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[20:19:31] <Guus> anyone care to discuss the Microblogging XEP ?
[20:20:01] <MattJ> What's up?
[20:20:13] <Guus> should it really be based on Atom?
[20:20:23] <johnny> vs?
[20:20:27] <johnny> what else?
[20:20:34] <Guus> (Bear and me are exchanging e-mails on the standards list, but I like MUC better ;) )
[20:20:44] <Guus> something less complex
[20:20:46] <johnny> like identichat
[20:21:14] <Guus> not sure, I'm not familiar with other specs
[20:21:16] <johnny> or using spectrum with twitter
[20:21:21] <johnny> i'ts not a spec
[20:21:29] <johnny> it's a program that mattj wrote (i think)
[20:21:37] <johnny> it's identi.ca via muc
[20:22:05] <Guus> ah, ok. But is that based on the Microblogging XEP?
[20:22:07] <johnny> Guus, hanzz implemented the libpurple twitter plugin via xmpp muc
[20:22:07] <johnny> no
[20:22:11] <johnny> it's not
[20:22:21] <waqas> What exactly is complicated about Atom? Don't use any optional stuff, and it's about as simple as say usertune :/
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[20:22:58] <Guus> well, perhaps the examples in the xep are overly-complex then
[20:24:27] <Guus> and there are some oddities (that bear and I are discussing) that I find annoying at least: instead of the content, use a title element (to avoid empty titles), we need an additional author specification, even though I believe that's implied (author typically is the PEP-service owner)
[20:24:45] <waqas> They are. <source/> is optional for example.
[20:25:01] <waqas> Which reduces the entry size in the examples by half.
[20:26:14] <waqas> See http://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc4287#section-1.1 for a small entry
[20:26:28] <waqas> Just the <entry/>
[20:27:08] <Guus> ok, just the entry woudl be a lot better - but Atom requires you to add the author if thre's no feed context, for example
[20:27:23] <Guus> and I think we can do without title, possibly even ID too
[20:27:49] <Guus> it's all... bloated. Makes it less likely to be implemented in existing apps that don't use Atom yet, I think.
[20:28:19] <johnny> it's not that bloated..
[20:28:30] <johnny> one lib will handle it
[20:28:31] <Guus> no, but it could be a lot simpler
[20:28:56] <Guus> XMPP in itself can be pretty complex - we're wrapping this in pubsub/PEP to begin with
[20:29:08] <johnny> obviously it can :)
[20:29:14] <waqas> I don't think there's any simpler competing format.
[20:29:25] <johnny> a made up json format?
[20:29:29] <johnny> i guess..
[20:29:36] <waqas> You could make one of course, but that wouldn't have existing support.
[20:29:44] <waqas> json in xml.. joke or not? :)
[20:29:49] <waqas> You never know :)
[20:29:57] <Guus> why not use an XMPP specific representation, and use an extension to the XEP if you want Atom (or other formats) interoperability?
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[20:30:11] <johnny> because there's already too much reinvention in xmpp
[20:30:21] <johnny> better to wrap more of xmpp in atompub :)
[20:30:37] <johnny> my favorite example.. data forms..
[20:30:49] <johnny> data forms... when xforms can do the job :)
[20:31:20] <johnny> i think you're fighting the wrong battle Guus .. better to make xmpp itself reuse more things if anything at all
[20:31:59] <waqas> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_content_syndication_markup_languages - Out of all those, I'd pick Atom :/
[20:32:47] <waqas> And reinventing the wheel here would be the wrong thing to do. Is having <title/> or <author/> required by Atom really that bad?
[20:33:14] <Guus> that has its pro's and con's. In the Microblogging example, i'm wondering how many clients would actually be written that make use of Atom-based PEP to provide content.
[20:33:35] <Guus> microblogs do not have a title.
[20:33:45] <waqas> My point is, it would be no harder and no easier than something custom you come up with.
[20:34:35] <johnny> why can't microblogs have a title?
[20:34:44] <Guus> <post><content>hello world</content></post>
[20:34:56] <johnny> Guus, did you ever see the atompub mod created by eric cestari for ejabberd?
[20:35:13] <johnny> it exposes the atom feed of the microblog via the http server
[20:35:13] <Guus> sorry, they don't need to have a title (twitter for example, doesn't)
[20:35:18] <johnny> a title would be useful for that
[20:35:21] <waqas> Guus: Microblog entries can have a title, and no have content :)
[20:35:45] <johnny> also waqas .. you should make it for me
[20:35:46] <johnny> :)
[20:35:49] <johnny> hehe
[20:35:57] <johnny> in prosody i mean
[20:36:04] <waqas> It? :)
[20:36:21] <waqas> I already wrote you a mod_pep. Bug those client authors :)
[20:36:24] <Guus> waqas: I'm not sure that a title alone would qualify as a 'post' :)
[20:36:47] <johnny> waqas, what did you write me?
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[20:37:11] <johnny> this isn't about posting anything different
[20:37:27] <johnny> i just want to see my pep and status available as an atom feed via http server
[20:37:43] <waqas> Guus: See what twitter do: http://twitter.com/statuses/user_timeline/11395.rss
[20:37:46] <johnny> altho.. mod_webpresence still needs to support pep and other similiar options
[20:37:50] <Guus> ok, I'm not saying that we should disallow representing XMPP-microblogs in atom
[20:38:01] <waqas> That's RSS, but the same applies.
[20:38:27] <johnny> Guus, i don't think anybody is gonna budge on this.. and there are plenty of atom libs out there
[20:38:59] <Guus> I'm not sure if we're discussing the same thing here
[20:39:44] <Guus> I agree with you guys that being able to federate XMPP-based microblogs (though Atom) is very, very valuable
[20:39:54] <johnny> Guus, i gave ou examples of muc based microblog already
[20:39:57] <johnny> 2 of them
[20:40:08] <Guus> I'm just wondering if inside the XMPP domain, we should use Atom to represent those blogs.
[20:40:30] <waqas> What's the cost if we use Atom?
[20:40:42] <Guus> exactly - they're not following the microblog xep, are they?
[20:40:48] <johnny> no
[20:41:00] <waqas> I'm asking you what the cost is :)
[20:41:02] <johnny> if you think that is a good way to go, go ahead and use it
[20:41:09] <waqas> As in, why shouldn't we use Atom
[20:41:26] <waqas> Is it just the <title> and <author> elements being required?
[20:41:31] <Guus> I'm looking for a specification that fills the gap that those implementations filled by simply implementing something that the authors thought up themselves, basically.
[20:42:31] <Guus> I'm writing a server-sided component that will be used by someone else that writes a client implementation
[20:43:07] <waqas> Erm, it isn't simple PEP/pubsub?
[20:43:13] <Guus> Trying to follow -a- XEP, we keep discussing how to apply Atom, while the only thing we really need is the text content.
[20:43:40] <Guus> I was looking for a simpler way, if there's one.
[20:43:46] <MattJ> Does it really hinder you if you use Atom?
[20:43:53] <MattJ> Really, it's just some text and angle brackets...
[20:43:55] <Guus> the Microblogging XEP does open a door there, by the way.
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[20:44:25] <Guus> Hinder, no, we'll manage. But it's annoying, overly complex to me.
[20:44:40] <waqas> If you just want to share a status message, presence has <status/>. Can't get simpler than that ^^
[20:44:44] <Guus> And, if I feel like that, others might be to, I reasoned, which is why I started discussing this with you guys :)
[20:44:45] <MattJ> :P
[20:45:25] <MattJ> Personally I don't see anything wrong with using Atom, since it exists already, is well-defined, and has a lot of published extensions
[20:46:10] <MattJ> Believe me, whatever custom format you cook up today... next week/month someone will want to add support for X
[20:46:11] <waqas> Guus: What's bear's take on this?
[20:46:12] <Guus> that'd actually be not that bad for me. Perhaps I should rephrase my question, and ask if we can/should add another specific method to do a blogpost in the XEP.
[20:46:14] <MattJ> and then Y, and Z
[20:46:23] <MattJ> and soon you'll have Atom, under another namespace
[20:46:47] <Guus> waqas, he didn't respond to my last mail yet, but from his first response, I'd say he's on your page
[20:46:57] <waqas> I'd expect most people to be :)
[20:47:13] <Guus> I'm the odd one out again, I see :)
[20:47:27] <Guus> mattj: I'm not saying we should ban Atom
[20:47:48] <waqas> Guus: What's your exact use case? Something like twitter/identica?
[20:47:54] <Guus> But I'd like there to be a XEPified, more light-weight solution too
[20:48:08] <Guus> yeah, a legacy gateway implementation of microblogging, basically
[20:48:27] <Guus> speaking of overly complex...;)
[20:49:06] <MattJ> Guus, so clients having to implement support for 2 different content formats when implementing XMPP microblogging?
[20:49:16] <Guus> it's rosterless though, so your presence-based suggestion was discarded
[20:49:18] <MattJ> is simpler than just using Atom?
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[20:50:19] <Guus> MattJ: the XEP already allows this up to a certain point: "Romeo can publish a post via any interface provided by his service, such as a website, the Atom Publishing Protocol (see RFC 5023 [8]), SMS, an IM bot, or XMPP pubsub."
[20:50:39] <Guus> it doesn't specify anything further though.
[20:51:46] <waqas> Guus: If I were making something along the lines of identichat, I'd seriously consider mapping to something with existing support, like UserActivity. Whatever else, it would be the most compatible :/
[20:53:29] <waqas> And as for Atom, SMS, IM, pubsub mapping to microblogging, you already have examples of that happening. Twitter/identi.ca can take input from all of those, and give it away in atom/rss.
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[20:53:49] <waqas> Well, maybe not from pubsub, but it's still valid :)
[20:57:15] <Guus> are you now saying that we should not simplify the pubsub-based microblogging input as defined, because there's plenty of implementations that provide microblogging input that use everything but pubsub? :)
[20:58:41] <waqas> If working with existing implementations was a goal. I don't suppose it is for you?
[20:58:55] <waqas> If it isn't, then I'd still recommend atom :)
[20:59:21] <waqas> You could post on the ML for more feedback
[20:59:39] <Guus> I did
[21:00:01] <Guus> http://mail.jabber.org/pipermail/standards/2010-May/023480.html
[21:00:13] <Guus> bear responded to that, I responded to him again
[21:01:06] <waqas> Ah, I missed that, sorry. Haven't been checking my mail :)
[21:01:33] <Guus> no worries :)
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[02:54:17] <darkrain> !sasl-scram
[02:54:23] <darkrain> !ding
[02:54:23] <xepbot> dong
[02:54:25] <darkrain> !scram
[02:54:25] <xepbot> http://sn.im/sasl-scram
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[03:27:43] <darkrain> !xmpp-core
[03:27:43] <xepbot> http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-xmpp-3920bis
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