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[19:22:56] <alkino> Hi all
[19:23:53] <alkino> It's about GSoC
[19:24:10] <bear> hi
[19:24:22] <bear> what do you need to know (or want to ask)
[19:24:24] <alkino> Do we get more chances if we take a client which is list on the wiki ?
[19:24:49] <bear> it's about the student and the project combined - not about which client it is
[19:25:24] <bear> the projects will be selected/edited based on merit for many things - like if it's doable in a summer, if it helps with code
that is needed by community
[19:25:32] <bear> not based on popularity of anything like that
[19:26:18] <bear> so your "chance" is improved if you are motivated to work on the project :)
[19:26:23] <alkino> ok :p
[19:26:48] <bear> it's about getting motivated people working on open source projects - *that* is the primary goal
[19:27:05] <alkino> fine
[19:27:35] <bear> but yea, if you try to do GSoC like most students do Literature homework .... ;)
[19:28:09] <alkino> It's difficult to judge motivation
[19:28:13] <alkino> isn't it ?
[19:28:15] <bear> yep - very
[19:28:44] <bear> that's why once a student starts making noises like they want to apply we will start by engaging them here and also in the
project community
[19:29:01] <bear> to find out if they are focused, self motivated, interested - oh, and know how to code :)
[19:29:33] <bear> so the fact your already engaged in the process is a good start
[19:30:29] <alkino> well \o/
[19:30:59] <bear> \m/
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[19:36:37] <alkino> So thank you
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[19:37:27] <bear> your very welcome
[19:39:41] <Kev> From another perspective, though...
[19:40:11] <Kev> If you want to work on a client that isn't listed on that page, it means the devs didn't have any interest in GSoC, which
means you're unlikely to get a mentor, so a project isn't likely to get accepted.
[19:40:38] <Kev> So it largely depends on what you want to do.
[19:40:43] <Kev> Chat to us about it :)
[19:42:06] <alkino> I discuss with the maintainer of the projet
[19:42:15] <alkino> and he's agree and have some discuss with Mattj
[19:42:44] <bear> getting them to update the project page would be very helpful :)
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[19:43:37] <alkino> ok bear
[19:43:55] <Kev> alkino: which project?
[19:44:05] <alkino> MCabber
[19:44:09] <alkino> but I must leave :s
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[19:44:10] <alkino> sorry
[19:44:15] <alkino> my school is going to close
[19:44:16] <bear> np - chat wiht ou later
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[19:46:50] <serty> I've some question about roster groups
[19:47:11] <bear> evil they are .... evil!
[19:47:13] <serty> you can have the same roster item in multiple groups
[19:47:26] <darkrain> Yes.
[19:47:29] <Kev> Roster groups are really more like tags for roster items.
[19:47:38] <Kev> Well, that's literally what they are, in the protocol.
[19:47:42] <serty> but is it also possible to have a roster item in one or more groups AND the "none" group
[19:47:56] <Kev> There is no "none" group.
[19:48:06] <serty> yes
[19:48:12] <serty> I mean,
[19:48:56] <serty> I want to know if it is possible to list a roster item both in the root roster tree and in one or more roster groups
[19:49:13] <Kev> Right, but I'm saying - there is no root roster tree.
[19:49:22] <Kev> Roster items have zero or more group tags.
[19:49:22] <deryni> You cannot both list an entry in a group and in no groups.
[19:49:38] <serty> online
- user@example.org
- group
-user@example.org
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[19:49:43] <Kev> So if it has no tags, it has no tags, if it has some tags, it has some tags.
[19:49:50] <serty> so something like the above
[19:50:00] <darkrain> !xmpp-im
[19:50:01] <xepbot> http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-xmpp-3921bis
[19:50:05] <serty> Kev: indeed
[19:50:14] <Kev> That's not what's really happening, though, that's just how your client happens to be translating it to the ui
[19:50:46] <Kev> what's really happening is
user1@example.org | groups=
user2@example.org | groups=friends
user3@example.org | groups=friends,coworkers
[19:50:47] <serty> but is the scenario I describe possible?
[19:51:01] <serty> or is this a gap in the protocol?
[19:51:05] <Kev> It's neither.
[19:51:11] <deryni> It isn't possible and it isn't a gap.
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[19:51:38] <Kev> It doesn't make any sense - you're asking if you can have a contact simultaneously be in no groups, and be in some groups
- that should clearly be impossible.
[19:51:39] <serty> Kev: how, then should the described scenario be implemented in a client?
[19:51:59] <deryni> What scenario?
[19:52:02] <Kev> Indeed.
[19:52:25] <serty> deryni: to have a roster item both in groups and in o groups
[19:52:34] <deryni> It can't be done.
[19:52:50] <Kev> It can't be done, and I've no idea why you'd want it to be done, it doesn't make any sense.
[19:52:54] <deryni> As should be plainly clear given the meaning of "in a group" and "in no groups".
[19:53:01] <serty> Kev: why would it make no sense?
[19:53:13] <deryni> The UI display is fine.
[19:53:15] <Kev> serty: because you can't be both in a group and in no groups.
[19:53:17] <serty> from a user interface point if view it does make sense...
[19:53:28] <Kev> There's nothing stopping a client translating the roster however it wants to.
[19:53:43] <deryni> A UI is free to consider any single group as "no groups" or all groups as "no groups" but that doesn't change the fact that
the protocol isn't presenting that.
[19:53:44] <Kev> If you want to write a client that shows every roster item both in the root of the tree, and in a group hierachy, that's fine.
[19:54:06] <Kev> Or, if you want a group to have special meaning to your client, that's fine too.
[19:54:15] <Kev> Some clients use a group called 'Hidden' to not show things to the user.
[19:54:51] <serty> maybe a XEP should be written to define such advanced groups?
[19:55:07] <deryni> XEPs don't cover purely client behaviour.
[19:55:35] <Kev> deryni: well, actually, I think there /is/ merit in better specifying what happens with roster metadata.
[19:55:48] <Kev> An informational XEP for that is on my ever-increasing TODO.
[19:55:50] <serty> the XEP can define the required behavior for special groups
[19:56:07] <deryni> Kev: In what sense does that apply here?
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[19:56:27] <deryni> How a client considers a group with a specific name isn't something I think should be in any XEP.
[19:56:32] <Kev> deryni: well, you might have your group with a namespaced note saying "Hi, I'm special"
[19:56:47] <Kev> Well - for precisely that reason, to avoid having to hard-code a name.
[19:56:48] <deryni> Allowing for metadata to be attached and persisted is fine.
[19:57:03] <deryni> But that's not purely client behavious.
[19:57:13] <Kev> It's not, indeed.
[19:57:51] <Kev> serty: if you see a hole in the protocol for something, you're welcome (and anyone is welcome) to write up a protoXEP, and
submit it to the XEP Editor to submit to the XMPP Council to vote on moving to the standards track.
[19:58:09] <serty> deryni: if the groups are standardized in a XEP, the user can switch to another client without the need to rename her special
groups
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[19:58:14] <Kev> I'll admit that as you explain things now, I can't see a clear need for such a protocol, but you're welcome to try.
[19:58:39] <deryni> serty: Yes, but that's not what XEPs cover.
[19:58:54] <deryni> At least in general.
[19:59:09] <darkrain> Interestingly, the bis draft (that I could see) doesn't actually specify what should happen with <group/> or <group></group>
[19:59:15] <serty> /me thinks the "/me" tag is in a XEP.... :-)
[19:59:17] <Kev> deryni: there is a precedent - roster group hierachies are defined in a XEP with special naming.
[19:59:27] <deryni> I hate the nested group XEP. =)
[19:59:31] <deryni> For various reasons.
[19:59:34] <Kev> Yes, it's an abomination.
[19:59:49] <deryni> I'm all for a metadata XEP with a registry of common values.
[19:59:58] <deryni> But not a "special group name" codifying XEP.
[20:00:08] <Kev> *nod*
[20:00:18] <Kev> I can assure you that Council would block a "special group name" XEP.
[20:00:29] <Kev> The current Council, in any case.
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[20:01:27] <serty> btw, is this room still logged?
[20:01:41] <serty> I want to bookmark this discussion...
[20:01:58] <serty> but the last log seems to be from January
[20:02:00] <Kev> Not at the moment, no.
[20:02:04] <Kev> Well, yes, it's log.
[20:02:08] <Kev> But they're not online at the moment.
[20:02:41] <serty> will they be indexed by Google so that I can find it back? :-)
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[20:03:06] <Kev> Probably.
[20:03:15] <Kev> Once the logs are back online.
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[20:06:44] <Kev> serty: if you can write up your use cases for this, you could submit them to the standards list, and see if the discussion
leads to something better than hard-coding group names. Roster metadata seems like the right way to go for this.
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[20:09:21] <serty> well, in the upcoming Coccinella release you can drag and drop contacts
[20:09:40] <serty> if you do, a menu with copy, move and cancel appears
[20:10:15] <serty> if you drag and drop a contact to the root, you can select the move option
[20:10:44] <serty> but if you select copy, nothing happens
[20:11:20] <serty> users who want a contact both in the root and in a group will think this is a bug in Coccinella
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[20:11:32] <Kev> Which, of course, it is :)
[20:11:51] <serty> why? :p
[20:12:02] <Kev> Because it shouldn't allow you to copy the item.
[20:12:05] <serty> it looks to be a protocol bug :p
[20:12:52] <Kev> The problem here is that Coccinella has chosen to represent ungrouped users in an unusual way - most clients use a pseudo-group
like 'General' or 'Buddies' for this.
[20:13:15] <Kev> (And I agree that using roste annotations to specify such a group as default would be good)
[20:13:58] <serty> Coccinella has an online and an offline root
[20:14:08] <darkrain> I think the pseudo-groups end up being bad-ish hacks, personally
[20:14:20] <serty> you can move a contact to this to remove the groups
[20:14:22] <Kev> darkrain: see my comment about roster annotations :)
[20:14:38] <Tobias> there's also nested roster groups :)
[20:14:47] <darkrain> Kev: Ah, right.
[20:14:49] <Kev> Tobias: we've already discussed that abomination.
[20:14:50] <serty> Kev: is that a XEP?
[20:15:03] <Tobias> Kev: sorry...i didn'T read all the backlog :)
[20:15:42] <serty> are you talking about XEP-0145?
[20:15:51] <Kev> serty: roster metadata? No. In theory it shouldn't need a XEP, but most servers don't allow extensibility in the roster, so
I think an Informational XEP needs to be written.
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[03:00:32] <psi> hmm
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[03:06:18] <psi> yes
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[03:37:11] <memuc> yes there is
[03:37:24] <psi> is what?
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