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[17:01:28] <yagiza> Hello!
[17:01:51] <MattJ> Hello!
[17:02:04] <yagiza> MattJ
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[17:12:57] <stpeter> Kev: could we perhaps have a discussion about message receipts in the next Council meeting?
[17:13:44] <stpeter> I'd like to hear if the Council is interested in updating XEP-0184 along the lines that yagiza has proposed
[17:15:14] <Kev> I'm fairly firmly of the opinion that if we're addressing two different use cases with this, we should have two XEPs.
[17:15:19] <Kev> But I'm happy to discuss that in Council.
[17:16:44] <MattJ> What/where did yagiza propose?
[17:17:57] <yagiza> /me sugested to extend XEP-0184 with <read /> case
[17:18:27] <Kev> MattJ: That we tighten up the definition of when to send a receipt - it's ambiguous at the moment in the XEP (I agree with doing this)
[17:18:41] <Kev> Then to add <read/>, which is to be sent when the client has determined that the user has read the message.
[17:18:56] <Kev> This was my belief of what 184 was always trying to solve.
[17:19:37] <MattJ> client-client acks are still wanting then
[17:19:41] <Kev> Asterix wants to change <received/> to be always sent automatically by the client the moment it receives the stanza, without user intervention, or the ability for users to turn it off.
[17:20:15] <Kev> So yagiza gets read receipts, and Asterix gets client-client acks - although I note that you still can't use the latter for automatic retransmission, as 184 currently describes.
[17:20:49] <MattJ> Agreed
[17:20:49] <Kev> I don't believe those two things, similar as they are, belong in the same XEP, though.
[17:21:02] <Asterix> sure I was not talking about automatic retransmission of themessage, just automatic sending of the <received/>
[17:21:48] <MattJ> Indeed, I see no reason that it need be the same XEP - however most (all?) implementations of 184 currently send the ack on reception, and not on presentation iirc
[17:22:18] <MattJ> and here I am calling it an ack instead of a receipt, it's easy to do :)
[17:22:18] <yagiza> /me thinks that client software should react alike on both events. So, he thinks that <read /> should extend XEP-0184
[17:22:29] <Kev> MattJ: Right, which means making <read/> a new one, and adjusting <received/>
[17:22:49] <Kev> yagiza: what benefit is there in adding both to the same XEP?
[17:23:14] <yagiza> Similar behaviour of the client software
[17:23:20] <yagiza> For example:
[17:23:43] <Kev> That's not an advantage.
[17:23:53] <Kev> Is it?
[17:24:11] <Kev> Nothing is easier if it's all one XEP, nor less confusing.
[17:24:40] <yagiza> Ok
[17:24:56] <Kev> If they're separate XEPs it's easier to be clear what the purpose of each is, with their separate business rules, and allows you to implement either easily.
[17:25:21] <yagiza> We don't have to produse new entities for similar functionality
[17:25:32] <yagiza> 1. No new XEP
[17:25:40] <Kev> Who are 'we' and what are 'entities' in this case?
[17:25:46] <yagiza> 2. No new namespace
[17:26:12] <yagiza> In this case "enitities" are "XEPs"
[17:26:27] <yagiza> and "namespaces"
[17:27:35] <yagiza> XEP with such restricted functionality looks too primitive. Why not extend it?
[17:28:13] <Kev> I think it's the view of all of Council that short XEPs are better than long XEPs, and extending XEPs makes them more irritating to deal with.
[17:28:35] <Kev> At least - they just slapped a warning on the Message Archiving XEP saying it's too complex and needs to be simplified before it'll go to Final.
[17:29:33] <yagiza> Ok. But even in that case XEP-0184 is TOO simple, IMHO
[17:29:47] <yagiza> And
[17:30:30] <yagiza> Adding 1 more element won't make it much more complex, but will make it more functional.
[17:30:48] <MattJ> It depends what you mean by "simple" - it has one goal, and it achieves it
[17:30:54] <Kev> These are similar, but substantially different uses, though.
[17:30:59] <MattJ> You have another goal
[17:31:12] <Kev> Merging them makes it one XEP to do two things, which isn't a good design IMNSHO.
[17:31:43] <yagiza> Well...
[17:31:47] <yagiza> Maybe
[17:32:21] <yagiza> I have to think about it
[17:32:35] <Kev> Well - for example, otherwise you get "Hey, does Swift support 184?" 'Yes' "Which part?" 'Oh, only Read receipts, what about Psi?' "Oh, that only does Received receipts" and the like.
[17:32:41] <Zash> +1 on clarification at least
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[17:34:53] <yagiza> There are a lot of XEP's which were extended from version to version and old software supprots only old specifications of those XEPs.
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[17:35:41] <yagiza> And noone bothers. 'cause those XEPs are now in Either draft or in the Expiremental state.
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[17:36:10] <Kev> That's an argument for keeping them separate, isn't it?
[17:36:36] <yagiza> I don't know yet.
[17:37:15] <Kev> There, mail sent.
[17:38:23] <yagiza> It was a discussion if <read /> is a good idea or not. Now you are asking if <read /> it to implemented as part of XEP-0184 or a new XEP is to be created.
[17:38:45] <yagiza> So, I'm not ready to such discussion.
[17:38:57] <yagiza> I have to think
[17:39:08] <Kev> Wasn't it you that originally wanted <read/>?
[17:39:27] <Kev> I'm confused if you're not happy now that I've said I'm willing to accept the XEP!
[17:40:22] <yagiza> I didn't said anyting like that!
[17:40:33] <yagiza> I'm just thinking...
[17:41:48] <yagiza> Both <received /> and <read /> are describing states of the message on the other side. And that's what common in both of them.
[17:42:25] <yagiza> So, XEP-184 could be just renamed from "Message receipts" to "Message states" for example.
[17:42:37] <yagiza> And everything will be all right.
[17:43:15] <yagiza> You'll be able to extend it with more states if you'll imagine them.
[17:43:25] <yagiza> Before it became Final.
[17:43:41] <waqas> Or message acks, since that's what all implementations do, and that's what people often refer to them as.
[17:43:53] <Zash> <recived/><renderd/><read/><understood/>
[17:44:01] <stpeter> whoa, /me scrolls up
[17:44:05] <Kev> waqas: Although that gives the impression you can use them for retransmission, which I'd like to avoid.
[17:44:17] <yagiza> Zash, (^_^)
[17:44:39] <waqas> Kev: I'd like to have retransmission actually. Stream management does not solve the problem completely.
[17:45:04] <Kev> waqas: you can't, though - see the discussion about this for the last round of 184 changes.
[17:45:27] <Kev> There are situations in which the message will be delivered, but the sender will never receive a receipt.
[17:45:45] <waqas> Sure, that's why I'd have loved something like stream management, but end to end.
[17:46:40] <waqas> (I'm not suggesting an update to the XEP, just pointing out something I'd have liked)
[17:46:48] <Kev> Ok.
[17:46:53] <yagiza> <recived/><renderd/><displayed/><read/><notunderstood/><reread/><understood/><thinkingabout/><thinked/><replying/><replied/><rethinked/>
[17:47:16] <stpeter> yay, fire drill
[17:47:21] <deryni> Are we really thinking about making 0184 into (half of) 0022?
[17:47:33] <Kev> deryni: define 'we' :)
[17:48:05] <deryni> s/0184/0184 + new xep/ if you want. =)
[17:48:26] <MattJ> stpeter, when there's a fire, rule #1: Update your XMPP status message
[17:48:48] <Kev> MattJ: a clever server could then alert the authorities - get coding.
[17:49:11] <MattJ> The insurance companies are going to pay me millions for this!
[17:49:32] <Kev> deryni: Yes, I guess so. Although by splitting them up, one can die on the vine if no-one cares about it.
[17:50:12] <yagiza> /me writing XEP-XXX: Emergency
[17:50:53] <yagiza> <fire /><flood /><earthquake /><meteor_rain />
[17:51:03] <yagiza> Who can suggest more?
[17:51:23] <waqas> Be sure to allow an <other/> with an application-defined child.
[17:51:35] <Kev> With opaque text?
[17:51:36] <yagiza> Yep
[17:52:18] <yagiza> Ah! <airraid />
[17:53:11] <Florob> <WWIII/>
[17:53:16] <Zash> Florob: :D
[17:53:17] <waqas> <server-crash/>... delivering that would be a bit tough :)
[17:53:49] <Zash> <server-divided-by-zero-and-turned-into-a-black-hole/>
[17:53:55] <MattJ> waqas, wouldn't be an issue for us though, would it? ;)
[17:55:16] <yagiza> Every client, which supports this XEP, if one of the contacts in the roster published such event (even if it's offline now) wil start screaming with siren sounds and flash with red!
[17:55:49] <yagiza> Ant it will go on until that contact will stop publishing it!
[17:56:13] <evilotto> <server-on-fire/> is deliverable, at least for a short time.
[17:56:35] <Zash> +1
[17:56:42] <evilotto> <zombies/>
[17:56:44] <Zash> printer-on-fire ftw
[17:57:12] <MattJ> Basically you want a XEP with an error for each of the BOFH excuses?
[17:57:22] <yagiza> <evil_aliens />
[17:57:36] <evilotto> <alien-invasion/> what other disasters were there in Sim City 3000?
[17:58:27] <yagiza> <sun_going_nova />, <sun_going_supernova />
[17:58:53] <waqas> yagiza: Use hyphens instead of underscores in XML names ;)
[17:59:57] <yagiza> Ok
[18:01:33] <evilotto> if you're going to report an earthquake, should you also report the magnitude?
[18:02:01] <yagiza> <earthquake magnitude=5 />
[18:02:31] <yagiza> <tsunami height=15 />
[18:03:08] <yagiza> <avalanche height=10 speed=50 />
[18:04:03] <waqas> That's invalid XML. Quotes are required for attribute values.
[18:04:17] <stpeter> [11:48:26] <MattJ> stpeter, when there's a fire, rule #1: Update your XMPP status message
[18:04:20] <stpeter> you betcha :)
[18:04:37] <waqas> Also, user-tune ^^
[18:04:53] <waqas> Activity and mood would be informative as well.
[18:04:54] <stpeter> !xep 0127
[18:05:01] <stpeter> hmph
[18:05:01] <stpeter> http://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0127.html
[18:05:07] <stpeter> "Common Alerting Protocol (CAP) Over XMPP"
[18:05:34] <Zash> http://xkcd.com/723/
[18:06:21] <waqas> stpeter, is that being used somewhere?
[18:06:38] <stpeter> waqas: I know of at least one implementation / deployment
[18:06:53] <stpeter> http://www.desktopalert.net/
[18:07:01] <yagiza> stpeter, too bad it's just an example
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[18:07:54] <Kev> There you go, Peter :)
[18:08:01] <Kev> !xep 127
[18:08:02] <Kanchil> Kev: XEP-0127: Common Alerting Protocol (CAP) Over XMPP is Informational (Active, 2004-12-09) See: http://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0127.html
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[18:08:47] <Florob> whatever happened to that MUC PEP XEP anyway
[18:08:53] * yagiza joined the chat.
[18:09:37] <Zash> Florob: the whatnow
[18:09:59] <Florob> Zash, ask MattJ
[18:10:10] <Zash> MUC PEP?
[18:10:27] <yagiza> Bye!
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[18:11:54] <johnny> Zash, pay attention :)
[18:11:56] <johnny> hah
[18:12:14] <johnny> mattj actually did an implementation for gajim and prosody that allowed pep to be published and shown in a muc room
[18:12:53] <Florob> http://blog.prosody.im/multi-user-chat-gets-rich/
[18:12:58] <johnny> there's a post on the prosody blog from last year sometime that described it, but i have a feeling that gajim part won't apply
[18:13:22] <johnny> and mattj needs to update it to use the less duplicated php metods :)
[18:13:25] <johnny> pep*
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[18:32:13] <Zash> waqas?
[18:34:30] <evilotto> I wonder why most people don't have any status message at all. Do people just not think about it, do clients make it tough to get to, ... ?
[18:34:55] <Kev> evilotto: I've noticed far more Swift users with status messages than is usual.
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[18:35:04] <Kev> And we tried hard to make status setting in Swift easy.
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[18:35:12] <Zash> yes, Swift's status setting is quite awesome
[18:35:16] <Kev> I present no proof that this is cause and effect, but ...
[18:35:40] <Zash> Kev: Now make it as easy to do all the PEP mood and stuff ;)
[18:35:41] <Kev> Zash: thanks. It'll get better too - I just hope I have time to do it before 1.0 :)
[18:36:17] <deryni> There's also the fact that available status messages came late to the world of official clients, which I know caused AIM-using pidgin users no end of confusion when we added it.
[18:36:59] <Zash> deryni: pidgin's status setting thingy have a way of beeing annoying if you don't want to set a message
[18:37:26] <evilotto> setting status in tkabber is quite easy. mood, not so much (just needs a better plugin for it...)
[18:37:27] <deryni> People claim that, I've never understood it.
[18:37:42] <deryni> You don't type anything, you get no message.
[18:38:43] <Zash> deryni: but you need(?) to press enter
[18:38:49] <deryni> No you don't.
[18:38:58] <deryni> It times out after a second.
[18:38:59] <Zash> Timeout?
[18:39:07] <Zash> Never noticed
[18:39:45] <deryni> Many people don't. I have no idea how to make that more obvious. Well actually there was one suggestion I liked but never found time to actually sit down to do.
[18:39:55] <deryni> We just wouldn't show "typing..." until you actually hit a key. =)
[18:40:29] <Kev> deryni: have you seen Swift's?
[18:40:35] <Kev> That was the best way we could think of doing it.
[18:40:43] <deryni> I was just pulling up your screenshots actually.
[18:40:51] <Kev> There isn't a screenshot of the setter.
[18:40:57] <Kev> What platform are you on?
[18:41:07] <deryni> That was going to be my next question. =) Windows here.
[18:41:22] <Kev> http://swift.im/downloads/releases/swift-1.0beta4/Swift-installer-win32-1.0beta4.exe
[18:41:31] <Kev> Hot off the press.
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[18:42:29] <Zash> woot
[18:42:30] <Zash> beta4?
[18:42:55] <Kev> Zash: you're not reading all your MUCs ;)
[18:43:21] <Zash> Kev: Don't have autojoin on everything
[18:43:44] <Kev> Ah, so it's a ghost in the Swift MUC?
[18:43:48] <Kev> You're forgiven then. :)
[18:43:59] <Zash> I just joined now
[18:46:10] <deryni> Pulling up the Join Room dialog caused 5223 notices to show up and I appeared to have momentarily disconnected. It seems to be working this time though.
[18:46:44] <Kev> What were the notices?
[18:47:39] <deryni> Reconnect to pidgin.im failed: Error while sending data to the server. Will retry in 1 seconds.
[18:47:50] <Kev> Five thousand of those? o_O
[18:47:52] <deryni> Then one Disconnected one.
[18:48:04] <deryni> Is "Display Notice" supposed to do something?
[18:48:12] <Kev> Ah, yes, good find.
[18:48:21] <Kev> Some notices don't have a display associated with them. Filing now.
[18:48:35] <Zash> !version pidgin.im
[18:48:36] <deryni> Are notices silently aged off?
[18:48:37] <Kanchil> Zash: pidgin.im is running ejabberd version 2.0.1 on unix/linux 2.6.18
[18:48:48] <Kev> deryni: those that have been dealt with, yes.
[18:49:10] <Kev> e.g. disconnect notifications after you reconnect will age off (only the top 20 dealt-with notices will be kept)
[18:49:10] <deryni> Ah, display notice is dealing with them but not doing anything. Got it.
[18:49:35] <Kev> Filed that, thanks.
[18:51:48] <deryni> Some of the notices at the bottom have a grey first line (the earlier ones have a black one) and I can't display-notice-dismiss the grey ones.
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[18:54:22] <Kev> The grey ones are the ones that have been 'dealt with'
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[18:54:30] <Kev> So they'll just drop off the bottom on their own.
[18:54:43] <Kev> Lots of people have been confused by this - I need to rework it to something much more obvious.
[18:55:07] <johnny> i should try to compile swift again
[18:55:30] <deryni> Oh, I'd been assuming the bottom was newer. I guess getting 5000 of them at once makes order harder to notice.
[18:55:52] <MattJ> I thought bottom was newer too
[18:56:04] <MattJ> Reads the same way as the message log then
[18:56:10] <Zash> Kev: Perpaps scroll them slowly
[18:56:16] <Zash> when you add new
[18:56:35] <MattJ> Yes, so that 5000 will take forever
[18:56:41] <Zash> \o/
[18:56:50] <MattJ> but at least deryni can sit and watch them all carefully :)
[18:56:54] <deryni> Heh.
[18:57:05] <deryni> Just happened again. 4635 this time.
[18:57:16] <Kev> I find this quite worrying.
[18:58:13] <deryni> I got the debug console output this time, I'm looking.
[18:58:16] <Kev> Worrying or not though, I'm AFK for a bit.
[18:58:30] <Kev> deryni: fabulous, thanks - if there's anything obvious I think you've got my mail address.
[18:58:42] <Kev> And now you certainly have.
[18:59:09] <deryni> Yeah, I'll let you know what I see. I'll probably just dump you the whole log if that's ok. It'll make more sense to you.
[18:59:20] <Kev> Fine by me, thanks.
[18:59:39] <deryni> 8000+ lines, for the record. =)
[19:01:49] <deryni> disco#info queries to="pidgin.im" with ids from f to ali.
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[19:33:17] <Zash> Asterix: You should steal Swift's presence/status setter ;)
[19:33:39] <MattJ> That would be stealing!
[19:33:58] <Asterix> s/steal/be inspired :)
[19:34:39] <MattJ> :)
[19:34:51] <johnny> haha
[19:34:58] <johnny> /me awaits a long message
[19:35:04] <johnny> err long nick
[19:35:09] <MattJ> s/steal/improve upon/ would be even better
[19:35:11] <johnny> oh.. yes.. one of you can test it for me
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[19:59:39] <Zash> Hm, a way to get mood and activity in there without having a gazillion popups (like it's now) would be nice
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[20:01:13] <Zash> prefixes maybe, ala hashtags
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[21:00:43] <Kev> deryni: Ah, I see what's wrong.
[21:00:47] <Kev> You broke it.
[21:01:01] <Kev> That is all :)
[21:01:22] <darkrain42> Blame the user!
[21:01:30] <Kev> Yeah, so it's a dicso loop.
[21:02:03] <Kev> The release notes warn about this.
[21:02:14] <Kev> The release notes that I bypassed by giving you the exe without a link to them :)
[21:03:26] <Kev> (Swift tries to be clever, by recursing into the disco#items tree to find all the rooms on the current (or any other) specified server - so you don't need to know what the muc component is, just the server it hangs off.
[21:04:07] <Kev> It just doesn't check the node, so thinks that any jid should be looked up, and gets into a loop. My loop detecting code is also seemingly not working)
[21:04:22] <Kev> Both of the above will be fixed for 1.0 :)
[21:08:48] <deryni> I figured it'd be something like that.
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[21:12:34] <deryni> And on the topic that I grabbed swift for, personally I find that status setting widget confusing, but that's probably largely because it is the exact opposite of the way pidgin does it (in terms of workflow).
[21:14:03] <Kev> Oh, hrmm.
[21:14:11] <Kev> So it wasn't clear how to set your status?
[21:14:23] <Kev> Or just you hit the status you wanted once, and then it was clear what you should have done?
[21:15:27] <deryni> It took me two attempts at the selector to realize it was becoming an input area. I focused on the dropdown list immediately the first time and only said 'wait a minute, what're all these top entries, oh look an input area' a moment into the second try.
[21:15:54] <deryni> But like I said, I'm trained on the pidgin workflow which is click->dropdown of choices->select status->get input area.
[21:16:15] <Kev> Yeah - I'm trying to work out if that's an acceptable retraining.
[21:17:02] <Kev> I think it probably is, until end users start asking for the Pidgin way
[21:17:22] <Kev> Particularly as the next revision of that widget's going to be much more betterrer.
[21:17:23] <deryni> Personally, I'd be worried that the dual interactions would be confusing. The first click both changes the click target into an input area and expands a dropdown. I'd worry you are playing roulette with what people will focus on.
[21:17:38] <deryni> But I don't think there's inherently anything wrong with it.
[21:19:19] <johnny> i'm ok with the message being completely seperate from the status..
[21:19:50] <deryni> I might also suggest to try to keep the status icon in the entry area when composing, as visual indication of which status will be used if you just hit enter.
[21:20:24] <Kev> Ah, now that's a good idea, thanks.
[21:20:36] <Kev> And by 'good idea', I mean 'oh that's not going to be fun to code' :)
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[21:20:47] <deryni> Yeah, I didn't think it would be.
[21:21:19] <Kev> Ah, except the right thing to do is probably to highlight in the dropdown which one's going to be used.
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[21:21:30] <deryni> That was going to be my alternate suggestion.
[21:21:36] <Kev> Which is also not fun to code :)
[21:21:43] <deryni> But I wasn't sure that was a mechanic you had or wanted.
[21:21:47] <deryni> Heh.
[21:22:47] <Kev> I've dropped that into the issue tracker, but I don't know if I'll get around to it pre-1.0
[21:23:50] <Kev> 1.0 seems to be a careful balancing act of Getting Things Right and Maybe Shipping It Someday
[21:25:33] <deryni> That's largely why I dislike version numbers.
[21:25:47] <Kev> Pidgin uses dates?
[21:26:21] <deryni> No, for a while we just used an incrementing number, at the moment the version numbers are api related statements.
[21:26:47] <deryni> http://developer.pidgin.im/wiki/PidginCommunity#Whatwillthenextversionbenumbered
[21:26:57] <johnny> i like dates
[21:27:13] <johnny> 2010.06.22
[21:27:56] <johnny> Kev, you'll never have a 1.0 release that way ..
[21:28:08] <Kev> johnny: Right - I see a lot of merit in dates.
[21:28:27] <Kev> But you know, having stopped running the Psi project, I mostly just want to see a client reach 1.0 ;)
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[21:28:50] <deryni> pidgin did that years ago. =)
[21:29:18] <Kev> deryni: I've never been a Pidgin dev ;)
[21:29:25] <johnny> Kev, or. the other way.. perhaps simplier
[21:29:39] <johnny> is make your first release 1.5.<revno>
[21:29:47] <Kev> Heh, yes.
[21:29:55] <johnny> just skip 1.0
[21:29:58] <johnny> i think it's b est
[21:30:05] <deryni> Quitting time, later all.
[21:30:05] <johnny> it's like how some stores don't take starter checks :)
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[21:30:15] <Kev> gn deryni.
[21:30:39] <johnny> Kev, in any case.. just skip 1.0.. your life will be much less stressed
[21:32:00] <johnny> 1.<revno> has some benefit as well tho
[21:32:21] <johnny> in that you can still get a better idea of how many changes were put insce
[21:32:43] <Kev> That's how our packaging works between releases.
[21:33:17] <Kev> Packages are generated from Git source - if there's a tag, it names the release according to the tag. If there's no tag, it names it based on how many commits there've been since the last release.
[21:33:23] <Zash> What exactly does "Standards Track" mean in XEPs?
[21:33:58] <Kev> Zash: see [xep 1]
[21:33:58] <Kanchil> Kev: XEP-0001: XMPP Extension Protocols is Procedural (Active, 2008-01-23) See: http://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0001.html
[21:34:18] <Kev> "3.1 Standards Track A Standards Track XEP defines one of the following: A wire protocol intended to be used as a standard part of XMPP technologies. [13] A protocol suite that determines conformance requirements (e.g., XMPP Compliance Suites 2010 [14])."
[21:34:43] <Zash> Kev: Meh, way to be faster than mah interwebz :/
[21:36:17] <Zash> /me thinks that [xep 45] should should recomend servers to not send *all* saved history if the client doesn't specify anything with <history/>
[21:36:17] <Kanchil> Zash: XEP-0045: Multi-User Chat is Standards Track (Draft, 2008-07-16) See: http://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0045.html
[21:37:41] <waqas> It leaves it to the implementation and deployment, which is the right thing to do IMO :)
[21:38:02] <Kev> waqas: I think a recommendation to send the history up to the last time you saw the user, would not be stupid.
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[21:38:24] <waqas> True
[21:38:47] <waqas> That does have some negative side effects though
[21:39:07] <Kev> I'm only suggesting it for the case that the client doesn't say what to do.
[21:40:05] <waqas> That's the case I mean. When you consider ghosts, and clients which close their tabs/windows on going out of the room, you can lose history :/
[21:40:26] <waqas> And how do you determine when the user was last in there? Compare bare JID? Full JID?
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[21:40:46] <Zash> diffrent clients? at diffrent locations?
[21:41:49] <waqas> Disco/version query? IP checking?
[21:42:50] <Kev> bare JID, I'd have gone for.
[21:43:08] <Kev> What you say is right, though.
[21:43:25] <Kev> You're going to find situations in which this loses you history that the stupid approach gets you.
[21:43:40] <Kev> And that's probably worse than getting too much history.
[21:47:35] <Zash> I think it would be simple and good enough to just have a number of lines you send by default, like 20 (which is what most implementations have stored)
[21:47:47] <Zash> (most implementations = ejabberd and maybe prosody)
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[21:48:14] <Zash> afaik prosody does that (send ~20 < store more)
[21:48:19] <Zash> or was going to
[21:48:27] <Zash> /me pokes waqas and MattJ
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[21:51:19] <Zash> 175 if not history_tag then maxstanzas = 20; end
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[22:02:37] <MattJ> Gah, did we still not make that stupid constant configurable?
[22:02:45] <MattJ> !slap waqas
[22:02:53] <MattJ> /me commits the slap plugin to riddim...
[22:03:07] <Kev> Was that a hint? :p
[22:03:17] <MattJ> ;)
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[22:04:44] <Kev> !slap MattJ
[22:04:44] <Kanchil> /me slaps MattJ with large trout
[22:04:52] <MattJ> :P
[22:04:58] <MattJ> That's a bug, HAL would never slap me
[22:05:09] <darkrain42> !version Kanchil
[22:05:09] <Kanchil> darkrain42: Kanchil is running Riddim version alpha on an unknown platform
[22:08:13] <Kev> Bonus points for people who work out why it's called Kanchil.
[22:08:31] <MattJ> That was on my todo
[22:08:46] <MattJ> Oh, it isn't anymore
[22:08:52] <MattJ> But I won't spoil it for the others :)
[22:09:00] <Kev> :)
[22:09:02] <MattJ> Kanchil <3
[22:10:11] <waqas> That's easy enough to figure out :)
[22:10:28] <waqas> Probably not for most people I suppose :)
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