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[12:46:54] <Guus> Hi gang. Does anyone happen to have an estimate or measurement on how often, on average, an IM client sends out a presence state update in a particular time interval?
[12:47:11] <Guus> I know this is hopelessly generic, but I got to start somewhere :)
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[12:48:33] <Guus> I'm looking for data that limits to changes in availability (available, unavailable, xa, away, etc) only, but I'll take numbers that include subscription, caps and other identifiers if available. :)
[12:50:35] <Kev> I can get that for you, roughly, hang on.
[12:50:46] <Kev> !uptime jabber.org
[12:50:46] <xepbot> jabber.org has been running for 0 days, 20 hours and 10 minutes
[12:51:15] <Kev> There have been 11500370 presence stanzas routed by jabber.org in that time.
[12:54:35] <Zash> Kev: How many users have been active during that?
[12:54:47] <Kev> let's say an average of 13k at any one time.
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[12:56:11] <Zash> So, something like 1k presence per user and day then :)
[12:57:15] <Kev> Or just less than one presence a minute.
[12:58:08] <waqas> Kev: And numbers for messages and iq?
[12:58:34] <Kev> 2022486, 11631569 respectively.
[12:58:35] <Zash> 1 stanza routed = 1 stanza recived and broadcasted to interested parties?
[12:59:05] <Kev> Zash: I believe it's when a stanza is routed - so either inbound on c2s or s2s or outbound on c2s or s2s. I'd have to check.
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[13:01:52] <Guus> ah, excellent!
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[13:02:03] <Guus> do you have data on which of those were subscriptions?
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[13:03:22] <Guus> 1 presence stanza per minute, sounds credible
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[13:03:37] <Guus> I'm surprised by the amount of IQ stanzas
[13:04:16] <Guus> For some reason, I was under the impression that presence generically is ~70% of the data on an IM network
[13:04:25] <Guus> dunno where I got that though :)
[13:04:48] <Kev> That's not what we see at jabber.org.
[13:05:16] <Guus> safe to say that I was wrong :)
[13:05:24] <Kev> I've heard the same thing.
[13:05:31] <Guus> hmm
[13:05:41] <waqas> This might be some clients querying all contacts on login.
[13:05:45] <Kev> Right.
[13:05:46] <waqas> Psi does that :/
[13:05:52] <Kev> waqas: Really?
[13:06:00] <Kev> waqas: It's certainly a bug if it does, I had no idea.
[13:06:12] <Guus> disco#info, jabber:iq:version, stuff like that?
[13:06:23] <Kev> Psi shouldn't be querying either.
[13:06:33] <Kev> Well, it'll disco if it doesn't recognise the caps, but that's relatively rare.
[13:06:41] <Kev> waqas: what query is it doing?
[13:06:54] <waqas> Disco on bare JID of all contacts. Someone was having performance problems due to this with a huge shared roster.
[13:07:21] <Kev> That sounds very wrong, let's see.
[13:07:24] <Guus> Kev, do you happen to have an average size of Rosters as well?
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[13:07:48] <waqas> Not sure what Psi version they were using. I didn't verify it myself.
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[13:08:37] <Kev> waqas: I can't verify it on 0.14ish, and to the best of my knowledge it's never done that.
[13:09:23] <waqas> Kev: I'll ask them and try investigating.
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[13:33:37] <MattJ> .
[13:33:43] <MattJ> Kev knows all :)
[13:34:35] <MattJ> Restarting the server in a moment
[13:35:37] <Zash> :O
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[13:36:40] <jefferai> Kev: I've been asked to poke you
[13:36:47] <Kev> [14:34:36] <MattJ> Restarting the server in a moment
[13:36:55] <Kev> Be back in a few.
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[13:37:23] <Kev> jefferai: see you after the restart ;)
[13:37:40] <jefferai> heh
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[13:57:57] <MattJ> wb
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[13:59:34] <Zash> \o/
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[15:48:11] <jefferai> so how often does jabber.org get restarted?
[15:48:23] <jefferai> Kev: anyways, hi
[15:49:08] <MattJ> jefferai, as often as necessary :)
[15:49:25] <petermount> mattj: good answer ;-)
[15:49:47] <Kev> jefferai: Hi.
[15:49:52] <Kev> You wanted to poke me?
[15:50:53] <jefferai> yeah
[15:51:09] <jefferai> Apparently, Psi does a disco on ofline contacts in its roster
[15:51:27] <jefferai> which is why I was getting 3825 discos against my server every time I signed on
[15:51:29] <jefferai> :-|
[15:52:03] <Kev> I couldn't reproduce that when I tried earlier.
[15:52:08] <Kev> What version of Psi are you using?
[15:52:14] <jefferai> um,
[15:52:29] <jefferai> 0.14 I think
[15:52:42] <Kev> Can you pastebin a login session?
[15:52:52] <Kev> Or mail it to me or whatever.
[15:53:07] <jefferai> yeah, I'll have to re-populate the shared lists and turn on debugging on the server
[15:53:07] <jefferai> sec
[15:53:25] <Kev> Well, you don't need debugging on the server - Psi will give you xml fine.
[15:54:03] <jefferai> fair enough
[15:54:08] <jefferai> I'll turn on the xml console...
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[15:55:46] <jefferai> Kev: btw, if it's not Psi's fault, don't blame me, blame MattJ and waqas
[15:55:50] <jefferai> since they told me it was :-)
[15:57:02] <MattJ> 3000+ disco requests to contacts bare JIDs don't come from nowhere :)
[15:57:44] <waqas> Kev: Does Psi's repo have an online repo browser? I'm not sure what Bridged Analytics is and why it appears on http://git.psi-im.org/
[15:58:12] <Kev> waqas: Bridged Analytics is who donates the hosting.
[15:58:18] <waqas> Ah
[15:58:27] <Kev> Just use GitHub for browsing the code.
[15:59:36] <jefferai> Kev, MattJ: according to the XML console from Psi, the discos are coming from the server
[15:59:55] <jefferai> or rather, from other (offline) users
[15:59:56] <MattJ> jefferai, what's the top tag of one of them?
[16:00:21] <waqas> Whoa, could it be PEP?
[16:00:29] <MattJ> waqas, you know full well it could be PEP :)
[16:00:46] <MattJ> But I'm sure I didn't hallucinate that they were coming from the client in the logs I saw the other day :/
[16:00:51] <MattJ> It could be something wacky wrong
[16:00:55] <waqas> Heh
[16:01:25] <jefferai> http://conference.prosody.im:5280/pastebin/5eb916ac-f2ea-400a-bbb2-2a16b6eff88b
[16:01:27] <jefferai> check tha
[16:01:28] <jefferai> that
[16:01:51] <Kev> Oh, hey, the server's discoing the client, not the other way around.
[16:01:53] <Kev> Ahem.
[16:01:56] <Asterix> maybe it's an invisible user?
[16:01:57] <MattJ> ....right, then it's most definitely not Psi :)
[16:02:05] <Kev> Now then gentlemen, what did we learn? :)
[16:02:06] <MattJ> Asterix, no, it's from the user's bare JID
[16:02:20] <MattJ> Kev, not to read logs at 4AM in the morning? :)
[16:02:34] <jefferai> MattJ: I'll collect a fresh set of logs for you
[16:02:50] <waqas> Sorry Kev, we'll come up with something better later ^^
[16:02:55] <Kev> Ta.
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[16:23:19] <Zash> Kev: Could you pull some number on how many unique servers/hosts j.o have had s2s connections with?
[16:26:09] <Kev> I forget - it's something like 3-5k
[16:37:12] <johnny> that's a good question, would be nice to cross ref it with still active xmpp servers
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[17:00:24] <evilotto> there's no standard way (i.e., disco) to query what s2s connections a server has, is there?
[17:00:34] <Kev> Correct.
[17:01:31] <Kev> You can grab the info with netstat, mind.
[17:01:45] <Kev> Or at least, what machines it's connecting to to get s2s
[17:01:55] <Kev> Not the hosts that it services.
[17:02:41] <Zash> Unless you can get the server itself to tell you.. like prosody can :D
[17:02:54] <Kev> That doesn't make it a standard way.
[17:02:58] <Asterix> some servers has ad-hoc commands to do that for example
[17:03:11] <Kev> I expect most servers can be told to do it for you (M-Link can too)
[17:11:29] <Zash> they probably log it too
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[19:19:41] <jefferai> Kev: apparently psi supports XEP-0259
[19:20:08] <Kev> Really? :o
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[19:21:24] <jefferai> hm
[19:21:28] <jefferai> /me whacks MattJ
[19:21:44] <jefferai> Kev: if I right-click on myself and hit Execute Command, should I see *anything* show up?
[19:21:54] <jefferai> I just get a drop-down box that never populates with anything
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[19:27:08] <jefferai> I would expect to get a list of adhoc commands, similar to what I would get from Pidgin
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[19:27:10] <jefferai> or some such thing
[19:27:12] <notKev> jefferai: what makes you say Psi supports 259?
[19:27:26] <jefferai> [15:19:40] <jefferai> Kev: apparently psi supports XEP-0259 [15:20:07] <Kev> Really? :o [15:20:58] *** dax has left the room [15:21:24] <jefferai> hm [15:21:27] *jefferai whacks MattJ [15:21:43] <jefferai> Kev: if I right-click on myself and hit Execute Command, should I see *anything* show up? [15:21:53] <jefferai> I just get a drop-down box that never populates with anything
[19:27:29] <notKev> And yes, you should get a list of ad-hoc commands, assuming you've enabled them.
[19:27:42] <jefferai> yeah, they're enabled, and they show up with Pidgin
[19:28:05] <notKev> So in Pidgin, you see commands to run on your Psi client?
[19:28:18] <notKev> But if you show adhoc commands on your Psi resource with Psi, you don't see any?
[19:28:32] <jefferai> well, maybe I should separate these out
[19:28:49] <jefferai> on Pidgin, under Accounts, I can look at my account and see a list of adhoc commands -- uptime, ping, admin stuff, etc.
[19:28:57] <jefferai> although I don't see a way to do something on the Psi client
[19:29:22] <jefferai> on Psi, I see a way to do something on both the Pidgin and Psi clients, except the dropdowns for both appear empty, and don't see a way to do the admin adhoc commands
[19:30:06] <notKev> What Pidgin is showing you is probably not commands on your JID, but commands on the server.
[19:30:11] <jefferai> Ye
[19:30:12] <jefferai> Yes
[19:30:13] <deryni> Those (menu items in pidgin) aren't ad-hoc commands of your client, those are of the server. The message forwarding thing MattJ was talking about was commands your client would be exporting.
[19:30:16] <notKev> You can get at those in Psi through the disco window.
[19:30:23] <notKev> Right-click on the server.
[19:30:27] <jefferai> deryni: I'm aware -- I realize these are two separate questions
[19:30:29] <johnny> where are they in gajim?
[19:30:42] <jefferai> notKev: yeah...?
[19:31:36] <johnny> so, xmpp summit 2010 oscon? is it happening?
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[19:31:38] <jefferai> and then "Service Discovery"?
[19:31:54] <jefferai> ah
[19:31:57] <jefferai> Execute command
[19:32:13] <jefferai> I had expected them to be listed separately somehow, not to right-click on the server item in the discovery window
[19:32:13] <jefferai> ok
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[19:32:18] <jefferai> so that solves question 1
[19:32:46] <jefferai> question 2 is, I have two Psi instances running at different resources...but, although I can "execute command" on each, I get no options of anything to actually execute
[19:33:45] <notKev> Then you haven't enabled the adhoc commands on Psi.
[19:33:53] <jefferai> ah
[19:34:17] <jefferai> I do love Psi, but there are so many options it's difficult to make oneself pore through all the config pages
[19:34:22] <jefferai> I'll find it
[19:34:47] <johnny> MattJ, how does one do this in gajim? since gajim doesn't like self contacts
[19:34:58] <johnny> or fake self contacts anyways
[19:35:06] <jefferai> johnny: are you going to be at OSCON?
[19:35:08] <jefferai> /me will be there
[19:35:10] <notKev> jefferai: Well Swift is the antiPsi in that sense. No options at all ;)
[19:35:19] <jefferai> notKev: yeah, I'm aware...too little
[19:35:26] <johnny> uhmm.. i'm not paying for oscon itself.. it's impossible to justify by any sense of the word
[19:35:28] <Asterix> you can have a self contact on your own resource in Gajim too if you enable that in advanced option
[19:35:44] <johnny> Asterix, is it necessary to get the options they are talking about here?
[19:35:49] <johnny> like forward messages?
[19:35:52] <jefferai> I got my company to pay for it :-)
[19:35:55] <johnny> or does gajim just not have it?
[19:36:04] <johnny> jefferai, i'm self employed.. so my company isn't going to pay for it :)
[19:36:07] <johnny> hah :)
[19:36:10] <jefferai> ah, yeah
[19:36:13] <jefferai> I'd never pay for it myself
[19:40:26] <Asterix> Hajim has forward message
[19:40:46] <Asterix> when you connect with Gajim with a second resource, you see your first resource. right click -> execute commands
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[19:50:21] <jefferai> johnny: will you be in portland?
[19:50:36] <johnny> jefferai, perhaps..
[19:50:52] <johnny> the summit makes me more likely to do so
[19:51:38] <jefferai> so there's definitely going to be one?
[19:52:08] <johnny> i have no idea :)
[19:52:14] <johnny> that's why i'm asking
[19:52:22] <johnny> there is no summit summit 9 page on the xmpp wiki
[19:52:30] <jefferai> at OSCON I signed up for an Android development class...I wonder how much code re-use you could find from good clients to build an actually decent xmpp client for Android without starting from scratch
[19:52:47] <notKev> I believe you could do it with Swift, if you were so inclined.
[19:53:02] <jefferai> swift is Qt4 right?
[19:53:06] <johnny> jefferai, i'm looking for a webkit client
[19:53:08] <jefferai> I know someone has been working on porting Qt4 over
[19:53:16] <johnny> webkit/gecko based client that is
[19:53:20] <notKev> Swift itself isn't tied to anything.
[19:53:41] <notKev> It's a bunch of controllers and some defined interfaces.
[19:53:48] <jefferai> ah
[19:54:00] <johnny> ii want to write code in html/js/css .. not qt,gtkbuilder, blah blah blah
[19:54:06] <jefferai> and just using Qt as its current GUI, then
[19:54:17] <notKev> Something just has to implement those interfaces - we have a Qt4 implementation, but I believe one could use JNI to wrap it in a native Android UI>
[19:54:24] <jefferai> johnny: nice idea...and Android has good webkit support...but I know jack crap about writing html/js/css :-)
[19:54:31] <johnny> jefferai, that's all i know :)
[19:54:36] <johnny> well not really..
[19:54:39] <johnny> but it's what i like the best
[19:55:05] <jefferai> notKev: hm. I don't really know much about JNI, either. I haven't done Java in about 9 years, and back then it was Java 1.1, and slow as all hell, and buggy
[19:55:16] <johnny> jefferai, well i know the gnome folks are making it easier to write apps in js, i assume kde has a similiar project?
[19:55:21] <johnny> seed/gjs
[19:55:40] <jefferai> johnny: don't really need to -- qt has js built straight in
[19:55:47] <johnny> hmm..
[19:56:00] <notKev> jefferai: Right, I'm not sure how trivial it would be, but the reward would be fairly great. A decent client on Android that's going to receive continuing development :)
[19:56:14] <jefferai> yeah
[19:56:20] <jefferai> not promising anything at all, just that I'm interested
[19:56:20] <johnny> jefferai, really .. what i want is a client that can be both remotely hosted, and run locally
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[01:57:11] <jefferai> MattJ: ok, so my question is:
[01:57:20] <jefferai> I've been thinking about the remaining bits of the long logon time
[01:57:46] <jefferai> so with the fixes going in for pep, the remaining bits are that the client gets the roster, then does a presence on everyone in the roster
[01:58:22] <jefferai> maybe there's already something about this in one of the XEPs or something, but...
[01:58:47] <jefferai> is there a reason that if your roster contains a JID on the same server, or perhaps the same server/host, the server can't give the presence information as part of the roster?
[01:59:14] <MattJ> It's tempting
[01:59:24] <MattJ> But when thought out, it gives little benefit
[01:59:30] <jefferai> Hm
[01:59:33] <jefferai> Enlighten me?
[01:59:35] <MattJ> Presence can contain more than the status
[01:59:38] <jefferai> Cause, I've been thinking about it
[01:59:41] <jefferai> Ah
[01:59:49] <MattJ> So you'd end up sticking presence stanzas inside roster stanzas
[02:00:00] <MattJ> and really then it's little different to just sending the stanzas separately
[02:00:12] <jefferai> in terms of raw XML data, sure
[02:00:19] <MattJ> Though I've often thought about putting in hints in the roster
[02:00:20] <jefferai> but it's less back-and-forth
[02:00:32] <jefferai> what else can presence contain?
[02:00:34] <MattJ> Just for clients to show which users are online/offline before they get the real presence
[02:00:39] <jefferai> are there bits in presence that the server doesn't know?
[02:00:48] <jefferai> or actually - sure
[02:00:55] <MattJ> No, the server has all the presence stanzas for local users cached
[02:01:00] <jefferai> ok
[02:01:19] <jefferai> certainly if the roster had hints saying "this user is offline" then the client would know there isn't point in asking for presence
[02:01:27] <jefferai> that would reduce a lot of round trips
[02:01:32] <MattJ> The client doesn't ask, it just gets
[02:01:42] <jefferai> the rest, whether the presence stanza went inside roster or not
[02:01:54] <jefferai> yes, that's what I meant
[02:02:11] <jefferai> getting
[02:02:16] <jefferai> I mean, it asks someone
[02:02:18] <jefferai> :-)
[02:02:24] <jefferai> "requests"
[02:02:34] <MattJ> No, it doesn't
[02:02:40] <MattJ> Presence is pushed by the server automatically
[02:02:51] <MattJ> I should have said, it doesn't ask, it just receives
[02:03:19] <jefferai> That doesn't seem to match what I saw in the debug logs
[02:03:29] <jefferai> I saw a round trip for each contact
[02:04:18] <MattJ> What kind of a round-trip?
[02:08:10] <jefferai> do you have backlog in the prosody room?
[02:08:16] <jefferai> mine is gone, so I don't have it offhand
[02:08:27] <jefferai> but it was in there
[02:08:31] <MattJ> I probably still have your log open in my browser actually
[02:14:29] <MattJ> Ah, finally found it
[02:14:51] <MattJ> 1276186005 mydomain.com:presence debug inbound presence probe from someuser91640@mydomain.com for someuser81362@mydomain.com 1276186005 mydomain.com:presence debug broadcasted presence of 0 resources from someuser81362@mydomain.com to someuser91640@mydomain.com/heifertosh
[02:15:02] <MattJ> So yes, I see what you mean
[02:15:15] <MattJ> But for local->local contacts there isn't really a probe
[02:15:25] <jefferai> hm
[02:15:32] <jefferai> but *something* is going on on the server, right?
[02:15:32] <MattJ> Probes are sent by the server to get the presence of contacts
[02:15:38] <MattJ> Yes, of course
[02:15:42] <jefferai> ah
[02:15:48] <jefferai> but you're saying that really it's all on the server
[02:15:53] <MattJ> Yep
[02:15:53] <jefferai> not really going back and forth to/from the client
[02:15:56] <MattJ> Correct
[02:16:01] <jefferai> OK
[02:16:13] <jefferai> So, the server sends a probe to itself to get presence, then broadcasts to itself
[02:16:21] <jefferai> and only actually sends presence info for online users to the client
[02:16:30] <MattJ> If the contact is remote, Prosody will send a probe to that contact's server to get their current presence back
[02:16:36] <jefferai> OK
[02:16:43] <jefferai> Alright, I mistook that as coming from the clientt
[02:16:46] <jefferai> *client
[02:16:46] <MattJ> If it's local, it emulates a probe, mainly for the benefit of privacy lists
[02:16:55] <jefferai> because of the "inbound"
[02:16:58] <jefferai> ah, ok
[02:17:19] <MattJ> Yeah, a real probe and emulated probe triggers the same code that prints that message
[02:17:37] <jefferai> *nod*
[02:18:45] <MattJ> We do of course have the option to not tell the client about offline users
[02:18:49] <MattJ> iirc
[02:18:57] <MattJ> !xmpp-im
[02:19:00] <MattJ> !ding
[02:21:23] <MattJ> " Else, if the contact has no available resources, then the server SHOULD reply to the presence probe by sending to the user a presence stanza of type "unavailable" (although sending unavailable presence here is preferable because it results in a deterministic answer to the probe, it is not mandatory because it can greatly increase the number of presence notifications generated by the contact's server);"
[02:21:59] <jefferai> Makes sense
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[02:24:18] <MattJ> SAL works
[02:24:43] <MattJ> I wonder if conference.jabber.org tightened up something that doesn't let HAL join
[02:26:10] <MattJ> The Lua sandbox and room moderation are about the only things I need to port from HAL to SAL and then I can switch them
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