Logs for jdev

Show join/part/nick changes:

[05:03:19] * lastsky joined the chat.
[05:05:13] * john joined the chat.
[05:27:48] * waqas joined the chat.
[05:27:48] * waqas joined the chat.
[05:45:43] * nabatt left the chat.
[05:50:52] * johnny left the chat.
[05:51:54] * johnny joined the chat.
[05:56:17] * john left the chat.
[05:59:16] * teo left the chat.
[05:59:17] * teo joined the chat.
[06:08:14] * lastsky left the chat.
[06:08:16] * lastsky joined the chat.
[06:14:23] * johnny left the chat.
[06:15:24] * johnny joined the chat.
[06:27:05] * johnny left the chat.
[06:31:07] * johnny joined the chat.
[06:36:05] * johnny left the chat.
[06:37:11] * johnny joined the chat.
[06:47:20] * Treebilou joined the chat.
[06:56:17] * mcepl joined the chat.
[06:56:53] * johnny left the chat.
[07:06:49] * Guus joined the chat.
[07:07:08] * nabatt joined the chat.
[07:07:10] * nabatt joined the chat.
[07:09:15] * Guus left the chat.
[07:11:08] * Tobias joined the chat.
[07:17:06] * tkoski joined the chat.
[07:19:21] * ermine joined the chat.
[07:29:47] * john joined the chat.
[07:44:51] * johnny joined the chat.
[07:47:26] * awclinford joined the chat.
[07:47:26] * awclinford joined the chat.
[07:47:27] * awclinford left the chat.
[07:48:01] * awclinford joined the chat.
[07:53:01] * awclinford joined the chat.
[07:58:01] * awclinford joined the chat.
[07:58:52] * mcepl left the chat.
[08:03:00] * awclinford joined the chat.
[08:07:30] * teo left the chat.
[08:07:31] * teo joined the chat.
[08:08:01] * awclinford joined the chat.
[08:12:20] * teo left the chat.
[08:12:53] * Guus joined the chat.
[08:13:01] * awclinford joined the chat.
[08:14:38] * petermount joined the chat.
[08:18:00] * awclinford joined the chat.
[08:19:55] * teo joined the chat.
[08:20:13] * dax joined the chat.
[08:23:00] * awclinford joined the chat.
[08:23:33] * dax left the chat.
[08:23:48] * dax joined the chat.
[08:23:48] * dax joined the chat.
[08:23:51] * dax joined the chat.
[08:25:15] * Guus left the chat.
[08:26:01] * Guus joined the chat.
[08:26:15] * Guus left the chat.
[08:28:00] * awclinford joined the chat.
[08:28:41] * Kalyan joined the chat.
[08:31:33] * dax left the chat.
[08:31:50] * mlundblad_laptop joined the chat.
[08:31:51] * dax joined the chat.
[08:33:00] * awclinford joined the chat.
[08:34:43] * Kev left the chat.
[08:38:00] * awclinford joined the chat.
[08:42:17] * Kev joined the chat.
[08:43:00] * awclinford joined the chat.
[08:43:38] * Guus joined the chat.
[08:46:15] * Guus left the chat.
[08:48:00] * awclinford joined the chat.
[08:52:59] * awclinford joined the chat.
[08:56:24] * Guus joined the chat.
[08:57:59] * awclinford joined the chat.
[09:02:58] * awclinford joined the chat.
[09:04:53] * awclinford joined the chat.
[09:05:17] * awclinford joined the chat.
[09:05:23] * awclinford left the chat.
[09:07:58] * awclinford joined the chat.
[09:12:58] * awclinford joined the chat.
[09:17:58] * awclinford joined the chat.
[09:22:58] * awclinford joined the chat.
[09:22:58] * awclinford left the chat.
[09:27:57] * awclinford joined the chat.
[09:28:28] * Link Mauve joined the chat.
[09:32:58] * awclinford joined the chat.
[09:37:57] * awclinford joined the chat.
[09:42:57] * awclinford joined the chat.
[09:47:57] * awclinford joined the chat.
[09:49:32] * luca tagliaferri joined the chat.
[09:51:18] * Tobias left the chat.
[09:52:57] * awclinford joined the chat.
[09:53:04] * awclinford left the chat.
[09:57:57] * awclinford joined the chat.
[10:02:57] * awclinford joined the chat.
[10:05:05] * awclinford43024 joined the chat.
[10:05:05] * awclinford43024 left the chat.
[10:05:05] * awclinford37088 joined the chat.
[10:05:05] * awclinford37088 left the chat.
[10:05:05] * awclinford49154 joined the chat.
[10:05:05] * awclinford49154 joined the chat.
[10:05:05] * awclinford49154 left the chat.
[10:05:05] * awclinford left the chat.
[10:06:53] * awclinford49154 joined the chat.
[10:11:53] * awclinford49154 joined the chat.
[10:16:53] * awclinford49154 joined the chat.
[10:18:35] * MattJ joined the chat.
[10:21:53] * awclinford49154 joined the chat.
[10:23:41] * luca tagliaferri left the chat.
[10:23:57] * luca tagliaferri joined the chat.
[10:26:32] * awclinford49154 left the chat.
[10:28:40] * awclinford joined the chat.
[10:28:40] * awclinford joined the chat.
[10:28:40] * awclinford left the chat.
[10:28:40] * awclinford joined the chat.
[10:28:40] * awclinford left the chat.
[10:29:35] * awclinford joined the chat.
[10:34:35] * awclinford joined the chat.
[10:34:41] * Tobias joined the chat.
[10:34:41] * awclinford left the chat.
[10:39:34] * awclinford joined the chat.
[10:44:35] * awclinford joined the chat.
[10:48:42] * Xificurk joined the chat.
[10:49:34] * awclinford joined the chat.
[10:54:34] * awclinford joined the chat.
[10:59:34] * awclinford joined the chat.
[11:04:33] * awclinford joined the chat.
[11:09:33] * awclinford joined the chat.
[11:09:41] * awclinford left the chat.
[11:14:33] * awclinford joined the chat.
[11:18:51] * nick@lupine.me.uk joined the chat.
[11:19:33] * awclinford joined the chat.
[11:24:33] * awclinford joined the chat.
[11:28:02] * luca tagliaferri left the chat.
[11:28:13] * luca tagliaferri joined the chat.
[11:29:32] * awclinford joined the chat.
[11:34:32] * awclinford joined the chat.
[11:39:32] * awclinford joined the chat.
[11:44:32] * awclinford joined the chat.
[11:49:31] * awclinford joined the chat.
[11:51:37] * deryni left the chat.
[11:53:11] * Link Mauve left the chat.
[11:54:31] * awclinford joined the chat.
[11:55:36] * Link Mauve joined the chat.
[11:59:31] * awclinford joined the chat.
[12:02:28] * Kev left the chat.
[12:02:34] * Kev joined the chat.
[12:04:31] * awclinford joined the chat.
[12:09:30] * awclinford joined the chat.
[12:14:30] * awclinford joined the chat.
[12:16:47] * awclinford joined the chat.
[12:19:30] * awclinford joined the chat.
[12:24:29] * awclinford joined the chat.
[12:24:34] * nabatt left the chat.
[12:24:34] * awclinford left the chat.
[12:29:30] * awclinford joined the chat.
[12:34:29] * awclinford joined the chat.
[12:34:42] * awclinford left the chat.
[12:39:29] * awclinford joined the chat.
[12:44:29] * awclinford joined the chat.
[12:48:50] * Florob joined the chat.
[12:49:29] * awclinford joined the chat.
[12:52:36] * deryni joined the chat.
[12:54:28] * awclinford joined the chat.
[12:59:28] * awclinford joined the chat.
[12:59:40] * awclinford left the chat.
[13:01:04] * awclinford joined the chat.
[13:04:28] * awclinford joined the chat.
[13:04:44] * deryni left the chat.
[13:04:44] * awclinford left the chat.
[13:09:28] * awclinford joined the chat.
[13:14:28] * awclinford joined the chat.
[13:19:27] * awclinford joined the chat.
[13:20:06] * Tobias left the chat.
[13:24:27] * awclinford joined the chat.
[13:29:27] * awclinford joined the chat.
[13:34:27] * awclinford joined the chat.
[13:36:21] * deryni joined the chat.
[13:39:27] * awclinford joined the chat.
[13:44:23] * Kalyan left the chat.
[13:44:26] * Kalyan joined the chat.
[13:44:27] * awclinford joined the chat.
[13:49:27] * awclinford joined the chat.
[13:54:27] * awclinford joined the chat.
[13:58:32] * Tobias joined the chat.
[13:59:27] * awclinford joined the chat.
[14:04:27] * awclinford joined the chat.
[14:09:26] * awclinford joined the chat.
[14:14:26] * awclinford joined the chat.
[14:15:23] * Kalyan left the chat.
[14:15:44] * Kalyan joined the chat.
[14:19:09] * Zash joined the chat.
[14:19:26] * awclinford joined the chat.
[14:24:26] * awclinford joined the chat.
[14:29:25] * awclinford joined the chat.
[14:29:26] * awclinford left the chat.
[14:32:45] * Link Mauve left the chat.
[14:34:09] * Kalyan left the chat.
[14:34:24] * Kalyan joined the chat.
[14:34:26] * awclinford joined the chat.
[14:35:19] * Florob left the chat.
[14:35:23] * Florob joined the chat.
[14:35:54] * Florob joined the chat.
[14:35:54] * Florob joined the chat.
[14:36:57] * jprieur joined the chat.
[14:36:59] * jprieur left the chat.
[14:39:26] * awclinford joined the chat.
[14:44:25] * awclinford joined the chat.
[14:49:26] * awclinford joined the chat.
[14:53:34] * nick@lupine.me.uk joined the chat.
[14:54:26] * awclinford joined the chat.
[14:56:54] * nick@lupine.me.uk joined the chat.
[14:59:25] * awclinford joined the chat.
[15:01:15] * awclinford joined the chat.
[15:01:20] * awclinford left the chat.
[15:02:03] * Kalyan left the chat.
[15:02:34] * Kalyan joined the chat.
[15:04:26] * awclinford joined the chat.
[15:09:01] * awclinford joined the chat.
[15:09:25] * awclinford joined the chat.
[15:10:56] * awclinford joined the chat.
[15:11:39] * Kalyan left the chat.
[15:11:57] * Kalyan joined the chat.
[15:14:22] <deryni> So I just read the "Syncing legacy contact list" thread and I feel like I'm missing something. Why would a gateway want to add the legacy contacts to the xmpp roster? Is there a reason other than so that clients display them properly (which they may not otherwise)?
[15:14:25] * awclinford joined the chat.
[15:15:32] <Kev> deryni: because nothing's going to work if your contacts aren't in your roster?
[15:15:32] * Kalyan left the chat.
[15:15:40] * Kalyan joined the chat.
[15:16:29] * awclinford left the chat.
[15:16:56] <deryni> I don't see why not other than that clients probably ignore presence from people not in the roster. It is a MAY in the xep.
[15:17:13] * huni joined the chat.
[15:17:13] * huni left the chat.
[15:17:13] * huni joined the chat.
[15:17:13] * huni left the chat.
[15:17:18] * huni joined the chat.
[15:17:18] * huni left the chat.
[15:17:18] * huni joined the chat.
[15:17:18] * huni left the chat.
[15:17:19] * huni joined the chat.
[15:17:19] * huni left the chat.
[15:17:57] * huni joined the chat.
[15:17:57] * huni left the chat.
[15:17:57] * huni joined the chat.
[15:17:57] * huni left the chat.
[15:18:43] * pihhan joined the chat.
[15:20:05] <Kev> deryni: no client's going to just start showing people because you receive presence unless they're in the roster.
[15:20:31] <Kev> So you could (assuming you don't block messages from people not in your roster, and lots of people do) have a message-only session with a transport, but that seems pointless.
[15:21:46] * Kalyan left the chat.
[15:25:17] <deryni> I see no reason a client couldn't do that, though I agree a general-use client would be rather insane to do so in general. But that's not really the point. I guess the problem is the clients handling of the xep-0144 suggestions here then.
[15:25:39] * Zash left the chat.
[15:26:05] <deryni> I'm trying to understand where the problem being addressed was coming from in the first place. I see no point to having legacy roster entries in the XMPP roster stored on the server.
[15:26:08] <deryni> Is there one?
[15:26:32] <Kev> Yes - in that it's the only way to do it at the moment.
[15:26:43] <Kev> No in that they don't belong in the xmpp account's roster.
[15:27:07] <Kev> Thus the discussion about iq:roster on the transport instead of forcing them into iq:roster on the server.
[15:27:21] <deryni> Right, I understand the remote roster talk. I liked it when it came up last time also.
[15:27:39] <Kev> Yeah, I've just not found the spare time to write something up.
[15:28:16] <deryni> I guess what I don't understand is why a way of marking an 0144 entry as temporary wouldn't solve the problem. Since it would tell the client not to trigger an iq:roster set in response to it but just expect (and display) presence.
[15:28:42] <deryni> Since a well-behaved gateway isn't managing the roster itself anymore as I understand it, right?
[15:29:08] <Kev> Then you'd have to do full roster item exchange every time you logged on, which doesn't sound much fun.
[15:29:24] <Kev> And how do you add a new contact to the legacy account, if not by adding it to your roster?
[15:29:26] * Zash joined the chat.
[15:29:38] <deryni> The post indicated that a full sync is what's happening now anyway, didn't it?
[15:29:42] <Kev> No.
[15:29:52] <deryni> And yes, I realize it doesn't solve everything but it helps
[15:30:06] <Kev> Guus suggested that as an option, but I think it's abhorrent.
[15:30:07] <deryni> Without the out-of-band caching at least.
[15:30:22] <deryni> How does the gateway know which contacts you already have?
[15:30:27] <Kev> It sent them to you.
[15:30:48] <deryni> Ok, so an oob cache again.
[15:30:55] <Kev> Yes.
[15:34:07] <Kev> Remote iq:roster is undoubtedly the right solution (to this and several other things).
[15:34:34] <deryni> How is the client going to handle adds to a remote iq:roster? From a UI perspective.
[15:34:59] <Kev> Presumably when adding, asking the user which roster to add them to.
[15:35:11] <deryni> That sounds horrible.
[15:35:12] <Kev> "Do you want to add an XMPP contact or an MSN contact"?
[15:35:54] <Kev> You have to ask the question anyway, to perform the JID escaping relevant to the transport.
[15:36:27] <deryni> I'm not sure I follow that.
[15:37:54] <Kev> If the user wants to add 'blah@service.tld', you need to ask the user if it's an xmpp contact, or something to add through a transport (and which transport), so you can then perform the escaping to turn it into blah\40service.tld@sometransport.server.tld or whatever.
[15:38:30] <Kev> You have to get that 'add' command to the transport somehow - the remote roster doesn't change that.
[15:40:48] <deryni> Hm, so then going back to your comment before about how do you add a contact to the transport without adding them to the roster. It would seem those are separate ideas even now, so why do you need to involve the xmpp roster at all?
[15:41:21] <Kev> It's not a separate idea at the moment - it's the presence subscription request that causes the transport to add it.
[15:42:48] <deryni> So clients currently ask the protocol question when adding a (potentially transported) contact?
[15:42:59] <Kev> Yes.
[15:43:13] * waqas left the chat.
[15:43:13] * waqas joined the chat.
[15:43:13] * waqas joined the chat.
[15:43:29] <deryni> Do the escaping requirements really change based on target transport? Aren't the escaping rules an xmpp thing?
[15:44:04] <Kev> the escaping rules to create the node change based upon whether a transport does it the right way or the wrong way - afaik only Spectrum does it the right way.
[15:44:30] <Kev> But even assuming everyone does proper JID escaping, you need to know what transport is the target to use as the host constructing the JID.
[15:45:20] <deryni> Depends on how you ask the user for the remote users jid I guess.
[15:46:26] <deryni> yahoouser@yahootransport.server.tld certainly doesn't seem to need any extra questions, neither does msnuser@hotmail.com@msnt.server.tld unless I've missed something (though that latter one may require clients to support escaping/correct jid parsing).
[15:48:28] <Kev> How does the user know that they need to enter msnuser@hotmail.com@msnt.server.tld?
[15:50:19] <deryni> Presumably it would be explained in the transport setup documentation they followed (either out-of-band or inline). Without it I don't see how they could add anyone at all. Unless clients have separate 'Add XMPP User' and 'Add Legacy/Transport User' dialogs I'm not sure how anyone is ok with always having a 'protocol' selection in the 'Add User' dialog.
[15:51:57] <deryni> Extrapolating to msnuser@hotmail.com@msnt.server.tld from the known fact that the legacy username is 'msnuser@hotmail.com' and the transport is 'msnt.server.tld' seems transparent to me (which doesn't mean everyone will get it but some number of people likely will).
[15:55:19] * Guus left the chat.
[16:09:24] * jkhii joined the chat.
[16:11:00] * draco joined the chat.
[16:12:08] * john left the chat.
[16:14:31] * draco left the chat.
[16:14:52] * dax left the chat.
[16:26:38] * Florob left the chat.
[16:37:19] * petermount left the chat.
[16:40:26] * dax joined the chat.
[16:43:22] * tkoski left the chat.
[16:44:50] * mlundblad_laptop left the chat.
[16:53:43] * awclinford joined the chat.
[16:53:43] * awclinford joined the chat.
[16:53:44] * awclinford left the chat.
[16:56:28] * awclinford joined the chat.
[17:01:29] * awclinford joined the chat.
[17:01:30] * john joined the chat.
[17:02:03] * john left the chat.
[17:02:10] * teo left the chat.
[17:02:11] * teo joined the chat.
[17:06:30] * awclinford joined the chat.
[17:11:24] * luca tagliaferri left the chat.
[17:11:30] * awclinford joined the chat.
[17:15:32] * nabatt joined the chat.
[17:15:36] * nabatt joined the chat.
[17:16:31] * awclinford joined the chat.
[17:21:32] * awclinford joined the chat.
[17:25:10] * teo left the chat.
[17:25:50] * Zash left the chat.
[17:26:32] * awclinford joined the chat.
[17:30:50] * lastsky left the chat.
[17:31:33] * awclinford joined the chat.
[17:36:33] * awclinford joined the chat.
[17:41:34] * awclinford joined the chat.
[17:44:46] * Link Mauve joined the chat.
[17:46:35] * awclinford joined the chat.
[17:51:36] * awclinford joined the chat.
[17:56:37] * awclinford joined the chat.
[17:57:33] * johnny left the chat.
[17:58:41] * johnny joined the chat.
[18:01:37] * awclinford joined the chat.
[18:06:37] * awclinford joined the chat.
[18:10:58] * teo joined the chat.
[18:11:03] * dax left the chat.
[18:11:38] * awclinford joined the chat.
[18:16:39] * awclinford joined the chat.
[18:16:59] * teo left the chat.
[18:17:12] * Guus joined the chat.
[18:17:50] * teo joined the chat.
[18:21:40] * awclinford joined the chat.
[18:26:40] * awclinford joined the chat.
[18:31:40] * awclinford joined the chat.
[18:31:45] * awclinford left the chat.
[18:36:40] * awclinford joined the chat.
[18:39:38] * Florob joined the chat.
[18:41:40] * awclinford joined the chat.
[18:42:46] * awclinford left the chat.
[18:47:59] * teo left the chat.
[18:48:00] * teo joined the chat.
[19:12:12] * pihhan left the chat.
[19:27:39] * ermine left the chat.
[19:29:32] * waqas left the chat.
[19:29:36] * waqas joined the chat.
[19:29:39] * waqas joined the chat.
[19:30:04] * smoku joined the chat.
[19:31:43] * Beny joined the chat.
[19:32:21] * smoku left the chat.
[19:32:32] * smoku joined the chat.
[19:37:59] * Beny left the chat.
[19:44:36] * steve.kille joined the chat.
[19:45:46] * steve.kille left the chat.
[19:49:12] * teo left the chat.
[19:49:13] * teo joined the chat.
[19:52:12] * teo left the chat.
[19:52:21] * teo joined the chat.
[19:54:56] <MattJ> !xep 45
[19:56:32] * MattJ left the chat.
[19:56:50] * MattJ joined the chat.
[19:59:33] * teo left the chat.
[19:59:34] * teo joined the chat.
[20:04:24] * Kalyan joined the chat.
[20:05:40] <Kalyan> is there a XEP to transfer a file to all the member in a MUC?
[20:17:41] * Kalyan left the chat.
[20:17:56] * Kalyan joined the chat.
[20:18:16] * Asterix left the chat.
[20:24:42] * waqas left the chat.
[20:25:17] * waqas joined the chat.
[20:27:48] * waqas joined the chat.
[20:27:52] * waqas joined the chat.
[20:37:33] * Kalyan left the chat.
[20:37:48] * Kalyan joined the chat.
[20:39:03] * tofu joined the chat.
[20:42:36] * Tobias left the chat.
[20:46:57] * Asterix joined the chat.
[20:48:12] * teo left the chat.
[20:48:13] * teo joined the chat.
[20:49:36] * waqas left the chat.
[20:50:15] * smoku left the chat.
[20:50:18] * smoku joined the chat.
[20:53:47] * waqas joined the chat.
[20:53:52] * waqas joined the chat.
[21:31:27] * Kalyan left the chat.
[21:31:44] * Kalyan joined the chat.
[21:31:51] * Treebilou left the chat.
[21:43:15] * Asterix left the chat.
[21:45:31] * Tobias joined the chat.
[21:47:51] * Guus left the chat.
[22:03:05] * Kalyan left the chat.
[22:03:13] * jkhii left the chat.
[22:11:03] * deryni left the chat.
[22:21:56] * Zash joined the chat.
[22:39:22] * Neustradamus left the chat.
[22:40:23] * Neustradamus joined the chat.
[22:41:06] * smoku left the chat.
[22:50:17] * Tobias left the chat.
[22:58:51] * Zash left the chat.
[22:59:55] * johnny left the chat.
[23:00:11] * tkoski joined the chat.
[23:10:23] * Link Mauve left the chat.
[23:15:22] * tkoski left the chat.
[23:15:28] * tkoski joined the chat.
[00:16:55] * deryni joined the chat.
[00:22:37] * johnny joined the chat.
[00:33:59] * Florob left the chat.
[01:26:53] * evilotto left the chat.
[02:47:28] * MattJ left the chat.
[02:53:45] * johnny left the chat.
[03:29:24] * johnny joined the chat.
[03:57:42] * dbanes joined the chat.
[04:07:26] * tofu left the chat.
[04:07:33] * tofu joined the chat.
[04:07:53] * tofu joined the chat.
[04:07:53] * tofu joined the chat.
[04:07:53] * tofu joined the chat.
[04:07:53] * tofu joined the chat.
[04:07:53] * tofu joined the chat.
[04:07:53] * tofu joined the chat.
[04:07:53] * tofu joined the chat.
[04:07:53] * tofu joined the chat.
[04:07:53] * tofu joined the chat.