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[08:51:32] <SiliconOwl> Morning all
[08:51:39] <Kev> Good morning.
[08:52:58] <SiliconOwl> Has anyone else noticed odd interactions between the jabber.org and the livejournal.com XMPP servers? In particular regarding presence authorisation.
[08:53:13] <Kev> I'm not aware of any.
[08:54:04] <SiliconOwl> The problem I'm seeing is that a week or so ago myself and a friend on the livejournal server stopped being able to see each others presence.
[08:54:17] <SiliconOwl> We both made a re-request but only his stuck.
[08:54:36] <Kev> Do you have any other contacts on livejournal?
[08:54:45] <SiliconOwl> In other words, the person on the livejournal server was able to request presence of me on the jabber.org server.
[08:55:26] <SiliconOwl> No
[08:55:57] <SiliconOwl> I, however, can not request presence from them. The debug log shows the request is sent but at his end it never arrives.
[08:56:47] <Kev> It looks to me like jabber.org has already sent the presence request to livejournal, but hasn't got a response.
[08:56:58] <SiliconOwl> That's how it appears to me.
[08:57:02] <Kev> The easiest way to jog livejournal into replying may be to completely remove the contact and re-add.
[08:57:26] <SiliconOwl> Tried that. No dice.
[08:57:45] <SiliconOwl> It seems like LiveJournal is just ignoring presence requests.
[08:58:00] <SiliconOwl> Obviously that's not jabber.org's fault but I thought I'd check that this wasn't a known problem.
[08:59:17] <Kev> Could you do me a favour, for diagnostic's sake, and remove them now?
[08:59:24] <SiliconOwl> Certainly.
[08:59:29] <Kev> I assume you're talking about the b...b..@lj.com user?
[08:59:56] <SiliconOwl> That pattern would certainly fit the username. :-)
[09:00:05] <SiliconOwl> They are now removed. Would you like me to add again?
[09:00:09] <Kev> No.
[09:00:34] <Kev> Ah. That's interesting.
[09:00:40] <Kev> They don't seem to have been removed from your roster.
[09:01:03] <Kev> Ah
[09:01:10] <SiliconOwl> Pidgin is quite adamant that they have.
[09:01:13] <Kev> It looks like you removed them from one of the two groups they were in, but not the other.
[09:01:36] <Kev> Look in Buddies.
[09:01:38] <SiliconOwl> Ah, I see that now. Don't know how that second one ended up there.
[09:01:57] <SiliconOwl> As you may be able to tell, I don't list people under "buddies"
[09:02:18] <Kev> Looks like you've removed them now, though?
[09:02:19] <SiliconOwl> I've deleted the extraneous one now.
[09:02:22] <Kev> Ok.
[09:02:30] <Kev> It's all clear from your roster, so re-adding may work now.
[09:06:50] <SiliconOwl> I have tried to re-add only to be told that it isn't possible, the username doesn't exist.
[09:07:16] <SiliconOwl> It looks identical to the one I'm using to talke with the guy right now.
[09:08:37] <SiliconOwl> Ah, silly me, wrong network.
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[09:11:59] <SiliconOwl> Still no joy. Well thanks for trying.
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[12:02:25] <HAL> waqas: MattJ told me to tell you - Pack ages.
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[12:44:44] <bittin> Hello
[12:44:45] <bittin> !ru
[12:44:45] <HAL> Это англоязычная комната. Для общения на русском языке посетите комнату talks@conference.jabber.ru - Всего хорошего!
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[13:26:31] <datdx0601> hi every body
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[17:14:35] <evilotto> why do there seem to be so many more jabber servers in europe than the us? Are yanks just not interested?
[17:15:24] <evilotto> even oz seems better represented
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[19:28:41] <wall_unit> I would like to setup a conference room on my ejabberd server in a way that only local users can join. How can i do that?
[19:29:23] <Kev> Set it members only, with your server as a member.
[19:30:42] <wall_unit> Ok, I figured out how to set it members-only. But how to define members?
[19:31:21] <Kev> It's in the room config somewhere.
[19:31:30] <Kev> Perhaps someone familiar with Pidgin will help you :)
[19:31:35] <naw> what client do you use?
[19:31:48] <wall_unit> As Kev already inspected, Pifgin. ;)
[19:31:52] <wall_unit> Pidgin
[19:32:14] <darkrain> The /affiliate command can do that ("/help affiliate" for details)
[19:32:38] <wall_unit> ah ok have already wondered what this command is about.
[19:32:58] <naw> hehe, sorry, my connection lags a lot today
[19:33:44] <wall_unit> darkrain: looks good. But isn't there a way to give all local users member status on all rooms?
[19:34:06] <darkrain> That would be something you'd configure in ejabberd, I think
[19:34:34] <wall_unit> Didn't found something about that
[19:34:58] <Kev> If you only want local users across the whole service, just set your ejabberd config to not allow s2s to that domain.
[19:37:11] <wall_unit> Kev: I know. But what I am going to do is running the jabber server for the company i work at. So I want the employees be able to comunicate with people at other companies, but want keep foreign users away from our private conferences.
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[19:37:26] <Kev> wall_unit: yes, do what I said :)
[19:37:35] <Kev> just don't allow s2s to the conference domain.
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[19:38:22] <wall_unit> oh, that is possible?
[19:38:39] <Kev> Should be.
[19:40:02] <wall_unit> h it's called MUC service, right?
[19:41:39] <Kev> I don't remember what ejabberd configs look like.
[19:41:45] <Kev> The XMPP name is a MUC service though, yes.
[19:42:17] <wall_unit> ok, thanks
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[19:44:05] <wall_unit> I gave access to muc services only to local and it seems to work as expected.
[19:45:11] <Kev> Good.
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[19:49:28] <naw> [21:37:35] <Kev> just don't allow s2s to the conference domain. [21:38:23] <wall_unit> oh, that is possible? [21:38:40] <Kev> Should be. if there isn't an option in the configuration, you can just use an invalid address like (rooms.localhost) thatwill be known by the server but not by others
[19:49:51] <Kev> naw: that doesn't prevent remote users connecting.
[19:50:27] <Kev> It means it won't work out of the box, but if someone wants their users to be able to join the mucs, they'll be able to.
[19:51:03] <wall_unit> The problem is already solved. You can grant and deny access for groups of users per service. I just didn't knew that it was called muc.
[19:51:04] <naw> yes, I guess but it's a workarround for most cases
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[20:06:09] <wall_unit> what is a workaround?
[20:07:43] <naw> wall_unit: wikipedia's definition: A workaround is a bypass of a recognized problem in a system. A workaround is typically a temporary fix that implies that a genuine solution to the problem is needed. Frequently workarounds are as creative as true solutions, involving outside the box thinking in their creation.
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[20:52:35] <njsg> so I'm again trying to understand google talk. but this time it's together with jabber.org.
[20:52:47] <njsg> I want to set "invisible mode", and my client has an option for that which sends an "invisible" presence (XML consoles are nice), which is not supported by gtalk but is accepted by jabber.org.
[20:53:00] <njsg> But even using type="unavailable" in gtalk, I get no presence info from buddies that are, in fact, online.
[20:53:42] <naw> unavailable meanss that you are offline
[20:53:51] <naw> and there is no invisible mode
[20:53:55] <njsg> the obvious explanation is that I'm misunderstanding this, were not for a server which supports privacy lists showing a buddy (a bot, but it's nevertheless a buddy) when I log in as invisible
[20:54:12] <naw> there was one, but is not compliant with the specs and should not be used
[20:54:32] <njsg> so that's at gtalk, right?
[20:55:27] <naw> no, in jabber, the invisible presence http://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0018.html is not standards compliand
[20:55:31] <naw> compliant
[20:56:54] <naw> although using privacy lists you could be invisible (preventing presence notifications from being sent to your contacts)
[20:58:30] <njsg> so the only way is xep-0126, which actually seems to rely only on privacy lists (presences have no specified type, as far as I can tell from it)
[20:58:51] <njsg> that would explain why jabber.org and gmail.com don't work and sapo.pt works
[20:59:01] <njsg> (the later supports the lists)
[21:00:10] <darkrain> I believe [XEP 186] is considered the "best" option, although I don't know of any server-side implementations (*looks at MattJ*)
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[21:01:06] <MattJ> I'm working on invisible command
[21:01:09] <MattJ> whatever number that is
[21:01:15] <MattJ> because it's my favourite
[21:01:28] <MattJ> and the Telepathy developers' too I think
[21:01:38] <darkrain> That's 186, except HAL didn't seem to be here
[21:02:27] <njsg> hmm actually sapo.pt is obeying <presence type="invisible">, just XEP-0018
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[21:02:58] <naw> some servers have support for it, but some not
[21:03:19] <MattJ> !version sapo.pt
[21:03:20] <HAL> MattJ: There was an error requesting sapo.pt's version
[21:03:27] <darkrain> [XEP 186]
[21:03:28] <njsg> so, what about jabber.org, any good way to get sort-of "invisibility"?
[21:03:31] <darkrain> [xep 186]
[21:03:31] <HAL> XEP-0186: Invisible Command is Standards Track (Experimental, 2008-10-07) See: http://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0186.html
[21:03:36] <MattJ> I thought they ran ejabberd, and I can't believe that supports presence type="invisible"
[21:03:37] <darkrain> Bah, case sensitivity
[21:03:39] <naw> MattJ: is an ejabberd server
[21:03:53] <MattJ> :/
[21:04:14] <naw> ejabberd had invisible since 1.x versions, maybe even before
[21:04:36] <MattJ> Yes, but presence type="invisible" is a very old protocol
[21:04:44] <MattJ> and is incompatible with the RFCs
[21:05:23] <njsg> I'm the one to blame - I went looking for it, it was disabled by default (in Psi) and I enabled it, but I didn't know there was a good reason for it being disabled
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[21:05:39] <naw> when you do a service discovery to the server you get a <feature var="presence-invisible"/>
[21:06:40] <njsg> yes
[21:06:44] <MattJ> naw, and that feature is also completely non-standard :P
[21:07:15] <MattJ> /me sighs
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[21:07:33] <MattJ> The best and most likely to work method for invisibility at the moment is with privacy lists
[21:08:09] <MattJ> Which is enough for many people, but I'd like to see clients and servers adopt 186 so we can finally settle on something simpler but with enough flexibility
[21:08:15] <MattJ> and compatible with the RFCs
[21:08:24] <Kev> 186?
[21:08:26] <Kev> 191?
[21:08:47] <Kev> Ah, yes.
[21:08:49] <Kev> Sorry.
[21:08:50] <darkrain> !xep 191
[21:08:51] <HAL> XEP-0191: Simple Communications Blocking is Standards Track (Draft, 2007-02-15) See: http://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0191.html
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[21:10:20] <njsg> the idea of 186 is to automatize the creation/announcement of a privacy list to achieve invisibility and the sending of the normal presence message as a "set invisible mode" feature?
[21:10:39] <MattJ> njsg, basically
[21:11:51] <Kev> Well, no.
[21:12:19] <Kev> It just 'may' do that if it wants.
[21:14:02] <MattJ> Right, sorry - I answered (in my head) that it basically achieves the same effect as that
[21:14:33] <njsg> right.
[21:14:54] <naw> of the 226 servers in [services], 144 have presence-invisible support
[21:14:54] <HAL> http://www.jabberes.org/servers/
[21:15:07] <njsg> following murphy's law, the only server where I have presence type="invisible" or privacy lists is the one which account I use just for transports...
[21:15:39] <MattJ> naw, even more sad :)
[21:17:06] <njsg> so what about jabber.org? no magic cloak?
[21:18:22] <MattJ> Not right now, no
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[21:20:25] <naw> MattJ: hey are ejabberd, some "session manager (jabberd)" and some not identified
[21:20:55] <MattJ> Likely ejabberd without mod_version or something
[21:21:07] <MattJ> or very old jabberd perhaps
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[21:23:24] <naw> they are ejabberds (without mod_version, I guess)
[21:26:25] <njsg> mattj: do you know if there are plans to (or not to) do it?
[21:27:12] <MattJ> I don't recall that it's on the agenda, but I'll bring it up
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[21:37:05] <Anthony> hello
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[21:37:40] <Anthony> I was wondering if someone could help me test my PGP key with Psi. Does anyone here use PGP?
[21:39:40] <njsg> mattj: thanks
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[21:40:31] <njsg> It's just that today I decided to stay invisible for a while and I wondered at the emptyness of the roster :-)
[21:40:49] <njsg> so that's what made me look for this stuff
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