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[12:56:00] <yagiza> Hello!
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[13:00:34] <yagiza> Which is the best way to suggest something to an already existing XEP with "Draft" status? Do I have to contact the author of the XEP or do I have to discuss it in the mailing list?
[13:01:14] <deryni> I'd say the mailing list is probably better, though here can be good if you want quick feedback.
[13:01:57] <Kev> Here is sane, or the standards@ ML.
[13:02:17] <Kev> The author won't be able to make changes to it without discussion on the ML anyway.
[13:02:34] <Kev> Here's a good place to start, though.
[13:02:38] <yagiza> Thank you!
[13:02:53] <yagiza> Welll... How often stpeter appears here?
[13:03:07] <Kev> Often - what are you after?
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[13:04:58] <yagiza> First of all, I wanted to discuss XEP-0184
[13:05:20] <Kev> Righty - what about it?
[13:06:03] <yagiza> I think it would be a good idea to add <read /> element to the list of possible responses.
[13:06:33] <Kev> Doesn't receiving the receipt already imply that?
[13:06:48] <yagiza> ???
[13:06:58] <yagiza> What do you mean?
[13:07:17] <Kev> The client will only send the receipt after the message has been shown to the user (or processed in whatever other way is appropriate)
[13:07:33] <yagiza> Yeah, but...
[13:08:04] <yagiza> Most of clients usually displays jut arrived messages as "new"
[13:08:12] <deryni> What case are you trying to catch that isn't currently being handled? Client displays the message then crashes?
[13:08:29] <waqas> What I would really like added to that (or a separate XEP) is sane resending of failed messages.
[13:08:46] <Kev> waqas: well, that's what 198 is for.
[13:09:03] <waqas> Kev: True. Hopefully we'll have implementations soon.
[13:09:21] <Kev> Right.
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[13:09:42] <yagiza> Then, somehow they're desiding that message is read by the user (appropriate chat window got focus, or were opened by user action)
[13:09:58] <waqas> I might have to write an xmpp proxy for it, to put it in front of my client. I doubt most clients would be getting support soon, and it's something I need.
[13:10:06] <yagiza> Then those messages are marked as read (internally)
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[13:10:14] <Kev> waqas: that would indeed be interesting.
[13:10:21] <Kev> yagiza: right, and at that point it sends the receipt.
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[13:10:32] <yagiza> Hmm!
[13:10:42] <Kev> (After asking the user or whatever checking is appropriate)
[13:11:24] <yagiza> I don't know, but, Bombus, for example, sends the receipt just when message is aarived and stored internally. Not after it marked as read.
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[13:11:33] <Kev> yagiza: that's wrong.
[13:11:50] <yagiza> Do you think so?
[13:11:57] <Kev> The XEP says so.
[13:12:11] <yagiza> Ok. I'll read it more carefuly.
[13:12:17] <Kev> "The term "processed" is understood to include presentation to a human user if appropriate"
[13:13:00] <yagiza> Yeah
[13:13:23] <yagiza> It is presented to the user, but user still didn't read it.
[13:13:57] <Kev> If the user hasn't seen the message, it hasn't been presented to the user
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[13:15:22] <yagiza> It is displayed on the screen, but the application thinks that user may not noticed it, 'cause appropriate chat window has no focus and user maybe looking into another window.
[13:16:08] <deryni> Yeah, if the intention there is that the user has to actually have read it the XEP is less than clear. I'd definitely have read it as creating an IM window is "presented".
[13:16:11] <Kev> If the application doesn't think the user has read it yet, it shouldn't send the receipt.
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[13:16:38] <Kev> These are analogous to read receipts in email
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[13:16:52] <yagiza> Is there any XMPP-client which beahves this way?
[13:17:47] <Kev> I don't know what clients do with 184 - I've not seen the point in the spec myself.
[13:17:47] <yagiza> 'cause the only client I know, which supports this XEP is Bombus and its mods.
[13:18:08] <yagiza> And it behaves the way I described.
[13:18:19] <Kev> I believe Gajim had some code for this at some point.
[13:18:28] <Kev> yagiza: maybe we should tighten up the wording of the XEP again, then.
[13:18:33] <Kev> I thought this was already pretty clear.
[13:18:33] <deryni> I don't see the point in read receipts. I can sort of see the point for simple "did my message get there" receipts, which is why I read it that way.
[13:18:49] <Kev> deryni: right, but 184's (explicitly) the wrong way to do that.
[13:19:01] <Kev> Well, it is and it isn't.
[13:19:08] <yagiza> Seems the XEP is not too clear, if the author of Bombus implemented the feature wrong way?
[13:19:10] <Kev> I don't see what the point in knowing it got there is.
[13:19:20] <Kev> yagiza: or he implemented an old version, before it was clear.
[13:19:41] <yagiza> Anyway
[13:19:43] <Kev> deryni: I see the point in either 'I know it will get there', or in some circumstances 'I know that the other person has read it'.
[13:20:12] <Kev> 'I know it's got there, but I've no idea if the user's going to read it' doesn't seem worthwhile to me.
[13:20:22] <yagiza> I think user is interested in both the fact the messge is received by the client and the fact the message is read by the user.
[13:20:25] <Kev> We get "I know it'll get there" from 198, and "I know they've read it" from 184.
[13:20:29] <deryni> See I understand the first one and the last one, but not the middle one.
[13:20:43] <deryni> My problem with read receipts is they leak availability/timing information.
[13:20:58] <Kev> Right - that's why they're explicitly not for reliability etc.
[13:21:02] <deryni> Message receipts are simple failure checks.
[13:21:22] <Kev> No they're not - you've no idea if you'll receive one, even if the message gets there fine.
[13:21:22] <deryni> And yes, are not reliable as such in all cases.
[13:21:39] <Kev> The user can just decide not to send you the receipt, just like in email.
[13:22:02] <deryni> Right, I see no point in not sending a message receipt but plenty of reasons not to send read receipts.
[13:22:12] <deryni> (I never send them for email for example.)
[13:22:35] <deryni> I'm not arguing the xep shouldn't be tightened up to actually be read receipts, just that I read it as something else.
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[13:22:54] <yagiza> Seems deryni's agree with me...
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[13:23:25] <Kev> deryni: well, for most purposes they're the same thing.
[13:23:32] <Kev> (In terms of a privacy leak)
[13:25:25] <yagiza> Well...
[13:25:42] <yagiza> I've reread the XEP 10 times
[13:26:45] <yagiza> It's still unclear for me, that <received /> signal that message were read by the user, not just received, successfuly processed and displayd.
[13:27:12] <Kev> Displayed *to the user*.
[13:27:27] <Kev> It doesn't just say presented, it says 'presented to the user'
[13:27:39] <Kev> which seems to me to be synonymous with "the user has seen it"
[13:28:31] <deryni> See I don't think they are, message receipts go out immediately. Sure they leak online availability if your client sends them to someone who doesn't have your presence but I might argue that that's a client/server bug. But read receipts leak (on top of that) the time you actually were available to process the message. Which has all sorts of extra problems.
[13:29:04] <deryni> Don't get me wrong, I think they both suck and pidgin isn't likely to ever do either by default, but I'd accept (and even consider writing) a message receipt plugin well before a read receipt plugin.
[13:29:08] <Kev> deryni: there's probably some truth in that.
[13:29:12] <yagiza> Yeah, but there is no mention that the application should wait for any confirmation from the user, to ensure that he saw the message.
[13:29:23] <Kev> yagiza: that's true.
[13:29:43] <Kev> yagiza: but how does the application know that the message was presented to the user?
[13:29:47] <Kev> There must be some method.
[13:30:02] <Kev> In a desktop client that's typically going to be that the user has selected that chat window to bring it to front.
[13:30:25] <yagiza> So, it just displayed the message and consider that it were "presented" to him.
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[13:33:03] <yagiza> For me "presented" do not sounds like "ensured that user saw the message".
[13:33:07] <deryni> Yeah, window creation seems like a naively simple place to put the "has been presented" line.
[13:34:04] <deryni> One more thing about the difference, while I would argue that it is almost certainly wrong for a client to send a message receipt to someone who doesn't have presence I'm not certain I could reasonably make the same argument about read receipts (I'm not sure I couldn't I'm just not sure the usages are similar enough to make the arguments identical).
[13:35:35] <yagiza> Ok. Let's wait for stpeter, to ask him what did he mean by that.
[13:35:38] <deryni> So I have to head in to work in a minute but I think an email to standards@ asking for clarification on what the purpose is supposed to be and on how clients actually use it is likely a good idea, with the idea of finding some text to flesh out the current 'implementation note' about what "processed" means.
[13:35:45] <Kev> The thing I have about these read receipts or message receipts is that they're solving only the technical part of the problem.
[13:35:46] <yagiza> I have another question.
[13:36:08] <Kev> Far more often the reply to "Did you get my message about X?" is "Oh, yeah - but I was busy and I forgot", not "Oh, the network must have gobbled that one"
[13:36:40] <deryni> Yeah, my big thing has always been if the message needs a response you'll respond and the auto-generated response is pointless if it doesn't you may or may not respond and the auto-generated response is pointless. =)
[13:36:54] <Kev> If I remember correctly, what Peter meant by that was "Let's add some text here to shut that Kevin Smith guy up about his complaints".
[13:37:02] <deryni> Heh.
[13:37:15] <yagiza> (^_^)
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[13:38:02] <yagiza> I'm just about that PEP thing
[13:38:16] <Kev> Shoot.
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[13:38:41] <yagiza> I think it is duscussed here really often.
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[13:39:10] <yagiza> But I don't know where to read about it.
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[13:39:23] <Kev> XEP-0163
[13:39:33] <yagiza> Yeah, yeah!
[13:41:26] <yagiza> So, the notification message is sent to the subscriber only if: 1. Publisher publishes data 2. Subscriber goes online, and publishes is online already and publisher published the data already
[13:41:48] <Kev> For 2 the publisher doesn't need to be online.
[13:42:03] <yagiza> Hmmm
[13:42:10] <Kev> So a subscriber gets the message either 1) When it changes if they're online 2) When they log on.
[13:42:31] <yagiza> I never received notification message when publisers were offline
[13:43:12] <yagiza> The publiser's or subscriber's pubsub server were configured wrong?
[13:43:32] <Kev> The publisher could just have removed their nodes when they logged off, or such.
[13:43:36] <Kev> Or the
[13:43:55] <Kev> publisher's server may not persist the nodes and it had been restarted
[13:44:02] <yagiza> No
[13:44:04] <Kev> Or whatever.
[13:44:16] <Kev> It sounds like a bug, but there could be a number of legitimate reasons for it.
[13:44:36] <yagiza> The data is still published, 'cause when publisher goes online, he receives the notification messages from the server!
[13:46:20] <yagiza> And if after publisher is online, when subscriber goes offline the back online, he received the notification messages without any additional actions from the publisher.
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[13:47:02] <Kev> That sounds like a server bug - is this jabber.org you're talking about, or somewhere eles?
[13:47:04] <Kev> *else.
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[13:47:35] <yagiza> I've tries isgeek.info, jabberes.org and taptap.ru
[13:47:40] <yagiza> tried
[13:47:55] <yagiza> Kev, do you know any XMPP server which sends notification messages when publisher's offline?
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[13:48:16] <yagiza> I just wan to try it.
[13:48:33] <Kev> Hmm, they're all running the same server. You could try against a server running different software, like jabber.org
[13:48:49] <yagiza> Ok
[13:49:03] <Kev> Or I've just misremembered the spec, and this is correct - which is very possible.
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[13:49:44] <yagiza> /me will try jabber.org right now!
[13:49:55] <Kev> I'm hoping waqas or someone will jump in in a moment if I'm just being wrong :)
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[14:00:10] <waqas> PEP isn't tied to the publisher's presence, only the subscriber's. Kev is correct.
[14:01:10] <yagiza> Yeah!
[14:01:15] <yagiza> Just tried
[14:01:30] <yagiza> With jabber.org it's all right!
[14:01:39] <Kev> Pleased to hear it :)
[14:01:54] <yagiza> It seems that ejabberd is buggy! (v_v)
[14:02:27] <waqas> Or misconfigured.
[14:02:29] <yagiza> Shit! ejabberd is buggy, openfire is much more buggy.
[14:02:41] <waqas> Haven't heard of this issue before.
[14:02:57] <yagiza> Most of other servers do not support PEP at all!
[14:03:05] <yagiza> What to do? (v_v)
[14:03:14] <Kev> Buy a copy of M-Link! >: )
[14:03:26] <Kev> waqas: does Prosody do PEP?
[14:03:29] <waqas> Yep
[14:03:38] <yagiza> WTF M-Link?
[14:03:45] <Kev> It's the software that runs jabber.org
[14:03:54] <waqas> With presence caps hash support! ^^
[14:04:28] <yagiza> I'm developing jabber client. I'm not running jubber server.
[14:04:44] <Kev> Ah. Then you just have to deal with the servers that're out there :)
[14:04:57] <yagiza> Yeah
[14:05:26] <yagiza> So, I just have to build a list of the servers which work correctly.
[14:05:40] <yagiza> To suggest them to the users.
[14:06:08] <Kev> Well, clients typically just let users use whatever they want. Each server's going to have different features and issues.
[14:06:29] <yagiza> 'cause the most the interesting features of my client are PEP-based
[14:06:44] <yagiza> ...most of the...
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[14:11:46] <yagiza> jabberd doesn't seems to support PEP at all...
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[22:29:28] <Florob> Is there some working way to look at the svn repo/diffs therein?
[22:32:50] <waqas> http://github.com/xsf/documentation/ ?
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[22:33:59] <Florob> waqas, too old (AFAICT)
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[22:37:56] <waqas> Florob: How about the diff viewer? Would that work for whatever you are trying to do?
[22:38:25] <Florob> waqas, Guess not. I'm trying to look at what stpeter did to the I-D
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[23:07:54] <Aidan> Can someone tell me what's supposed to go inside of the <auth> element for XMPP SASL negotiation? It appears to be base-64 encoded, is it the password?
[23:08:18] <waqas> Which SASL mechanism? PLAIN?
[23:08:41] <Aidan> Yeah
[23:08:42] <Aidan> <auth xmlns='urn:ietf:params:xml:ns:xmpp-sasl'
[23:08:45] <Aidan> >
[23:09:11] <Aidan> OOps
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[23:09:29] <Aidan> Here: <auth xmlns='urn:ietf:params:xml:ns:xmpp-sasl'mechanism='PLAIN'>AGp1bGlldAByMG0zMG15cjBtMzA=</auth>
[23:10:00] <waqas> In PLAIN you have.. authzid, authcid and password, with the nul character in between them. authzid is usually empty, authcid is your username.
[23:10:15] <waqas> So, \0user\0pass
[23:10:41] <Aidan> The base-64 text inside that element above is julietr0m30myr0m30 when it's decoded.
[23:10:55] <Aidan> So it the user "juliet", and the password "r0m30myr0m30"?
[23:11:06] <waqas> See RFC 4616: The PLAIN Simple Authentication and Security Layer (SASL) Mechanism
[23:11:31] <waqas> XMPP uses SASL, it doesn't define it.
[23:11:49] <Aidan> I know
[23:11:55] <Aidan> That RFC doesn't exist though
[23:12:16] <Zash> "doesn't exist"?
[23:12:17] <waqas> http://www.ietf.org/rfc/rfc4616.txt - apparently it does
[23:12:24] <Aidan> I've been using the RFC's (http://xmpp.org/rfcs/) and the Internet-Drafts (http://xmpp.org/internet-drafts/)
[23:12:25] <Zash> http://www.ietf.org/rfc/rfc4616.txt that one?
[23:12:27] <Aidan> Oh .txt
[23:12:30] <Aidan> Thanks
[23:12:38] <Zash> Aidan: first hit on google
[23:12:50] <waqas> It's not XMPP specific. No reason for it to be on xmpp.org.
[23:13:09] <Aidan> But the XML is XMPP specific
[23:13:15] <Aidan> I understand SASL
[23:13:24] <Aidan> It's just the XMPP code for negotiating it
[23:13:43] <waqas> Ah, okay.
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[23:14:01] <Aidan> This is the XMPP tutorial on SASL: http://xmpp.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-xmpp-3920bis-08.html#sasl
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[00:22:09] <SJr> Besides Reading the RFC, is there a quick guide to XMPP basics, I wrote a library a few years ago, but that was mainly through reverse engineering what Psi dumped in the console.
[00:23:09] <SJr> I've also forgotten most of it
[00:23:28] <SJr> and looking at some of it, it's probably not the best way to do things.
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[00:23:53] <Zash> I think I found some quick guide on some IBM website
[00:24:09] <Zash> http://www.ibm.com/developerworks/webservices/library/x-xmppintro/index.html there it was
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[00:25:05] <Zash> Hm, not the one I was thinking of
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[00:31:48] <Zash> .
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[01:17:55] <Idk> Can someone point me to an XMPP tutorial explaining how to use DIGEST-MD5 and any mechanisms other than "PLAIN" for SASL authorization? The XMPP RFCs and Internet-Drafts only show examples of the PLAIN mechanism.
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[01:18:33] <Zash> Idk: You might want to skip that and go straight for SCRAM
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[01:18:53] <Idk> Is there any tutorials on that (with actual XMPP XML code)?
[01:22:35] <Zash> There's implementations at least :)
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