39:00] <Kev> I don't believe it's configurable.
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[14:40:40] <dmex> there needs to be a way of banning via nickname
[14:40:54] <deryni> Wouldn't do you any good.
[14:40:58] <Kev> That seems like a fairly silly idea.
[14:41:00] <deryni> They'd just pick a new one.
[14:41:03] <Kev> Right.
[14:41:47] <dmex> If I added the option to ban a user and they tried banning a user in a default room, their not banned, the user would expect otherwise
[14:42:33] <deryni> So don't give them the option in a fully-anonymous room and/or give them an error if they try it. You can't actually send a stanza for it so you'll figure it out at some point.
[14:42:34] <dmex> prosody's default config for rooms is different
[14:42:38] <Zash> I guess you could do some magick where the room (who knows the real jid) translates the nick into the real jid and bans it
[14:42:40] <Zash> but
[14:42:48] <Zash> ugly hack?
[14:42:54] <Kev> Zash: race condition-tastic!
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[14:43:10] <Zash> \o/
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[14:43:25] <MattJ> iirc there are MUC operations which operate on nicks
[14:43:34] <deryni> Kicking.
[14:43:35] <MattJ> But not for affiliations, obviously
[14:43:36] <Kev> Yes, kick.
[14:44:53] <dmex> kick is not ideal if their persistent
[14:46:15] <MattJ> You mean if the kicked user is persistent?
[14:46:31] <dmex> yep
[14:46:33] <MattJ> If they're persistent they'll likely rejoin with nick_
[14:46:36] <MattJ> and then nick__
[14:46:41] <MattJ> and then you_are_stupid
[14:46:44] <dmex> lol
[14:46:57] <MattJ> Experience tells me so ;)
[14:47:07] <dmex> irc for one
[14:47:08] <deryni> And that's if they are polite.
[14:47:13] <MattJ> Quite
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[14:48:47] <jonas> off topic: does prosody has spam protection of some kind?
[14:49:14] <jonas> or abuse protection
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[14:49:35] <MattJ> Not in the current releases
[14:49:45] <Kev> Yes, it offers kick and ban :)
[14:49:46] <MattJ> It'll be a plugin when it is
[14:49:47] <jonas> any interesting plans?
[14:49:51] <MattJ> Plenty :)
[14:50:04] <jonas> whats the ideas?
[14:50:25] <MattJ> As with anything we do, we like to do it properly - unfortunately doing this kind of thing properly requires crossing all sorts of layers
[14:50:26] <jonas> like avoid mass registration and things like that?
[14:50:46] <MattJ> which is why we've focused on just making sure we have the correct extension points to allow it
[14:50:55] <MattJ> Oh, registration is throttled per IP already
[14:51:05] <MattJ> I assumed you meant like MUC flooding, etc.
[14:51:15] <jonas> yes that too, or not just muc related
[14:52:16] <MattJ> Registration has a configurable timeout per IP, and registered clients can be limited to a certain number of resources, that kind of thing
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[14:53:14] <dmex> this there a x limit registrations per second?
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[14:54:04] <MattJ> dmex, more, 1 registration per X seconds
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[14:54:52] <MattJ> http://prosody.im/doc/modules/mod_register
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[14:55:40] <dmex> min_seconds_between_registrations
[14:56:27] <dmex> botnets could get around that
[14:57:35] <MattJ> Yep
[14:58:08] <jonas> we had some problems on that.. thousands of accounts called [very large number][three latin chars] that were never logged in to
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[14:58:36] <Kev> jonas: Yes, there have been assorted botnet-like things abusing servers that allow unprotected IBR.
[14:58:56] <MattJ> That's when you use Prosody's mod_register_url, which tells the clients a URL at which they can point the user to create an account
[14:59:03] <MattJ> and with that form you have a CAPTCHA, etc.
[14:59:27] <MattJ> Though as clients start to support CAPTCHA we can start moving stuff like that in-band again
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[15:00:23] <deryni> That reminds me of something I've wondered. Most servers, to my knowledge, time out half-completed registrations rather quickly, how do captchas play with that?
[15:01:10] <jonas> i guess the implementation should be changed to allow some "thinking" time
[15:01:12] <MattJ> deryni, do they need to time out half-registrations?
[15:01:19] <MattJ> Is there such a thing?
[15:01:33] <Kev> MattJ: There's timing out unauthenticated streams.
[15:01:42] <deryni> Right, I meant killing the stream.
[15:01:46] <Kev> Of which incomplete registrations are a subset.
[15:01:56] <MattJ> Right, Prosody doesn't do that by default for c2s
[15:02:17] <MattJ> It times out unauthed s2s after 60s, but c2s it leaves up to the admin to decide
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[15:38:43] <Zash> s,www.jabber.org/jeps/jep-,xmpp.org/extensions/xep-, in the xeps inbox?
[15:40:31] <MattJ> Where?
[15:41:27] <Kev> Zash if they're there as JEPs, it's because they were submitted before XEPs existed.
[15:41:57] <Zash> MattJ: I clicked on http://xmpp.org/extensions/inbox/timeperiod.html
[15:42:01] <MattJ> Ah
[15:42:04] <MattJ> The redirects
[15:42:43] <Zash> Unless the s/J/X/ change renumberd them, it should be easy
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[19:03:26] <Zash> Is there any reason at all that adding a hostname that resolves to a internal IP reachable from VPN only would cause bad things?
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[19:04:51] <Kev> Adding a hostname where to what?
[19:05:13] <Zash> SRV record that points to a servers internal IP
[19:05:24] <Zash> Which is reachable by VPN
[19:05:50] <Kev> For xmpp-client? xmpp-server?
[19:05:54] <Zash> client
[19:06:28] <Kev> I don't remember if SRV records are allowed to point directly at an IP - someone else probably will.
[19:06:39] <Kev> But no, no reason that should cause problems.
[19:06:49] <Kev> Split-horizon DNS, on the other hand, causes issues for some clients.
[19:06:51] <Zash> rrr
[19:07:53] <Zash> 2 SRV records, one points to vpn.example.com and resolves to 10.something, and one that resolves to the public xmpp server
[19:07:55] <MattJ> SRV records can only point to A records
[19:08:11] <MattJ> Right, should work
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[19:08:33] <Zash> Clients without VPN should just fail and try the public name/ip right
[19:08:34] <Kev> Apart from clients with DNS-related bugs, that shuldwork.
[19:08:48] <Kev> But there are multiple clients with amusing bugs in that space.
[19:08:52] <Zash> :)
[19:10:11] <Zash> Whatthehell?
[19:10:23] <Zash> Type, TTL, Prio, Data
[19:11:42] <Zash> !xmpp-core
[19:12:01] <MattJ> Zash, http://prosody.im/doc/dns if it helps
[19:12:53] <Zash> /me wonders why Loopia has a separate Prio field
[19:13:37] <Zash> /me guesses it's only used for MX
[19:14:10] <Kev> SRV uses both priority and weight.
[19:14:26] <Zash> Kev: But that's in the Data field
[19:14:37] <Kev> Right.
[19:16:50] <Zash> `dig srv _xmpp-client._tcp.zash.se @ns1.loopia.se.`
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[19:24:28] <Zash> NICE
[19:24:40] <Zash> tcp 0 0 10.65.0.1:5222 10.65.100.6:46763 ESTABLISHED 28590/lua
[19:24:45] <Zash> \o/
[19:27:09] <MattJ> Zash, did you find what format to put in the "Data" field? (I'll guess... yes)
[19:28:08] <Zash> MattJ: Same as the previous with decreased priority
[19:28:36] <Zash> MattJ: Double encryption!
[19:29:25] <Kev> Yes, we used this encryption thing called ROT13, and for added security we applied it twice.
[19:30:27] <Zash> Whoa, are you discussing state secrets or what would warrant such heavy security?
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