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[16:00:11] <test911> why is jabber so unsuccessful compared with IRC?
[16:01:33] <Kev> It's not.
[16:02:45] <test911> its not?
[16:02:55] <MattJ> +1, it's not
[16:03:01] <test911> show me the rooms containing at least 1K of users?
[16:03:16] <Kev> That's an entirely different question.
[16:03:24] <MattJ> I don't think having a room containing 1K of users defines whether something is successful :)
[16:03:32] <Kev> I could ask "Show me an IRC network with 30 million users", just as well.
[16:03:43] <Kev> It hardly makes it a sensible question.
[16:04:35] <test911> it does make it sensible. 30 million is a bit different from 1K
[16:04:52] <test911> I havent even found a channel here with at least 100
[16:05:05] <test911> and servers are full of empty channels, making a mess in the list ;]
[16:05:25] <test911> put some real arguments
[16:05:35] <test911> I think its unsuccessful
[16:05:45] <MattJ> Most Jabber users don't use it for chatrooms
[16:06:18] <test911> ok. Lets compare it by user volumes
[16:06:23] <MattJ> Oh yes, let's :P
[16:06:32] <Kev> How many people use IRC?
[16:06:50] <Kev> I'm not sure how you'd be able to tell, but let's see.
[16:06:52] <test911> where can I find user volume info for XMPP/Jabber servers?
[16:07:05] <Kev> I can tell you how many uses jabber.org has.
[16:07:09] <MattJ> According to Freenode: Current global users 52364, max 64361
[16:07:10] <Kev> Plus every gmail user
[16:07:18] <Kev> Plus every Facebook user.
[16:07:24] <Kev> Plus every Livejournal user.
[16:07:40] <Kev> So, start of with - do you know how many gmail users there are?
[16:07:55] <MattJ> I've heard about 100 million quoted prior to now
[16:08:08] <test911> well, I am a gmail user too. But I never used jabber with it
[16:08:11] <test911> so here you go
[16:08:20] <Kev> Are you sure?
[16:08:23] <Kev> It uses XMPP by default.
[16:08:26] <test911> yes I am
[16:08:33] <Kev> So you have to explicitly disable it.
[16:08:37] <test911> I have never had a chat in gmail
[16:09:14] <test911> what server do gmail and facebook users use?
[16:09:26] <Kev> In what sense?
[16:09:39] <MattJ> Both Google and Facebook developed their own
[16:09:40] <test911> to be handled by
[16:09:49] <test911> I see
[16:10:16] <test911> so its not so open. I mean I can not connect there with any jabber/xmpp client
[16:10:20] <MattJ> Yes you can
[16:10:25] <MattJ> To both
[16:10:28] <test911> can I
[16:10:32] <test911> what are the servers?
[16:10:35] <MattJ> !gt
[16:10:39] <MattJ> Aww, no bot
[16:10:43] <Kev> gmail.com for gmail.
[16:10:45] <MattJ> http://www.google.com/talk/otherclients.html
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[16:11:05] <test911> okay
[16:11:06] <Kev> Just tell your XMPP-compliant client to connect to your gmail address as a JID, with your gmail password, and you're in.
[16:11:10] <test911> and for facebook?
[16:11:28] <test911> but what if I want to use the ID I have now?
[16:11:29] <Kev> http://www.facebook.com/sitetour/chat.php
[16:11:38] <Kev> Yes, that's what I said.
[16:11:41] <test911> to connect to these facebook and gmail servers
[16:11:43] <test911> ?
[16:11:49] <MattJ> Just put them in your XMPP client
[16:11:49] <Kev> You put the gmail address you already have into the client, and it connects.
[16:13:09] <test911> okay. Can I query services from gmail and facebook using this account I use now?
[16:13:29] <Kev> Facebook doesn't federate yet - gmail federates fully.
[16:13:48] <Kev> So you can add users @gmail.com to accounts @jabber.org, or wherever.
[16:13:51] <test911> does it. I just tried querying services for gmail.com
[16:14:00] <test911> didnt work
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[16:14:25] <MattJ> What kind of services are you looking for?
[16:14:37] <test911> Service Directory
[16:14:46] <test911> for things like channels
[16:15:32] <MattJ> Gmail don't have anything like that, their choice
[16:16:03] <MattJ> But a few people in this room are joined using their Gmail accounts, for example
[16:18:24] <test911> I see
[16:19:08] <test911> which XMPP/Jabber server is the bigest one apart from gmail and facebook?
[16:20:07] <test911> and, you said gmail doesn't support channels. Does facebook support them?
[16:20:12] <MattJ> Hard to say, there are many public servers, and they don't all publish stats
[16:20:16] <Kev> jabber.org is reasonably large, jabber.ru is reasonably large I think.
[16:20:17] <MattJ> No, they don't
[16:20:26] <Kev> GMail users can use channels fine.
[16:20:31] <MattJ> jabbim.cz is another large public one
[16:20:37] <Kev> Anyone on the public network can join any channel on the public network.
[16:20:46] <test911> so, gmail users can have channels? How do I query the list then?
[16:20:50] <Kev> It's not like IRC where you have to be connected to the right server to be able to chat in a channel.
[16:20:51] <test911> how about channels in facebook?
[16:20:53] <MattJ> You can create channels here
[16:21:04] <Kev> Facebook doesn't federate (yet, hopefully), so they can't.
[16:21:08] <MattJ> or any of the public servers
[16:21:37] <test911> Kev, IRC can also have servers connected together in a specific network
[16:22:00] <Kev> Yes, but you have to get the right network.
[16:22:06] <test911> will facebook have channel support anytime do u know?
[16:22:15] <Kev> If I'm connected to freenode, I can't chat on efnet.
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[16:22:26] <test911> so, all public networks in jabber/xmpp ar kinda connected
[16:22:35] <Kev> With the exception of odd services like facebook that don't federate, almost any Jabber user can chat with any other one.
[16:22:40] <Kev> Yes, in a similar model to email.
[16:23:19] <Kev> So a darkdna.net user is chatting to a doomsong.co.uk user, a prosody.im user in here, etc.
[16:23:41] <test911> okay, I see
[16:24:11] <test911> so, gmail fedrates, facebook does not federate, and they both do not support channels?
[16:24:20] <Kev> They neither have their own channels.
[16:24:27] <Kev> (Although I think gmail's working on something there)
[16:24:38] <test911> I see
[16:24:43] <Kev> But gmail users can chat in other channels fine.
[16:25:01] <test911> does anybody have any info on how many users jabber.org has online? aproximately?
[16:25:18] <Kev> It's usually 16k or so at any one time.
[16:25:22] <Kev> 330k registered.
[16:25:37] <Kev> Connected with about 3000 other servers.
[16:25:44] <test911> 16k is not bad. What the hell do they all do? As they are not in channels
[16:25:54] <Kev> IM.
[16:26:33] <test911> where do u get this statistics from?
[16:26:35] <Kev> IRC is almost entirely channel-based (yes, you can /msg, but it's reasonably limited). XMPP is much more about presence and messaging, although it does support channels too in a rich way.
[16:26:42] <Kev> Which statistics?
[16:26:58] <waqas> Test: Let's see if I can send messages with role=none.
[16:27:01] <test911> user volumes
[16:27:02] <MattJ> Looks like jabber.ru is 15K peak: http://stats.jabber.ru/
[16:27:10] <Kev> test911: I'm one of the jabber.org admins.
[16:27:17] <MattJ> and jabbim.cz: http://www.jabbim.com/about-stats.html
[16:27:21] <test911> ok, cool
[16:27:31] <test911> ok Kev
[16:28:00] <test911> I see, I looked at both stats, thanks for providing it
[16:28:45] <test911> how about SSL in these biggest jabber servers?
[16:29:00] <Kev> I don't know of any large services that don't have ssl support.
[16:29:04] <MattJ> Me neither
[16:29:24] <MattJ> and Google go so far as to require it I think
[16:29:37] <test911> okay, now thats great
[16:29:54] <test911> is it enabled by default? I havent checked much in my settings yet
[16:30:16] <test911> and by the way, why are those server certificates are only self signed?
[16:30:20] <Kev> In most clients, yes.
[16:30:34] <Kev> test911: some servers are self signed. jabber.org isn't, for example.
[16:30:56] <test911> yeah I noticed that jabber.org isnt
[16:31:02] <test911> but why others are :/
[16:31:37] <MattJ> I'm very proud that my own server has an expired self-signed certificate for a domain it doesn't serve :)
[16:31:42] <Kev> Heh.
[16:31:56] <Kev> Mine has a valid certificate for the domain it does serve :p
[16:32:46] <test911> ;]]]
[16:33:06] <Kev> test911: although even a self-signed cert gives you quite a lot of security
[16:33:22] <Kev> As you can do leap-of-faith - which is typically all anyone does anyway - even with ssh.
[16:33:25] <test911> and, how can I check if the other user is using SSL? SO that I know that messages are not decrypted on the server?
[16:33:38] <MattJ> That's rather tricky
[16:33:44] <Kev> They are decrypted on the server - TLS encryption is per-hop.
[16:33:45] <MattJ> Since even if you asked them, they might lie
[16:33:51] <test911> I see
[16:33:54] <Kev> If you want end to end encryption, you can gpg encrypt stuff.
[16:34:04] <Kev> Or there are various other more friendly protocols being looked at.
[16:34:29] <test911> whats the best one?
[16:34:42] <test911> in ur opinion
[16:34:47] <Kev> Best encryption protocol?
[16:35:12] <test911> yeah, then one which is implemente in a jabber,xmpp client
[16:35:13] <Kev> gpg is supported for end to end encryption in the client you're using - so that :)
[16:35:20] <test911> which would be available
[16:35:33] <test911> okay
[16:35:46] <test911> can you recap me what algorithms gpg uses?
[16:35:59] <Kev> I can't.
[16:36:07] <test911> ok
[16:36:19] <test911> I can't remember either
[16:36:24] <MattJ> Gajim also has e2e encryption, and some clients (like Pidgin) have OTR support
[16:36:44] <Kev> The state of e2e encryption's not ideal at the moment. Hopefully that'll change in future.
[16:37:00] <test911> yeah, it is ideal
[16:37:12] <MattJ> It's mainly not ideal because of different clients using different methods
[16:37:17] <test911> gpg uses asymetric encryption as far as I remember?
[16:37:22] <MattJ> Yes
[16:37:27] <MattJ> Well
[16:37:29] <test911> why do u hope it to change? MattJ
[16:37:44] <MattJ> Because not all clients do GPG
[16:37:49] <MattJ> not all do OTR
[16:38:00] <MattJ> and not all do the old E2E spec
[16:38:05] <test911> whats that OTR? A new one to me
[16:38:16] <MattJ> It's common, Google is your friend :)
[16:38:31] <test911> MattJ: ;]
[16:38:55] <test911> mmmm, so is there a way to check if other end is connected using SSL?
[16:39:01] <MattJ> At the moment it's being worked on to produce a single recommended secure end-to-end encryption protocol for XMPP
[16:39:18] <MattJ> and then clients will start to implement it, and the world will be a better place :)
[16:39:24] <MattJ> No, there's no way
[16:39:30] <MattJ> Like I said, even if you asked, they could like
[16:39:30] <test911> do any of major jabber servers support guest logins?
[16:39:31] <MattJ> *lie
[16:39:50] <MattJ> They don't, because that would make it a wonderful place for spammers :)
[16:40:38] <test911> but I noticed that darkdna could be exploited for that as it does not use captcha?
[16:40:41] <test911> MattJ:
[16:41:14] <MattJ> Most servers have a per-IP throttle on registrations, and other things
[16:41:35] <test911> what do u mean other things?
[16:41:38] <MattJ> jabber.org was specifically targeted at one point, which is why we switched to using a CAPTCHA
[16:41:45] <test911> how about channel login throttling?
[16:41:52] <test911> thats an interesting one
[16:42:01] <MattJ> It's all up to the server, but yes, that's possible
[16:42:30] <test911> how bout jabber.org?
[16:42:35] <test911> does it have anything?
[16:42:49] <test911> so your saying that XMPP server software has this functionality coded in?
[16:43:43] <MattJ> Yes, exactly
[16:43:52] <MattJ> I don't know what jabber.org does
[16:44:27] <test911> I see
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[16:45:17] <test911> are there any throttling in the amount of messages you can get from other users at any one time? from different ip addresses?
[16:46:00] <MattJ> It's all up to the server
[16:46:00] <Kev> Up to the server.
[16:46:03] <MattJ> Heh
[16:46:14] <test911> so this functionality is also coded in
[16:46:16] <test911> your saying
[16:46:26] <Kev> There are certainly scenarios where you do not want such limiting, and some where you might.
[16:46:39] <MattJ> There are some guidelines available, but yes, what a server does is entirely up to implementation and policy
[16:47:03] <test911> I see
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[16:57:04] <test911> I didn't quite understood why we all been disconnected and I haven't even been notified by the APP?
[16:59:00] <test911> :/
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[17:19:39] <test911> :/
[17:19:51] <test911> MattJ: what happened?
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[17:20:38] <test911> MattJ: what are default throttling policies on the server code compile time?
[17:20:53] <test911> Kev: What happened?
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[17:22:42] <test911> Kev: ; MattJ - what IM's do u use?
[17:22:47] <Kev> Client?
[17:23:00] <test911> yeah
[17:23:08] <Kev> Psi - a client I used to develop, and Swift - a client I develop now.
[17:23:42] <test911> by the way, whats the future of XMPP/Jabber? Is it going to stay here for a while? is it worth going ahead with it?
[17:23:52] <test911> I use PSI at the moment as well
[17:24:15] <Kev> I know.
[17:24:27] <test911> how do I open a PGP secured connection between us, lets say
[17:24:33] <Kev> I don't think XMPP's going anywhere - it's an IETF starndard, used by lots of big names.
[17:24:47] <Kev> You'd need my key, and I don't have one imported at the moment.
[17:25:15] <test911> so, when both ends have keys imported, toggle encryption button becomes available?
[17:25:19] <Kev> Yes.
[17:25:23] <test911> I see
[17:25:30] <test911> where in PSi can I find SSL settings?
[17:25:40] <Kev> In the account setup.
[17:25:57] <test911> what figure shows that XMPP/Jabber is the most popular these days? If any?
[17:26:24] <Kev> The most popular what?
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[17:28:51] <test911> sorry I was disconnected, just tried to enable TLS
[17:28:58] <test911> it came with msg TLD unavailable
[17:29:02] <test911> TLS*
[17:29:14] <test911> most popular in IM Servers
[17:29:43] <Kev> I don't have any such figures.
[17:29:52] <test911> ok
[17:29:57] <Kev> I know it's the most used of the (two) standards-based ones.
[17:31:39] <test911> what are those zones?
[17:34:35] <test911> again, thanks for the answers. They been very important in my understanding of XMPP
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[17:35:48] <Kev> Those zones?
[17:36:55] <test911> sorry, didnt mean that :) You probably ment IRC and XMPP
[17:37:19] <Kev> I'm not counting IRC because it's a fairly different use case (channel only, rather than IM)
[17:37:30] <johnny> test911, google and facebook use it ..
[17:37:32] <Kev> I meant XMPP and SIMPLE - but I think SIMPLE is basically not used by anyone.
[17:37:33] <johnny> that's why
[17:37:39] <Kev> johnny: scroll up :)
[17:37:45] <test911> well, the servers itself has IM implementation as well
[17:37:45] <Kev> There's been a long conversation already ;)
[17:37:49] <test911> so what do you count then?
[17:37:54] <test911> johnny: I know
[17:38:02] <test911> ok Kev, got u
[17:38:08] <johnny> then why is this conversation still going Kev :)
[17:38:11] <johnny> haha
[17:40:08] <test911> do any of XMPP/Jabber client have GPG implemented inside them with static libraries?
[17:40:18] <test911> if anybody knows
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[17:45:39] <test911> and one question I forgot to ask: How does a person from one server send a message to another person on another server? Do those servers need to be linked somehow? I.E. what kind of connection characteristics exist between jabber.org and gmail.com XMPP servers?
[17:45:57] <Kev> If you think of it like email, you're not far wrong.
[17:46:14] <test911> thats what I thought
[17:46:18] <Kev> Except that there's identity checking and the like involved, and no relays etc.
[17:46:50] <Kev> So yes, for you to talk to me, you go c2s to your server, s2s to my server, c2s to me.
[17:47:04] <Kev> Unless you're in a MUC, in which case there's the MUC service involved as well.
[17:47:16] <test911> so, jabber.org knows how identify gmail.com? It is in allowed servers list somewhere?
[17:47:30] <Kev> They're not preconfigured peering agreements.
[17:47:41] <Kev> It just looks it up in DNS and connects to it.
[17:48:44] <test911> okay, so that means one may create a server to handle lots of clients and they all can chat in lets say this channel, freely
[17:48:57] <Kev> So jabber.org wants to talk to gmail - jabber.org looks up gmail in dns, and connects. Gmail then either checks the TLS cert that jabber.org presents, or looks up jabber.org in DNS, connects and asks "Is that you?"
[17:49:03] <Kev> Yes.
[17:49:11] <Kev> As indeed I've done.
[17:49:31] <test911> what have you done?
[17:49:33] <Kev> I'd not heard of darkdna.net before I saw your JID, for example, but you can chat with jabber.org fine.
[17:49:40] <Kev> Set up my own server from which I can join this room.
[17:49:59] <test911> I see
[17:50:05] <MattJ> Me too
[17:50:28] <Kev> There's nothing special about jabber.org it's just another node on the network.
[17:50:45] <test911> yeah I inderstand
[17:51:12] <test911> are there any XMPP client API's?
[17:51:16] <Kev> Lots.
[17:51:33] <test911> ok
[17:52:17] <Kev> Swiften (http://gitorious.org/swift) for C++, for example, SleekXMPP for Python, and lots more for those, and lots of other languages.
[17:52:29] <test911> anything for C only?
[17:52:40] <test911> OK
[17:52:42] <test911> thats great
[17:52:49] <MattJ> I used libstrophe in C
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[17:53:41] <test911> is GPG implementation in PSI good enough?
[17:53:51] <test911> for critical security applications?
[17:54:11] <Kev> If you have a critical security application, you'll want to do a security audit of whatever you use.
[17:54:17] <Kev> I can't judge that for you :)
[17:54:25] <test911> I see
[17:56:26] <test911> you mentioned that alternative security API is in works for XMPP, how about US law requiring any kind of encryption to include a backdoor to be utilized by GOV?
[17:57:17] <Kev> XMPP doesn't define APIs - only protocols.
[17:57:29] <Kev> Or the XSF rather, I should say.
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[18:00:44] <johnny> test911, which exact law are you referring to?
[18:01:16] <johnny> i use linux, i have yet to hear of a proven backdoor in any of the core libs
[18:02:41] <johnny> as far as i know, the only law most people are concerned about in regards to encryption are the export restrictions
[18:03:08] <johnny> pretty pointless law nowadays tho
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[18:06:19] <Zash> export restrictions? crypto isn't in those anymore afaik?
[18:07:01] <loxs> how bad an idea is it to transport http over xmpp (which is itself transported to the browser via BOSH)
[18:07:43] <MattJ> You could try HTTP over TCP over XMPP, it works surprisingly well :P
[18:08:09] <loxs> MattJ: It's a browser game :)
[18:08:15] <MattJ> http://code.google.com/p/prosody-modules/wiki/mod_tcpproxy
[18:08:53] <johnny> i just want to know about this law that test911 is referring to
[18:09:44] <johnny> considered websockets loxs ?
[18:10:28] <loxs> johnny: what about websockets?
[18:10:54] <johnny> might be better than doing what you're thinking about doing
[18:11:06] <johnny> then again, bosh isn't necessarily restricted to xmpp either iirc
[18:11:10] <MattJ> Websockets requires a websocket server
[18:11:14] <johnny> MattJ, you have onee
[18:11:15] <MattJ> and a websocket browser
[18:11:17] <johnny> don't you?
[18:11:24] <MattJ> Yes, but they keep changing the specs :)
[18:11:28] <MattJ> It needs updating now
[18:11:30] <johnny> ah.. ok so not a good idea then
[18:11:34] <johnny> yet..
[18:11:38] <johnny> MattJ, go away
[18:11:44] <MattJ> Yes, I'm not here
[18:11:47] <MattJ> I remember now
[18:12:22] <johnny> test911, as far as i know, there is no such law.. but i'd love to be proven wrong..
[18:12:43] <johnny> well.. really i'd hate to be proven wrong,:)
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[18:22:45] <test911> sorry I been away
[18:23:21] <test911> johnny: is it not in US Patriotic Act signed in 2001?
[18:23:27] <johnny> no
[18:23:28] <johnny> it's not
[18:24:02] <johnny> otherwise using linux would be illegal in the us.. and it's not currently that way
[18:24:08] <johnny> altho who knows what acta might bring :(
[18:25:24] <johnny> currently the only thing that is truly illegal are related to multimedia .. like unlicensed dvd encoding/decoding
[18:26:16] <johnny> companies just bundle legal licensed dvd decoding/encoding software when selling their various netbooks and other machines
[18:26:52] <test911> ;]]]
[18:27:41] <test911> i dont remember what I read regarding US laws and cryptography the other day, as I am not from US myself
[18:29:17] <Zash> http://xkcd.com/504/
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[18:39:01] <johnny> hah
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[18:52:35] <Florob> !xep forms
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[19:06:49] <notKev> Data forms?
[19:06:50] <notKev> Xep 4
[19:08:12] <Zash> "worklows"
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[19:25:52] <markus-kohlhase@jabber.org> Hi folks!
[19:27:06] <markus-kohlhase@jabber.org> I' looking for people to discuss about building applications based on xmpp. Is this the right place?
[19:27:21] <Zash> It is :)
[19:27:30] <markus-kohlhase@jabber.org> wow great :)
[19:30:50] <MattJ> Congratulations, you passed level 1! :)
[19:32:03] <markus-kohlhase@jabber.org> ok, my question: I'm going to build a web application that uses strophe.js, jquery, openfire etc. This works pretty good so far... but now I'd like to integrate a persistence layer (e.g. couchdb). So how can I do this? It would be great if the authentication is done by the xmpp-server.
[19:32:30] <MattJ> It would be up to Openfire to consult couchdb then
[19:32:42] <notKev> Depending what you want to persist.
[19:33:28] <markus-kohlhase@jabber.org> I'd like to persist some simple objects used by the application
[19:33:46] <notKev> So you could use pubsub or such?
[19:34:24] <Zash> If the data isn't to be shared you could use server storage
[19:34:52] <Zash> Private XML Storage
[19:34:55] <markus-kohlhase@jabber.org> I guess pubsub is not suited .... I need to create, update and delete objects
[19:35:21] <notKev> markus-kohlhase@jabber.org: that doesn't preclude pubsub on its own.
[19:35:32] <markus-kohlhase@jabber.org> hmm...
[19:35:52] <notKev> You can just use pubsub as a generic datastore if you don't want pubsubbyness.
[19:36:25] <markus-kohlhase@jabber.org> sounds interesting :)
[19:38:15] <markus-kohlhase@jabber.org> and what, if I'd like to save little binary data?
[19:38:24] <notKev> You'd have to base64 it.
[19:38:35] <notKev> Or store it out of band.
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[19:40:01] <Zash> or some layer that takes base64ed binary and dumps on couchdb or whatever
[19:40:08] <Aidan> Can someone help me with something?
[19:40:44] <Aidan> In XMPP SASL authentication, what has to be sent (Basse64 encoded inner text) to the server in the "response" stanza?
[19:41:21] <MattJ> Aidan, that depends on the mechanism
[19:41:35] <MattJ> and the mechanisms are documented in RFCs
[19:41:37] <markus-kohlhase@jabber.org> Using pubsub sound almost too easy ;-) It would mean, I don't need an extra database any more ;-)
[19:41:49] <Aidan> PLAIN and DIGEST-MD5 are the two main ones it seems, right?
[19:42:14] <MattJ> Yes, though SCRAM-SHA-1 is hopefully going to be replacing DIGEST-MD5 in many implementations
[19:42:15] <notKev> SCRAM is the main one.
[19:42:22] <Aidan> Oh cool
[19:42:31] <notKev> DIGEST and PLAIN were the main ones in the old version of the spec (2004)
[19:42:36] <Aidan> I see
[19:43:08] <Aidan> So, http://xmpp.org/rfcs/rfc3920.html#sasl shows <response xmlns='urn:ietf:params:xml:ns:xmpp-sasl'>[base64 text here]</response>
[19:43:12] <MattJ> I'd implement PLAIN and SCRAM-SHA-1 if I were you, and starting a new client/library
[19:43:34] <Aidan> Ok
[19:43:57] <notKev> +1
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[19:44:32] <markus-kohlhase@jabber.org> So, are there any disadvantages using pubsub instead an extra database?
[19:45:51] <Zash> markus-kohlhase@jabber.org: you don't need an extra database :D
[19:46:06] <markus-kohlhase@jabber.org> wow, great
[19:47:29] <markus-kohlhase@jabber.org> If you are right, it spares a lot of time :)
[19:47:45] <markus-kohlhase@jabber.org> ok, I'll try it :)
[19:47:53] <markus-kohlhase@jabber.org> thank you!
[19:47:57] <Zash> but, take a look at http://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0060.html and http://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0049.html
[19:49:23] <lastsky> very interesting, what is the difference between users and participants in M-Link muc? i can see pubsub and composing events from markus-kohlhase@jabber.org in the room...
[19:50:03] <MattJ> He's probably using Empathy/Telepathy
[19:50:04] <markus-kohlhase@jabber.org> ok, I'll have a look at them
[19:50:18] <MattJ> It does both of those things
[19:50:30] <markus-kohlhase@jabber.org> yes, it's empathy ;-=)
[19:51:05] <Zash> whatup with "role has ben set to none"
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[19:51:40] <MattJ> Zash, something we're trying to figure out :)
[19:51:42] <markus-kohlhase@jabber.org> so could you give me a hint, which xep could be appropriate for my usage?
[19:53:29] <owcza> MattJ: thanks!!! that`s an answer
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[20:09:00] <flossy> an other question: how can I achieve to modify and add additional information the the users?
[20:09:55] <johnny> other than what is included in vcards?
[20:10:10] <johnny> /me wonders what is the fate of user profiles in the future
[20:10:17] <johnny> last i recall it was deferred
[20:10:20] <johnny> !xep user profiles
[20:10:26] <johnny> !xep profiles
[20:10:39] <johnny> ah.. hal is dead
[20:10:47] <waqas> User Profiles too.
[20:11:05] <johnny> because?
[20:11:13] <johnny> imo vcard isn't quite enough
[20:11:31] <waqas> Looked at the new vcard stuff?
[20:12:25] <flossy> do you mean xep-0153?
[20:12:27] <johnny> ah.. did'nt know there was new vcard stuff :)
[20:12:39] <johnny> uggh.. summit is on the first two days of oscon again
[20:12:57] <MattJ> That used to happen with FOSDEM...
[20:13:00] <johnny> /me was hoping that it might be later
[20:13:15] <johnny> then i could actually make it there :)
[20:13:27] <johnny> or at least make it there by preferred transportation..
[20:14:19] <johnny> uggh.. flying sucks
[20:14:21] <johnny> also it costs money
[20:14:23] <johnny> :(
[20:15:58] <MattJ> Just spare a thought for those of us who can't go at all :)
[20:16:29] <johnny> the real problem is that i am already booked to go to HOPE in NYC :(
[20:16:52] <flossy> so, lets say we have a normal user user@domain.tld and an admin user admin@domain.tld can the admin now modify the informations of user@domain.tld?
[20:20:32] <flossy> ...or how do you manage your users in a xmpp web based application?
[20:22:01] <MattJ> Most servers have the concept of admin accounts
[20:23:30] <flossy> sure, but they can not modify user data remotely or even add additional informations
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[22:16:34] <flossy> pubsub items can be created and deleted but not updated, is that correct?
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[22:21:06] <Link Mauve> flossy, if you send a new item to the same node with the same ID, it should override the previous and resend a notification to subscribers.
[22:21:48] <flossy> ok, that makes sense
[22:21:51] <flossy> thank you!
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[01:39:09] <Aidan> Would you recommend using the RFCs (http://xmpp.org/rfcs/) or the Internet-Drafts (http://xmpp.org/internet-drafts/) for reference while programming an XMPP library? The drafts say they'll expire in October, but the RFCs list soon-to-be obselete material...
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