Logs for jdev

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[00:15:11] * Neustradamus left the chat.
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[00:45:05] * RedNifre joined the chat.
[00:45:11] <RedNifre> howdy!
[00:48:20] <johnny> howdy
[00:49:00] <RedNifre> I'm totally new to XMPP and the first one it my peer group to use it, so I'm feeling a bit lost.
[00:49:12] <RedNifre> This channel was recommended to me.
[00:49:19] <johnny> k?
[00:49:25] <RedNifre> But judging by its name its more for developers...
[00:49:50] <RedNifre> While I might want to write an Android app later, now I'm interested in the basics first.
[00:49:59] <johnny> which basics?
[00:50:03] <RedNifre> Is this the right channel to ask these questions, or is this strictly for developers.
[00:50:09] <johnny> depending on the questions
[00:50:18] <RedNifre> For example, how to create a chat room for me and my friends?
[00:50:29] <MattJ> Just join one that doesn't exist
[00:50:38] <johnny> depending on if you plan on running your own xmpp server, or using an existing public one
[00:50:44] <RedNifre> I'm basically looking for a XMPP manual, but I only find technical specs.
[00:50:49] <johnny> if you want to use the jabber.org server, do as mattj says
[00:51:00] <RedNifre> Are they free to be used by anyone?
[00:51:05] <johnny> yes
[00:51:11] <johnny> but you do need an xmpp client though
[00:51:19] <johnny> i mean your friends do
[00:51:28] <johnny> another option is http://speeqe.com
[00:51:28] <RedNifre> I'm only used to IRC, where the servers have a topic (like freenode is about open source). Is jabber.org a free for all server?
[00:51:30] <johnny> which is web based
[00:51:34] <johnny> i think so
[00:53:11] <RedNifre> Okay, but how to get the hierachy stuff done? Like, becoming the owner, making my friends members or ops or something like that? And how long does it stick? Is it necessary that there is at least one person in the channel, to make the settings stay? I guess the role settings are stored on the server, so is there something like a decay time, if the room hasn't been used for some time?
[00:53:34] <johnny> that's server specific
[00:53:38] <johnny> there's no general answer for that
[00:53:44] <johnny> it's configurable by the admins
[00:54:08] <johnny> imean in regards to the decay time
[00:54:16] <johnny> the rest, you should just try yourself
[00:54:27] <RedNifre> So, how hard is it to create my own XMPP server? Just a simple one for a few chat rooms, but no user data. All chatters will have their accounts somewhere else.
[00:54:29] <johnny> in clients like pidgin, the UI is the same
[00:54:43] <johnny> the same between irc and xmpp that is
[00:54:47] <johnny> mostly the same anyways
[00:54:53] <johnny> enough so that you should be able to figure it out
[00:55:04] <RedNifre> ok, I'll see about that. Thank you!
[00:55:25] <johnny> it's easy enough to run your own, if you have an operating system to run it on
[00:55:33] <johnny> and the proper dns settings
[00:55:41] <RedNifre> I have a little BSD machine that we use as a minecraft server
[00:55:49] <johnny> that should work
[00:56:10] <johnny> we recommend prosody, altho it doesn't have a properly awesome web ui yet, it's on the way
[00:56:15] <RedNifre> What proper DNS settings? Currently, we use dyndns to point to our router which forwards various ports to various machines.
[00:56:22] <RedNifre> It's just a hobby, basically.
[00:56:33] <RedNifre> So I'm looking for the most low end XMPP server software there is.
[00:56:39] <RedNifre> Any suggestions?
[00:57:52] <darkrain_> Prosody
[00:57:57] <johnny> you need to be able to set SRV records, i don't think you can do that with dyndns
[00:58:03] <johnny> i could be wrong tho
[00:58:05] <darkrain_> No you don't
[00:58:07] <johnny> but yes.. we recommend prosody
[00:58:28] <johnny> hmm.. what was that issue with dyndns again? i thought i read one once
[00:58:30] <johnny> maybe it's gone now
[00:58:35] <RedNifre> I never heard about SRV records, I'm not an expert on this.
[00:58:36] <johnny> i haven't used it in uhmm...
[00:58:47] <RedNifre> I never had any problems with it.
[00:58:47] <darkrain_> RedNifre: As long as the dyndns A record points at a server which has forwarded ports 5222 and 5269 to your XMPP server, you're fine.
[00:58:53] <johnny> RedNifre, well darkrain is right, you don't actually *need* them yet.. but you should have them.. :)
[00:59:15] <darkrain_> Given the limitations described, they're not necessary (and AFAIK, impossible to impleement)
[00:59:27] <RedNifre> What darkrain_ said sounds nice, but I did not comprehend what johnny said.
[00:59:32] <johnny> huh?
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[00:59:43] <RedNifre> I don't need them, but I should have them? Why?
[00:59:45] <johnny> what was hard to comprehend about what i said?
[00:59:57] <johnny> are you familiar with MX records?
[00:59:59] <xxd> fds
[00:59:59] <darkrain_> RedNifre: SRV records are a different type of DNS record, which let you specify where to find a SeRVice associated with a domain. They're recommended as a best practice for XMPP, but not actually necessary in reality.
[01:00:00] <johnny> they are like that
[01:00:09] <johnny> but generic
[01:00:13] <xxd> aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa
[01:00:31] <MattJ> xxd, hello
[01:00:36] <RedNifre> Ah, so worst case is that one client relies on them and thus won't be able to connect to my server?
[01:00:36] <johnny> you ask a server, where it runs X service on Y port
[01:00:47] <johnny> RedNifre, all reasonable clients will fall back on the A record
[01:01:01] <darkrain_> Right. I'm not actually aware of a client that doesn't
[01:01:08] <darkrain_> !xmpp-core
[01:01:18] <johnny> darkrain, just hedging.. since i haven't actually used all clients :)
[01:01:32] <RedNifre> Hm, is this really about Dyndns? Isn't that something the Fritzbox (router) would get ask?
[01:01:33] <darkrain_> Well, I was going to say the spec requires it, but since HAL is broken...
[01:01:47] <RedNifre> I mean, it's the Fritzbox that does the port forwarding.
[01:01:52] <RedNifre> No, wait, I don't get it.
[01:02:07] <RedNifre> This question "where's service X"... Who gets asked that?
[01:02:09] <johnny> areyou familiar with the conept of introspection
[01:02:14] <RedNifre> Not at all.
[01:02:17] <MattJ> http://prosody.im/doc/dns
[01:02:20] <johnny> really?
[01:02:21] <MattJ> Simple :)
[01:02:29] <johnny> it's nothing specific to dns
[01:02:31] <RedNifre> Maybe I am. I'm not a native speaker.
[01:02:33] <johnny> err specific to xmpp
[01:02:59] <johnny> it's introspection for services offered by a domain
[01:03:36] <RedNifre> ah, so Dyndns gets asked "Where's XMPP" and it says "on IP 234.7.9802. on port 2342"?
[01:03:56] <MattJ> Yes
[01:04:17] <MattJ> Standard A records suffice if you're running on standard ports
[01:04:23] <MattJ> and dyndns supports thos
[01:04:23] <MattJ> e
[01:04:36] <MattJ> the downside of dyndns is that it no longer supports subdomains
[01:04:40] <johnny> too bad SRV isn't popular for HTTP or SMTP.. that's whereit really matters
[01:04:49] <johnny> since they run on often blocked ports
[01:04:55] <MattJ> which is useful if you want people from other servers to find your services like conference.yourdomain
[01:05:06] <johnny> oh.. really?
[01:05:09] <johnny> when did that happen?
[01:05:24] <johnny> MattJ, RedNifre really only wants the conference part!
[01:06:16] <RedNifre> Yes, I don't need to host user data, I was just thinking about hosting a few chat rooms on my BSD server.
[01:06:42] <MattJ> You could disregard convention and run them on the base domain then
[01:06:57] <MattJ> yourroom@yourdomain instead of yourroom@conference.yourdomain
[01:07:02] <RedNifre> I wonder if its possible to write a minecraft transport.
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[01:07:16] <johnny> probably, if the elements are reasonable to map
[01:07:26] <johnny> i can't say tho.. i've never used minecraft
[01:07:34] <johnny> i keep meaning to look into it, but haven't yet
[01:07:35] <Lirodon> I'm just wondering, has any attempt been made to make a user-focused XMPP site?
[01:07:40] <johnny> there was one
[01:07:43] <johnny> jabber.org
[01:07:52] <johnny> it described how things worked in reasonable language
[01:08:05] <johnny> and used the standard shakespeake characters from the spec
[01:08:08] <Lirodon> I mean, like the difference between mozilla.com and mozilla.oth
[01:08:10] <Lirodon> *.org
[01:08:14] <johnny> yes
[01:08:21] <johnny> i'm not sure what happened to it
[01:09:08] <RedNifre> I find it very hard to find user focused XMPP sites.
[01:09:33] <johnny> because most of the user focused stuff is people using facebook and gmail :)
[01:10:09] <johnny> basically pretending that it works just like email
[01:10:12] <MattJ> XMPP is a protocol, the focus should be made by the client you are using
[01:10:13] <johnny> real time email
[01:10:24] <RedNifre> I'm not sure, the hosts hardly provide any good information. I had to search the web for quite some time to find out that my GMX account is hosted on xmpp-gmx.gmx.net
[01:10:27] <MattJ> Only developers need to know about protocols :)
[01:10:43] <johnny> sure.. it's just like email to gmx too it sounds like
[01:10:51] <MattJ> RedNifre, why did you need to know that?
[01:11:00] <Lirodon> I mean, explaining what this is all about, services that provide it, etc, would be a great way to speed adopton
[01:11:01] <RedNifre> They usually just want you to use their clients. GMX messenger works out of the box, but is aweful. Just like facebook has instantly working chat, but putting it into your favorite IM client needs some research.
[01:11:13] <Florob> I think user focused sides tend to use the term Jabber FWIW
[01:11:15] <johnny> same with gmail
[01:12:13] <RedNifre> MattJ: How else could I add my GMX account to my Instant Messenger Client?
[01:12:22] <Lirodon> yeah, but isn't Jabber owned by Cisco now?
[01:12:41] <RedNifre> What is owned by Cisco? Isn't jabber just the old word for XMPP?
[01:12:54] <MattJ> RedNifre, you should only need to know your address, whatever@gmx.net and your password
[01:13:13] <Lirodon> jabber, inc
[01:13:23] <RedNifre> That's true in Psi, but did not work in Pidgin.
[01:13:37] <MattJ> RedNifre, then you have an old/buggy version of Pidgin that doesn't support SRV records
[01:13:58] <RedNifre> Possible, but doesn't matter now, since I switched to Psi, which makes everything a lot easier.
[01:14:44] <MattJ> It's like email though... who documents that? :)
[01:14:50] <MattJ> The email clients and the email providers
[01:14:59] <RedNifre> My impression is that Multi Messengers don't make much sense any more, because of the XMPP transports. Psi is pure XMPP, but I use it for ICQ, too, thanks to the GMX transport.
[01:15:18] <MattJ> I would rather use a multi-protocol messenger than transports
[01:15:40] <MattJ> even though I stopped using all my non-XMPP accounts a long time ago :)
[01:16:02] <Lirodon> so hmm, would a user-aimed xmpp site work?
[01:16:13] <RedNifre> No, ICQ can only be logged in on one device. If I use a ICQ transport instead, I can be online both on my PC and my phone, since to ICQ it's both the GMX server.
[01:16:53] <MattJ> RedNifre, if you need multiple logins, sure then
[01:17:35] <RedNifre> User aimed xmpp site should recommend really good clients and really good servers. For example, I had troubles using MUC, until I found out, that Google's XMPP is buggy. And I only found out that GMX offers transports by accident.
[01:18:07] <Lirodon> yeah, I'd put in some major users
[01:18:43] <RedNifre> A new user has no chance to guess that GMX+Psi is much, much better than GMail+Pidgin. All this needs to go in a guide.
[01:19:20] <RedNifre> Do all your IM using friends use XMPP?
[01:20:03] <Lirodon> like I mean, look at the WLM site, http://explore.live.com/windows-live-messenger?os=other
[01:20:18] <Lirodon> it clearly explains what its about, what it does, the social facebook junk they added, etc
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[01:22:18] <Lirodon> I'll probaly have to fill it with 100's of "*Some features may not be avaliable in all clients" disclamiers
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[01:23:24] <johnny> or wit hall servers
[01:23:32] <johnny> for example, gtalk users won't see published tunes
[01:23:35] <johnny> or moods
[01:23:47] <Florob> wait... what?
[01:23:55] <Florob> They filter incomming pubsub?
[01:23:58] <johnny> none of my gtalk using friends have ever seen it
[01:24:14] <Lirodon> fill a user-focused XMPP site with hundreds of disclamiers about features not being avaliable on certain servers/platforms/clients
[01:24:27] <johnny> and then you'll just be left, with..
[01:24:34] <johnny> it's just like realtime email
[01:24:46] <Lirodon> we should only promote servers/such on such a site with support for a set of "designated" features
[01:24:55] <johnny> Florob, as far as i know, they filter everything they don't understand
[01:25:00] <RedNifre> What's the direction of XMPP? I like the main idea of it and it would be nice if there either was a social networking protocol based on the idea, or if XMPP grew into becoming a social networking protocol itself.
[01:25:06] <johnny> there is no direction
[01:25:20] <johnny> but there's integration with diaspora
[01:25:29] <johnny> but yes, you could build social networking on top of xmpp
[01:25:42] <Lirodon> I'd love a way to natively bind social networking metadata into it
[01:25:52] <johnny> sure, we already use things like vcards already
[01:25:55] <Lirodon> which could then be parsed by clients to generate stuff
[01:26:04] <johnny> and atompub in some other specs
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[01:26:09] <Lirodon> I mean, I know this is what makes WLM 2011 suck so much
[01:26:14] <RedNifre> Ok, have to go now.
[01:26:23] <RedNifre> Thank you very much for your help!
[01:26:27] <Lirodon> but I noticed they put a heavy emphasis on making it into a social networking dashboard too
[01:26:29] <RedNifre> Bye everyone!
[01:26:55] <Lirodon> linking facebook/twitter/etc accounts to it and having relevant stuff appear on a newsfeed of sort
[01:28:12] <johnny> there's specs for microbloggin and all sorts of thins
[01:28:14] <johnny> things*
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[01:29:07] <Lirodon> yeah
[01:32:56] <Florob> truth be told: AFAIK there are 3 specs for microblogging (only one official though) all of them implemented, but none in "normal" clients
[01:33:44] <Zash> Florob: 3?
[01:34:36] <Florob> Zash, The XEP, the activity streams stuff from onesocialweb and buddycloud's channels
[01:35:33] <Zash> AFAIK, Diaspora-X and Jappix does something close enough to the XEP
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[01:36:02] <Zash> And I thougt that OSW weren't that far from it either
[01:36:22] <Florob> Zash, nope. Diaspora-X switched to buddycloud's protocol
[01:37:26] <Florob> I think they all involve atom and pubsub in some way, but still have enough differences
[01:37:30] <MattJ> So who's with me on mod_buddycloud? :)
[01:37:53] <Florob> With you as in?
[01:38:01] <MattJ> Developing it
[01:38:51] <MattJ> It's essentially mod_pubsub with some parts of the bikeshed painted different colours
[01:39:15] <Zash> :D
[01:40:00] <Florob> Get me some node deletion, then we'll see :P
[01:40:17] <MattJ> ok ok :)
[01:40:30] <MattJ> I think I'll finish my 0.8 commits first though ;)
[01:40:59] <Zash> MattJ: Yes please ;P
[01:41:24] <Florob> On a more serious note: I actually like buddycloud best out of the three, so I'd be up for volunteering some of my very limited free time.
[01:41:56] <MattJ> Likewise
[01:42:26] <MattJ> It's also the easiest within reach, since they didn't go and invent a completely new set of specs that don't work without server modifications :)
[01:42:49] <johnny> what about TextOne? lol..
[01:42:56] <Florob> no. The XEP is easiest. Because it's client only
[01:43:11] <Florob> as far as additional protocol goes
[01:43:15] <MattJ> johnny, don't, just don't :)
[01:43:31] <johnny> yeah for real..
[01:43:33] <MattJ> johnny, especially not with Florob here :)
[01:43:42] <Tobias> heh
[01:43:45] <Florob> Yes, you'll bring out my "online behaviour" again
[01:43:57] <MattJ> I've heard all about it
[01:43:59] <johnny> sure, but it's fun for me to watch :)
[01:44:00] <MattJ> and I'm scared
[01:44:01] <johnny> hah
[01:44:34] <Tobias> including a free course in set theory :)
[01:44:37] <MattJ> :)
[01:44:41] <MattJ> :D
[01:45:24] <Florob> http://xkcd.com/386/
[01:46:04] <MattJ> :)
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[17:45:07] <Zash> Is there a public ejabberd pubsub host somewhere?
[18:01:05] <Florob> Zash, as in server anyone can register to that runs ejabberd with pubsub enabled?
[18:01:41] <Florob> jabber.ccc.de fits that bill
[18:01:43] <Zash> Nm, I found one, got the XML I needed :)
[18:02:06] <Zash> And I think I found the prosody bug that I thougt was fixed already
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[20:38:42] <justin> i have a need for a xep-60 publisher to be copied on an item he publishes, but without having to be a subscriber
[20:39:55] <justin> 7.1.2 says that a success case of publishing can include an empty item so that the publisher knows the id
[20:40:01] <justin> hmm, that might actually be enough since i wanted the id
[20:40:26] <justin> but i thought maybe the whole item could go in there too rather than be just empty with id
[20:44:23] <Link Mauve> justin, in my implementation, any publisher/owner receives the notification as if he/she was a subscriber.
[20:44:42] <Link Mauve> It’s how I read the XEP.
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[20:46:27] <justin> hmm, i don't see that
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[20:52:26] <Zash> Link Mauve: So the publisher is a subscriber by default?
[20:57:41] <Link Mauve> Zash, no, he isn’t listed as a subscriber, he can’t manage its subscription until he actually subscribes, but he receives default notifications.
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