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[19:29:11] <loxs> hi
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[19:29:38] <MattJ> Hi :)
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[19:31:05] <loxs> Are the "components" what I need to investigate in order to achieve things like create/destroy large numbers of rooms, and also put users there forcefully to them. I don't seem to be able to find some good guide on doing things like this. Could anyone point me to such?
[19:34:56] <zanchin> loxs, maybe
[19:35:19] <zanchin> if you give special permissions to your components (or another 'admin') user, you can probably accomplish what you want
[19:35:47] <loxs> zanchin: with "maybe" you mean that there is a better way to do it?
[19:35:49] <zanchin> but you might also want to look into ejabberd internal components and APIs
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[19:36:11] <MattJ> You can't force a user into a room
[19:36:35] <loxs> in no way?
[19:36:43] <loxs> is it against the protocol?
[19:36:51] <zanchin> I don't know much about ejabberd, but I know that you can perform administrative actions that aren't covered by XMPP specs
[19:37:02] <MattJ> Without client support there is no way
[19:37:10] <MattJ> With a modified client it's certainly possible
[19:37:17] <deryni> You can force them to get room presence/messages, but that's not quite the same thing.
[19:37:22] <loxs> MattJ: actually I am going to write my own client, probably with strophejs.
[19:37:34] <MattJ> Then of course it's possible
[19:37:50] <MattJ> deryni, how does Pidgin handle that? :)
[19:37:52] <zanchin> or you can get your clients to auto-accept MUC invites. This is what we do
[19:38:06] <deryni> I have no idea how most clients would handle it.
[19:38:08] <deryni> =)
[19:38:13] <MattJ> deryni, last time I saw it happen was when I was using Miranda... I had the room as a contact with 30 odd resources
[19:38:26] <MattJ> and message dialogs opening up left, right and centre
[19:38:37] <deryni> A "smart" client could probably make it work right, I think.
[19:38:37] <loxs> OK, then it's best that I describe what I'm planning to do, and then if you like, you could give me some advice on where to read and what to do.
[19:39:07] <zanchin> MattJ, but MUC presence stanzas have their on <x> namespace
[19:39:34] <zanchin> so clients can be smart about it
[19:39:46] <deryni> If they wanted to inspect every incoming presence and message stanza, yes.
[19:39:55] <MattJ> Yes, I tried that
[19:39:57] <MattJ> in Miranda
[19:40:13] <MattJ> I got halfway - but then you had issues like the client didn't actually know what its own nickname was
[19:41:25] <zanchin> true, you would need the server to send clients their initial presence with the correct status code
[19:41:51] <deryni> It is the last presence stanza before history starts, so you can technically do without that also.
[19:42:03] <deryni> Assuming the server does things right.
[19:42:29] <MattJ> Well in my case the client was missing the history - the server thought it never left
[19:42:33] <MattJ> but still sent it messages
[19:42:54] <MattJ> A case that in theory shouldn't happen, but sometimes can (XEP-0198 everybody!)
[19:43:21] <deryni> Why couldn't it happen? The client never sends presence to the room so the server could easily not clean it up.
[19:43:38] <deryni> The server would need to synthesize the unavailable the same way it did the available presence.
[19:44:12] <loxs> It's going to be a game. The world is organized in "rooms" (quite like a MUD). Every room is actually a Jabber room, so that who comes there is able to chat with the others present at the location. Also, there will be things like clans, parties (jabber rooms again) etc. Players must not be able to choose which room they are in, except by game controls. We will write our own client (as game client<>server communication will be xmpp too). That client will be both for player chat and for the game itself. At first we started building it with comet technoligies, but for a while I've been investigating XMPP and it certainly has lots of appealing features. So what do you think, is XMPP the right tool for such a thing.
[19:44:24] <deryni> Not doing so would be a server bug of course, but we are already well into the realm of "odd".
[19:44:47] <MattJ> deryni, I'm assuming a compliant server - I don't know any server that doesn't send that presence
[19:45:00] <MattJ> Usually it's s2s troubles that get it lost
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[19:45:38] <deryni> MattJ: My point is the available presence to the room never comes from the client and so a simple server could easily synthesize the available and never put it into the "needs broadcast presence routed" list for the resource.
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[19:48:08] <zanchin> our solution to this is as follows: we have member-only rooms which are configured to send invites when a new member is added
[19:48:20] <MattJ> loxs, when I made something similar I decided to keep a single room as the entry point and have server make the occupants join/leave as necessary (essentially a virtual MUC)
[19:48:30] <zanchin> clients auto-join rooms that they get invited to
[19:48:51] <evilotto> loxs: if it's like a mud, then why not just built it on top of a mud engine?
[19:48:55] <MattJ> loxs, but then my goal was making it work with any XMPP client, so I didn't have much choice
[19:49:53] <loxs> evilotto: because it's going to be web, and mud servers don't seem to have things like BOSH
[19:50:20] <zanchin> or the client can use disco to get a list of rooms available at each location and join those rooms automatically
[19:50:41] <deryni> Yeah, with a custom client I'm not sure why the server needs to do anything fancy for this sort of thing.
[19:51:32] <evilotto> loxs: sure they doo, check out http://connect.moo.ca/ for example
[19:51:45] <loxs> well, the server needs to be able to revoke access to rooms where the player is not present (and that's written in my database)
[19:52:13] <deryni> Right, but that's unrelated to the client joining and leaving rooms when it needs to "move".
[19:52:15] <Kev> (jumping in midway, sorry.)
[19:52:25] <Kev> Could you store that information in the MUC service itself, instead of your DB?
[19:52:40] <Kev> That way you avoid the replication.
[19:53:20] <loxs> evilotto: thanks for the link, I'll have a look. Still I want my players to be able to communicate with their guilds while not being connected to the game itself. So XMPP is still the best candidate
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[19:53:41] <deryni> We are assuming a custom muc service, right?
[19:54:21] <Kev> loxs: there are two books that will probably be useful for you - one on XMPP, and one on Strope - if you haven't yet read them.
[19:54:30] <zanchin> loxs, if you would like, I have a soon to be released muc plugin for strophejs that I can send you
[19:55:26] <loxs> Kev: I'm not sure what you are talking about (because I'm a XMPP newbie), but I'd like to store all the information in CouchDb if possible, so instead of storing info inside ejabberd, I'd like to move it out. Also, there will be lots of data transported between the server and the client without involving XMPP at all. Things like player profiles (when you meet them), images etc.
[19:56:06] <loxs> Kev: I already ordered both of them, so I'll be reading them soon
[19:56:33] <Kev> loxs: I personally think you're likely to make life easiest for yourself if you use XMPP as your database using pubsub and MUC. I may be wrong, but it's my feeling.
[19:56:40] <Kev> Excellent - I hope you enjoy TDG.
[19:56:57] <Kev> (Well, I hope you enjoy Strophe, too, but you know :))
[19:57:11] <loxs> I'm almost certain to use strophe for the client
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[19:59:38] <loxs> Kev: as we talked (maybe in another channel), I certainly prefer CouchDB over Mnesia. 1. because I am already familiar with it and 2. because it's (much) better suited for the rest of the game. I need XMPP only for the "realtime" bits. And if XMPP is not suitable for making the game itself realtime, then I'll go with Comet, and use XMPP only for player chat (which will be an essential part of the game too)
[20:00:07] <johnny> yo ucan expose the player profile via vcards to xmpp loxs ..
[20:00:23] <johnny> it is recommened to go the the route of pubsub for subscribing to groups of information tho
[20:00:26] <johnny> like a stats feed
[20:01:04] <loxs> johnny: well, I'm not absolutely sure that I can use map/reduce (like in CouchDB) to query the vcards database. And other fancy stuff that's inside CouchDB
[20:01:43] <johnny> it's possible to make it happen
[20:02:40] <loxs> I'd rather prefer to use XMPP to *only* relay messages and not involve it in game logic
[20:02:47] <Kev> loxs: yes, I wouldn't trust it to mnesia.
[20:03:11] <Kev> I don't see any reason for not using XMPP for all your message routing.
[20:03:54] <loxs> yeah, ideally, if there arent any "artificial" hindrances, XMPP would be great to save me brandwidth etc.
[20:04:18] <Kev> Depending on your game model, pubsub could play a large part in this.
[20:04:37] <Kev> But you'll get lots of fun examples of that in TDG (and possible Strope-book, I've not read it).
[20:05:02] <loxs> I'll for sure read them both in the days to come.
[20:05:35] <zanchin> ^^ I agree with johnny and Kev on using pubsub
[20:05:54] <Kev> If you like the chapter, it's one of mine, if you don't then it was Peter or Remko ):
[20:05:55] <Kev> :)
[20:06:16] <deryni> What does using pubsub here gain exactly? I think I must have missed something. Or have we moved beyond the room<->room mapping/navigation issue?
[20:06:34] <loxs> now I'm trying to figure out is it possible to do it without writing Erlang (as we don't know it). Is it possible to use a "component" that is written in python or node.js. (and sorry for not talking about pubsub, I have no idea what it is. I'll go read about it)
[20:06:36] <Kev> deryni: I thought we were talking about generic 'shifting data about' in-game.
[20:06:50] <Kev> loxs: yes, you can write components in whatever you want.
[20:06:57] <Kev> You can also write bots in whatever you want.
[20:07:18] <Kev> Where bots and components (for many use cases) and equally applicable.
[20:07:25] <zanchin> !xep-0060
[20:07:41] <johnny> !xep 60
[20:07:42] <xepbot> XEP-0060: Publish-Subscribe is Standards Track (Draft, 2008-09-03) See: http://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0060.html
[20:07:55] <Kev> zanchin: I'm sure loxs will understand pubsub once he(?)'s read the books.
[20:08:08] <Kev> And will probably decide that he doesn't need it, and wonders what we were all going on about :)
[20:08:09] <zanchin> yes, the books are great
[20:08:09] <johnny> zanchin, or !xep publish would workas well
[20:08:20] <johnny> /me pokes Kev
[20:08:26] <Kev> Hmm?
[20:08:41] <johnny> of course he needs it!
[20:08:51] <johnny> hah
[20:11:03] <evilotto> !xep 11
[20:11:03] <xepbot> XEP-0011: Jabber Browsing is Historical (Obsolete, 2009-06-03) See: http://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0011.html
[20:11:48] <loxs> Kev are you the author of sleekxmpp?
[20:12:27] <Kev> No, although I did most of sleekbot.
[20:12:38] <Kev> There's a bit of my code in sleekxmpp, but not much.
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[20:13:32] <Kev> Why do you ask?
[20:13:33] <loxs> then you are the author of something else I came across recently
[20:13:48] <loxs> (aside the book)
[20:14:05] <Kev> Psi? Swift? SleekBot? SleekMigrate?
[20:14:53] <Kev> (With varying degrees of authorness)
[20:14:53] <loxs> hmm, then we are not talking abou the same Kevin. It's something server side, python library
[20:15:11] <loxs> but which
[20:15:22] <loxs> I am trying to find "the best" way to write components :)
[20:15:37] <loxs> twisted, node.js, maybe something else in some similar language
[20:15:57] <loxs> and I have come across lots of different projects
[20:16:24] <Kev> I don't know of any other Kev's involved with XMPP - but that doesn't mean there aren't any.
[20:16:45] <loxs> probably my memories are totally wrong then :)
[20:18:01] <johnny> fritzy ?
[20:18:04] <loxs> do you, guys, know the author of ejabberd-couchdb http://github.com/twonds/ejabberd_couchdb
[20:18:12] <Kev> johnny: Fritzy isn't a Kev :)
[20:18:17] <johnny> truly
[20:18:26] <johnny> well actually i don't really know that
[20:18:39] <johnny> were you at oscon in 2008?
[20:18:46] <Kev> No.
[20:18:48] <johnny> if it.. i don't actually know that to be the case
[20:18:50] <loxs> or anyone else around here who has done XMPP stuff with CouchDB?
[20:18:51] <johnny> if not*
[20:19:03] <Kev> loxs: I haven't.
[20:19:06] <johnny> loxs, he was one of the folks behind collecta i think.. he works with metajack
[20:19:10] <MattJ> /me still thinks someone should sponsor the council to go to the summit at OSCON this year :)
[20:19:12] <johnny> aka jack moffit
[20:19:32] <loxs> do they hang around here?
[20:19:37] <johnny> too busy to hang around here
[20:19:43] <MattJ> loxs, yes, that's tofu
[20:19:49] <MattJ> over there -->
[20:19:51] <johnny> oh.. he is here
[20:19:54] <johnny> oops
[20:20:03] <johnny> sorry mattj.. i apologize :(
[20:20:13] <loxs> ah, great
[20:20:14] <johnny> it's just metajack that is too busy for us anymore then
[20:20:27] <MattJ> johnny, don't, I *still* get him mixed up with his brother :)
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[20:21:25] <johnny> MattJ, i agree.. make cisco pick up the tab
[20:21:42] <johnny> MattJ, some of the council will be there..
[20:21:45] <MattJ> I doubt it would be Cisco :)
[20:21:49] <johnny> you just mean the entire coucil :)
[20:22:01] <MattJ> johnny, which some of the council do you know are going?
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[20:22:10] <Kev> Nathan is, isn't he?
[20:22:12] * waqas joined the chat.
[20:22:14] <johnny> hmm? /me was assuming stpeter was on the council?
[20:22:18] <Kev> Nope.
[20:22:21] <johnny> oh .. wait
[20:22:23] <johnny> how behind am i
[20:22:23] <MattJ> Ah of course
[20:22:25] <johnny> really behind
[20:22:35] <johnny> i should pay more attention to this..
[20:22:44] <johnny> how many years am i wrong on that?
[20:22:48] <johnny> 7?
[20:22:57] <Kev> No, only two.
[20:23:01] <johnny> oh ok :)
[20:23:03] <Kev> Or one even?
[20:23:05] <Kev> I forget.
[20:23:07] <MattJ> 1 I thought
[20:23:11] <MattJ> But I could be wrong
[20:23:13] <johnny> ok.. so i'm not too dumb then
[20:23:18] <johnny> i was at the summit in 2008
[20:23:32] <johnny> but when it moved to san jose.. it wasn't worth going
[20:23:41] <johnny> i had no other reason to go there.. while i have plenty of reasons to go to portland
[20:24:19] <johnny> as a only a small participant in the community.. it was certainly not justifiable
[20:24:48] <Kev> I haven't been able to justify OSCON yet.
[20:25:02] <johnny> oh.. i didn't justify oscon at all.. i just went to the exhibit hall
[20:25:07] <johnny> the "free" part
[20:25:19] <Kev> Well, that's quite the way for me to go, too.
[20:25:31] <Kev> FOSDEM's plenty far enough :)
[20:26:25] <johnny> Kev, in 2008 i went from NYC ->DC -> Chicago -> Austin , TX -> Chicago -> Seattle -> Portland on the train .. stayed in austin for 4 days to work with a a colleague, seattle for 2 days with my gf who was out there for a conference, and the summit and ltsp hackfest in portland
[20:27:03] <johnny> i think i ispent about $1000 USD at the time..
[20:27:56] <johnny> $600 for the train ($75 for later route changes), and the rest for food / and stuff
[20:28:13] <johnny> pretty good deal.. $600 to see the whole country within a 30 day time period :)
[20:28:22] <Kev> Heh. That's one way of looking at it.
[20:28:31] <johnny> it was almost 10K miles
[20:28:43] <Kev> Portland's more than that for me :){
[20:28:53] <Kev> s/{//
[20:29:30] <johnny> how many miles is the flight path between say.. london and NYC?
[20:29:44] <johnny> is it really 7000?
[20:29:52] <johnny> that seems kinda large. :)
[20:29:56] <Kev> I think London->Florida is 5000ish
[20:30:12] <johnny> straight across the country is less than 2000
[20:30:16] <loxs> Thanks for being so kind, folks. I'm going to bed now.
[20:30:17] <johnny> from nyc to portland
[20:30:20] <evilotto> !xep file
[20:30:20] <xepbot> Multiple matches: XEP-0214: File Repository and Sharing, XEP-0264: File Transfer Thumbnails, XEP-0234: Jingle File Transfer, XEP-0096: File Transfer, XEP-0154: User Profile, XEP-0052: File Transfer, XEP-0226: Message Stanza Profiles, XEP-0006: Profiles JIG, XEP-0129: WebDAV File Transfers, XEP-0082: XMPP Date and Time Profiles, XEP-0105: Tree Transfer Stream Initiation Profile, XEP-0135: File Sharing
[20:30:22] <Kev> loxs: gn.
[20:30:45] <johnny> /me realizes the dishes aren't going to wash themselves
[20:30:47] <evilotto> !xep 214
[20:30:47] <xepbot> XEP-0214: File Repository and Sharing is Standards Track (Experimental, 2009-01-05) See: http://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0214.html
[20:30:49] <johnny> brb
[20:30:59] <loxs> bye
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[00:38:31] <Zash> !xep usrer
[00:38:31] <xepbot> No match found
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[00:38:35] <Zash> !xep user
[00:38:35] <xepbot> Multiple matches: XEP-0045: Multi-User Chat, XEP-0154: User Profile, XEP-0196: User Gaming, XEP-0112: User Physical Location, XEP-0080: User Location, XEP-0195: User Browsing, XEP-0084: User Avatar, XEP-0172: User Nickname, XEP-0197: User Viewing, XEP-0107: User Mood, XEP-0118: User Tune, XEP-0108: User Activity, XEP-0058: Multi-User Text Editing, XEP-0194: User Chatting
[00:39:27] <Zash> is it really needed with differnt spec for user {chatting,browsing,viewing}?
[00:39:44] <Zash> why not just a User URI
[00:42:49] <Zash> and use tv: (rfc2838), xmpp: and http: URIs with some meta
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